2015 ToB Competition Discussion Showing 1,001-1,050 of 1,076

[Juniper]

ha, kerry! (your AUS notes.) luckily, as you say, this hate-reading experience hasn't happened to me too often either. sadly, though, i just experienced it two weekends ago, and it's still fresh and seething in my brain. they do tend to stick around when they occur, don't they? my current refrain over the book i ended up hate-reading: "how? how? HOW?! it's only getting published because of who they are!" my husband is laughing at me so hard for all my muttering. though i did try to be not totally horrible when reviewing the book. sigh.

[Brian]

Today's judgment may be regarded as mean, but it was no where near as eviscerating as Natasha Vargas-Cooper with regards to The Fault in Our Stars vs. Building Stories a couple years ago.

http://www.themorningnews.org/tob/201...

I have not yet read An Untamed State nor All the Light We Cannot See, but it did feel callously dismissive of Judge Merritt to boil down An Untamed State to "don't pay the ransom." It almost seems like he missed the entire point of the novel.

I will be rooting heartily for Station Eleven tomorrow in the final!

[Gayla]

Oh, yes, that Vargas-Cooper judgment was also awful, and another instance of willfully misreading the books in question.

[[deleted user]]

Brian wrote: "Today's judgment may be regarded as mean, but it was no where near as eviscerating as Natasha Vargas-Cooper with regards to The Fault in Our Stars vs. Building Stories a couple years ago.

http://w..."

I revisited that judgment when it was referenced on Friday. Like today, Kevin and John were pretty tough on Vargas-Cooper over her (unfairly?) harsh criticism of both books. They were annoyed by her treatment of TFioS, but they were ANGRY about her dismissal of Building Stories. She was definitely the curmudgeon judge (Peck award winner) last year!

[Juniper]

the lopsidedness today really surprised me!

[Jen]

I had predicted a 12-5 win for Station Eleven, but I must say the almost-sweep did not surprise me. It feels like the absolutely right winner. Looking forward to that watch list!

[Juniper]

i feel like entertainment value was the big draw for the S11 win this year. is that an appropriate feeling, do you guys think? i found The Good Lord Bird highly entertaining and was thrilled with its win last year... but it feels different. (but that might be my lingering sadness over All My Puny Sorrows not making the cut (yes, still!!) and Those Who Leave and Those Who Stay not winning the rooster! i feel that ferrante would accept a live chicken. heh!

i am totally looking forward to the watch list too, jen! :)

[Sherri]

As someone who complains about not having enough time to read, I somehow read 15 out of the 16 books this year + both trilogies. Even though it got a bit overwhelming at times, I"m thankful for the exposure to so many authors and books I wouldn't have found otherwise; most notably the Ferrante books, Area X and A Brave Man. I'm excited that the winner is a book I can recommend to pretty much anyone.

I loved Delicious Foods and will be looking for it in the final 4 next year.

[Ellen]

On your recommendation, Sherri, I'm putting Delicious Foods on my list.

[Beth]

I have a gift card and plan to buy Delicious Foods today.

[Lark]

I can't tell if my let-down feeling this morning is because the TOB is over, or because I'm sad that the two safest, book clubbiest of these 16 novels prevailed in the final. Death to the Zombie Round!

[Juniper]

i debate the zombie idea every year. i theory, i like it. in practice, it bums me out quite often. i think most of it is tied to the timing for when the zombies come in, but i can't think of an alternative.

[Ed]

It always feels like the last day of summer camp when the Rooster is crowned!

Thanks again everyone for a great few months of speculation (who will make the long/short list?), reading, and discussion. Forget about Christmas, this is truly the most wonderful time of the year!

Looking forward to jumping on new 2015 reads and guessing next year's competitors. Tho still feel I have some some unfinished business with this year's list as do want/fully intend to get to the Ferrante series and finish up the Area X trilogy.

See you all in the 2016 Possible Contenders (already on its 4th page -- remember when we didn't start that thread until ToB was over).

Here's to books -- and readers, cheers!

[Topher]

As i said in the comments: TOB 2015--The year we believed in hope (all signs to the contrary).

I'm not sure that's a positive or a negative, really.

[Topher]

Jennifer wrote: "i debate the zombie idea every year. i theory, i like it. in practice, it bums me out quite often. i think most of it is tied to the timing for when the zombies come in, but i can't think of an alt..."

I've always thought that the two zombies, at the least, should be pitted against themselves. I'm not sure which book the winner would face then, but it seems somehow more "fair"

[Drew]

Ed wrote: "It always feels like the last day of summer camp when the Rooster is crowned!

Thanks again everyone for a great few months of speculation (who will make the long/short list?), reading, and discuss..."

Yes, it's a sad day when the TOB is over. I'm reading Authority now then will move on to Brown Girl Dreaming then on to next year's contenders.

[Juniper]

Topher wrote: "I've always thought that the two zombies, at the least, should be pitted against themselves. I'm not sure which book the winner would face then, but it seems somehow more "fair"

ah - yes! i had that thought as well. so then only one zombie could ever be in a final.

[[deleted user]]

Topher wrote: "As i said in the comments: TOB 2015--The year we believed in hope (all signs to the contrary).

I didn't realize that was you, Topher. Great summation of ToB 2015.

[Kerry]

Poingu,

I share your tears over an all book-club-approved final. After a decade or so, I think this will look like one of the weakest Finals for the ToB. Still, I am happy to have read the Ferrante trilogy, Annihilation, and A Brief History of Seven Killings and I wouldn't have read them but for the ToB, so it is still a win.

And there's always next year when we can hope that the one truly brilliant gem from the year will, actually, thrillingly take the title. Of course, we'll all disagree on which book is The One.

[Kerry]

Jennifer,

Regarding seething: Yes. Especially, when you read it for a book club and, as you or Poingu said, you show up ready to trash this colossal waste of a good tree and everyone starts praising it. The polite thing to do, I suppose, is sit quietly. Very quietly. So I did, this time. But, sheesh, it is hard not to ask to your left and right, "Can I check to see if your book looks the same as mine does, on the inside?"

The last one I read, which I will not name for fear someone buys and reads it out of morbid curiosity, was a non-fiction book that read like unedited research notes, at best. And the research consisted primarily of interviews with scattered references to other non-fiction. So, you'd be reading an unedited transcript of an interview, or so it felt, then, with nary a transition, a half-assed book summary, then back to transcript. I should have done more muttering to my wife....it maybe would have spared you. As you can see, I cannot let it go. It sticks. Yeah. It does.

[Brian]

I guess I'm not quite understanding all of the dislike of Station Eleven? I haven't read All the Light yet, but while I can certainly understand some of the criticism of Station Eleven (abrupt tonal changes while we oscillate between Arthur's story and the fallen world, for one) but I still felt it was a wonderful novel. The real sense of loss over how much the world changed overnight truly powered the narrative and six months later I still find myself thinking about it from time to time. I think that's what it really nailed over other post-apocalyptic novels - that even once civilization had fallen that we would try to memorialize it and resurrect it where we can.

I'd be interested in what exactly the criticism of it being a "book club" book even means? Again, I'm not trying to criticize anyone here, just defending a book that really meant a lot to me.

[Lark]

Brian wrote: "I guess I'm not quite understanding all of the dislike of Station Eleven? I haven't read All the Light yet, but while I can certainly understand some of the criticism of Station Eleven (abrupt tona..."

Brian, I called the two finalists "the book-clubbiest" of the TOB contenders. By that I meant that they are very enjoyable, stylistically traditional, rewarding enough, but not very challenging reads--which is exactly the kind of book that everyone picks for their book club, which is exactly why these both fell into the category of "literary bestseller."

I would have preferred one of the more challenging, risky, quirky, pick-your-vector TOB novels to have won, rather than Station Eleven. I enjoyed Station Eleven a lot but there was nothing that knocked my socks off about it and so giving it the prize felt like regressing toward the mean.

[Brian]

I suppose I can see Station Eleven as not challenging if you take it entirely at face value, but I think there's a lot going on below the surface if you take the time to find it. The selection of King Lear as Arthur's final play feels fairly purposeful to me, for instance, but not seeing why that might be the case doesn't detract from the experience of the book. I think the image of one of the characters dying on the beach as the flu set in will stay with me a long time, and I think that's because the novel fundamentally speaks to mortality and how absolutely delicate and precarious our modern civilization really is. To me, the themes that Station Eleven grappled with were challenging and there were many layers to pull apart if you so wished, but I can see your point that it's certainly more accessible than others in the ToB. Accessibility for me though isn't a bad thing - I'd rather a book that I can recommend to others and that can speak to a wide audience than one that is a struggle for most readers to even approach. But I guess that's what it boils down to ultimately for me and for everyone here - it's all about what strikes your particular fancy rather than there being an objectively obvious superior book.

I will say that I think the current format usually prefers a popular book to a risky one. This is due to the zombie round and the fact that as near as I can tell the ToB tends to select judges who are not necessarily entrenched in fiction to judge the zombie round (i.e. Judge Merritt).

[Lark]

Brian wrote: "I suppose I can see Station Eleven as not challenging if you take it entirely at face value, but I think there's a lot going on below the surface if you take the time to find it. The selection of K..."

Thanks Brian. I totally hear what you're saying. You're right about the scenes you mention and their staying power. Frankly I enjoyed reading Station Eleven a great deal more than the book I thought should have won, Brief History of Seven Killings. I'm not sure why I'd pick James or Ball or Gay or one of the other novels. But maybe this is one of my criteria: a novel that wins a prize should be something no one else in this world could have written. I feel that way about James's book and I don't feel that way about Mandel's book.

This is kind of like the Avatar vs. Hurt Locker argument I guess.

[Brian]

Aww Poingu, come on, that's not a fair comparison! The Hurt Locker is art, Avatar is not (other than the CGI being incredible, everyone pretty much universally acknowledges the story to be bankrupt). This is more of a The Hurt Locker vs. Up in the Air - Up in the Air is probably more accessible because its theme of loneliness and the reduction of humanity to a number is something more easily understood by a wide swath of moviegoers versus The Hurt Locker requiring more knowledge to truly understand its themes than the movie itself presents. I haven't read Brief History yet either, so I can't really comment, but from everything I've seen here it does sound incredible.

For me, every book I read in the ToB felt like only its author could've presented it - whether it be Ng's heartbreaking exploration of the dynamics of family in Everything I Never Told You or Offill's take on the challenges of marriage, I really felt each voice was distinctive. But I can understand what you're saying - James's book does sound from everything I've heard to be an achievement and one that will be lauded for many years to come. In the end, I feel that way about Station Eleven as well, but as you can tell I'm pretty biased on the matter!

[Lark]

Brian wrote: "Aww Poingu, come on, that's not a fair comparison! The Hurt Locker is art, Avatar is not (other than the CGI being incredible, everyone pretty much universally acknowledges the story to be bankrupt..."

Sorry! Bad example. I just meant by Hurt Locker vs. Avatar that people giving awards frequently snoot upon the more commercially successful option. And I'm pretty baffled by my own criteria for worthiness and I'm really aware through posting here over the last few weeks that I contradict myself all the time. I'm learning a lot though.

[[deleted user]]

Brian wrote: "I guess I'm not quite understanding all of the dislike of Station Eleven?"

Station Eleven is a great very good novel and a worthy ToB champion. It was the book I most enjoyed reading. But, I also liked All the Light, and I would have been satisfied with either of them as the winner. Still, A Brief History was my favorite book, in part because it was challenging for me. Also, it had such a strong voice, and it was risky--not something I would read in my book clubs.

[Jen]

I also feel Station Eleven is a worthy winner and was pleased with the result. But the points coming through in this discussion ring true for me. There is something thrilling in the TOB about a more polarizing title advancing, even when you really dislike the book. I buy into a collective sense of 'tournament duty' to uncover (relatively) hidden gems, not simply to concur with this big book chains. But that's not to say a popular book can't be great. We should welcome that many people are reading these stories.

I guess the obvious answer is to do one of two things: don't select any widely read / 'popular' titles for the tournament, or change the zombie round (maybe, as suggested elsewhere, pitting zombies against each other earlier so that only one advances).

[Gayla]

I do think the zombie round needs to be changed somehow.

I don't want them to stop selecting "popular" titles, though. Part of the fun is seeing the widely read books of the year pitted against books that aren't well known.

[Brian]

I feel that the ToB has done its duty in helping people to find unknown gems - I may have never heard of A Brief History if not for this contest, and I do pride myself as one who has at least a general knowledge of critically acclaimed books. It doesn't have to win the Rooster to pique many people's interest.

And let's face it, the Rooster historically has not gone to unknowns for the most part. In the eleven contests held so far, four winners have gotten the Pulitzer, one the Booker, and one the National Book Award. Of the five remaining, one is by Toni Morrison and one is Cloud Atlas. The other three are The Accidental, The Sisters Brothers, and Station Eleven. It would seem clear that even if the Rooster is supposed to be somewhat of a parody of book awards, it still manages to go to the highly praised books nevertheless.

I would agree that perhaps the Zombie round could be muted somewhat, as the most popular books are sometimes not the best (though Orphan Master's Son was a zombie and I think you'd get little argument that it was the best that year). Perhaps have the two Zombies go against each other and the two semifinalists go against each other for a Zombie-semifinalist final?

[Gayla]

Yeah, it's always been interesting to me that although part of the point of the Rooster is to show how arbitrary literary awards are, the winners tend to be books that also win literary awards.

[Juniper]

brian - The Sisters Brothers, The Accidental and Station Eleven have all amassed some serious award cachet.

[Brian]

Jennifer - I have no doubt that they do, I was just trying to dash off my comment quickly by thinking about the big three (Pulitzer, Booker, National Book Award). I only separated Cloud Atlas because it is beyond well known at this point.

[Juniper]

heh - that it is. :) my canadian pride kicked in over patrick dewitt (even though he lives in the US now). TSB alternated so many award wins with esi edugyan's Half Blood Blues in 2012/2013 i kept waiting and waiting for all the hubbub to die down for each novel before i began reading them. finally, read them both in the past year and loved them both too.

[Gayla]

I've got to reread Half Blood Blues. I didn't get the hype when I read it the first time, but I think I rushed through it a little bit.

[Kerry]

Brian,

Just for my two cents, I agree with Poingu that the criteria for a book club book involves accessibility. You are right that there are some interesting ideas in Station Eleven, but, for me, they were more alluded to than explored. I feel the same about All the Light. In fact, I thought the two followed a very similar framework.

1. Very good writing, but not stylistically inventive (i.e. Much to like, but nothing that might turn people off)

2. Likeable protagonists, though All the Light was the safest in this regard by including a golden-hearted, bookish, blind girl. I am not sure it is possible to get more likeable than that.

3. A cartoonish villain to drive plot and provide suspense.

4. Some moral questions, but mostly it was telegraphed where the 'good' was. Readers can feel good about themselves for being on the right side.

5. Interesting ideas (rebuilding/preserving society, communication/human connection in the face of evil), but more available to the reader than explored. I doubt many readers will disagree regarding preserving culture or recognizing fascism is bad but good people are caught up in war machinery on both sides, it sucks to be disconnected and aren't we so much more connected now but kind of not too?

6. References and parallels to classic literature to give people something to discuss. (Same thing really: main, root-for-them characters who love books, I.e. Characters just like the readers).

7. Not a book club thing, but the best part of both novels were objects: the wood-carved miniature city and the graphic novel.

There isn't much to hate (other than the villains) and there is much to like. As someone said, they are books you can recommend to anyone which is another way of saying they won't challenge anyone's moral / philosophical / aesthetic / etc. sensibilities much, if at all.

[Gayla]

You know, I can't really argue with what you've said--it's essentially my argument against All the Light--but at the same time Station Eleven just clicked with me. (Although I don't think the best part of Station Eleven is the graphic novel). Whereas I found much to admire in A Brief History and Those Who Leave and Those Who Stay, but they just left me cold.

And as far as A Brief History goes, by the end I was really dreading picking it up. I REALLY dislike dialect in pretty much any form, so that's part of it. But I also think that at some point "challenging" becomes "inaccessible" and I think that's a bug, not a feature.

[Juniper]

Gayla wrote: "I've got to reread Half Blood Blues. I didn't get the hype when I read it the first time, but I think I rushed through it a little bit."

you know, i actually had fairly low expectations going into it - so many people i know found it really... lacking, and confused by the awards it was nominated for or won. so i was happily surprised with it. i just read it at the end of january (this year) and i am sure it will be on my favourite reads list at year's end.

[Drew]

Tina wrote: "Brian wrote: "I guess I'm not quite understanding all of the dislike of Station Eleven?"

Station Eleven is a great very good novel and a worthy ToB champion. It was the book I most enjoyed reading..."

Tina, you articulated my feelings better than I could. And I do feel ABHoSK was an important book even though that's not a criteria for the TOB. I probably wouldn't have read it if it hadn't been included and I'm very glad I did (although I didn't always feel that way while I was reading it).

[Kerry]

Gayla,

I really didn't mean those points (other than cartoon villain) as necessarily knocks. Both books were enjoyable and lots of people like them, so their authors have made something pretty and, so, improved the world. And, as you say, I am sure plenty of people really connected with both of them. One of my favorite novels, My Antonia, probably fits fairly well into those categories too. (Of course, I think it is a cut above, but it connected meaningfully with me.). Like everyone, if the book connects, I can love a book even it isn't big-C challenging, but if it doesn't connect, it is just okay. The same is probably true for challenging books. We connect and get lost in a great experience. We don't and maybe focus on flaws.

I was mainly just trying to describe common features of at least one sort of book-club book, and where these two overlap.

[Kerry]

Gayla,

I really didn't mean those points (other than cartoon villain) as necessarily knocks. Both books were enjoyable and lots of people like them, so their authors have made something pretty and, so, improved the world. And, as you say, I am sure plenty of people really connected with both of them. One of my favorite novels, My Antonia, probably fits fairly well into those categories too. (Of course, I think it is a cut above, but it connected meaningfully with me.). Like everyone, if the book connects, I can love a book even it isn't big-C challenging, but if it doesn't connect, it is just okay. The same is probably true for challenging books. We connect and get lost in a great experience. We don't and maybe focus on flaws.

I was mainly just trying to describe common features of at least one sort of book-club book, and where these two overlap.

[Kerry]

Gayla,

I really didn't mean those points (other than cartoon villain) as necessarily knocks. Both books were enjoyable and lots of people like them, so their authors have made something pretty and, so, improved the world. And, as you say, I am sure plenty of people really connected with both of them. One of my favorite novels, My Antonia, probably fits fairly well into those categories too. (Of course, I think it is a cut above, but it connected meaningfully with me.). Like everyone, if the book connects, I can love a book even it isn't big-C challenging, but if it doesn't connect, it is just okay. The same is probably true for challenging books. We connect and get lost in a great experience. We don't and maybe focus on flaws.

I was mainly just trying to describe common features of at least one sort of book-club book, and where these two overlap.

[Drew]

Gayla wrote: "I've got to reread Half Blood Blues. I didn't get the hype when I read it the first time, but I think I rushed through it a little bit."

Yes, HBB didn't wow me as much as I expected. I may have rushed it or maybe my expectations were too high. This is one I might revisit to see if my feelings changed. I just couldn't believe I didn't love it!

[Kerry]

Can anyone delete duplicate posts? Sorry!

[Kerry]

I liked Half-blood Blues. I didn't love it. I can't now say why.

[[deleted user]]

Drew wrote: "...you articulated my feelings better than I could."

Thanks! Your reply makes me laugh because I have used those exact words so often to describe other people's posts.

[Juniper]

@ drew and @ kerry and @ gala -- i think because my expectations for HBB were so low... it was all such a pleasant surprise. i think i still would have found the writing strong even if the story hadn't worked for me. edugyan certainly has some writerly skills! :)

[emily]

I wish the zombie round voting could happen later--didn't they ask for zombie votes right when the short list came out? Then everybody just votes for the book they like most out of what they've already read, which inevitably are the books that have been on the mainstream radar... Couldn't we have some time to digest the more unexpected reads before choosing favorites? I wonder if that would have changed the outcome this year.

[Juniper]

yes! that would be great, emily! i think we talked about that around here earlier in the tournament. i know for me, i had only read 2 of the 16 books before voting ended. so... that wasn't helpful for me. (i was meh about both books.) other people had better luck with their reading before the contenders were announced, though. :)

[Ohenrypacey]

Gayla wrote: "I do think the zombie round needs to be changed somehow.

I don't want them to stop selecting "popular" titles, though. Part of the fun is seeing the widely read books of the year pitted against b..."

I totally agree with this. what's the point of having judgments if they are going to be negated by a popularity contest?
We got 2 book-club favorites in the finals because they were accessible to the most people pre-tourney, got the most zombie votes and despite being beaten in the early rounds, were 'resurrected'. bleh.
My vote would be 1 zombie, or have the zombies face off in one semi and the winners bracket face off in the other, so it doesn't shake out to be z vs z in the final ever.
I am on record elsewhere in my dislike of Station Eleven for all the reasons.