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Orlando
Orlando - Spine 2015
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Discussion - Week One - Orlando - Chapter I - III
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I really didn't know very much about ORLANDO at all before I started reading--what I did think I knew about it seemed wrong; I had thought I'd heard it had something to do with sexual identity, but it took so long getting round to that aspect of it, I had about convinced myself that I'd heard wrong. I was surprised then, to get to the mid-way point of the third chapter. I was also surprised by what I felt was a completely different style that what Woolf had used in TO THE LIGHTHOUSE. I was expecting more of the same, I suppose--and now that I've looked it up, I see the two were published only a year apart, which makes it even more surprising.
At this point in the reading, I'm still experiencing the visceral effect of the story--I'm not able to grasp the deeper themes as of yet. I think my only point so far would be to note the comparison between the ideas expressed in the quoted paragraph above--that of the gulf between the real and our communication of the real--and the parallel construction of one's real identity (sexual or otherwise) and the way we communicate that identity to the world around us.
I look forward to hearing what others picked out of the reading.
Mod
Yes, the writing style is much more straightforward than her SOC style in To the Lighthouse. If anything, she uses elements of magical realism.
Woolf had been romantically involved with Vita Sackville-West, and many have drawn parallels between Orlando and Woolf's real-life affair with V.S-W. A lot of Orlando's contemplation of gender and how it manifests in Elizabethan, and later Victorian British society I'm sure comes from Woolf's own meditations on the subject, especially since she was married when she had her affair with V.S-W. A Room of One's Own, which was published a year after Orlando, is in some ways a non-fiction version of the gender politics Orlando muses about. (If you have the time, AROOO would be a great follow-up read to Orlando)
Without trying to draw too many parallels between fictional Orlando and real life Woolf, I would say that some of Orlando's introspection, moodiness, and naivete seem to reflect Woolf's own biography. Again, not trying to equate one with the other, but it is curious that Woolf included "A Biography" in the title.
A big theme that is trotted out repeatedly is the deception and unreliability of humans versus the nobility of the animal world. Once bitten twice shy Orlando seems to find greater comfort in his Elk Hounds than in his human relationships. Orlando also seems to have a difficult time understanding how other people "work" and why they behave as they do.
Would be curious to hear what people think about the multiple mentions of Orlando's legs...
Hey guys, I'm a bit in a love/hate relationship with this book... I read all three first chapters.At first I didn't really like it as I guess I was expecting that Woolf I knew from Mrs. Dalloway and To The Lighthouse. But the idea of the book keeps haunting me... and I keep contradicting myself in my thoughts: while I wish she would deepen in her analysis and completely dissect Orlando's character - like Proust does and to whom I'm already so used to -, I know this isn't the type of book as it is supposed to be a biography, which leaves me a bit cold. But at the same time I think she was brilliant in writing this in a biography style, so original, and leaving behind her conventional prose and her stream of consciousness style, thus proving how versatile a writer she was.
I still haven't completed the reading section but with regard to Woolf and Sackville-West's relationship and how it relates to the book, I thought I'd post this tidbit I found:The idea was born on the 5th October 1927. In her diary, she (Woolf) wrote:
"And instantly the unusual exciting devices enter my mind: a biography beginning in the year 1500 and continuing to the present day, called Orlando: Vita, only with a change about from one sex to another.
She then wrote to Vita (9th October):
"Yesterday morning I was in despair.... I couldn't screw a word from me; and at last dropped my head in my hands: dipped my pen in the ink, and wrote these words, as if automatically, on a clean sheet: Orlando: A Biography. No sooner had I done this than my body was flooded with rapture and my brain with ideas. I wrote rapidly till 12... But listen: suppose Orlando turns out to be Vita; and it's all about you and the lusts of your flesh and the lure of your mind (heart you have none, who go gallivanting down the lanes with Campbell).... Shall you mind? Say yes, or No... "
And Vita responded (11th October):
"My God, Virginia, if ever I was thrilled and terrified it is at the prospect of being projected into the shape of Orlando! What fun for you; what fun for me.... You have my full permission. "
source: Behold the Stars
Mod
She's no Stephen King...
Each of her books varies in some way from the others.
I'm almost finished, and one characteristic that flows throughout the novel is mentions of color, sometimes singly, sometimes three or more colors together. I haven't quite processed why she does this so often.
Cphe wrote: "Cleo, I read somewhere in my travels that Woolf's son wrote of Orlando being a "love letter""Hi Cphe! I'm going to keep that in mind as I read it. So far I see more Vita in it than Woolf, but I'm still early in the read, so that could change. I must say that I'm loving Woolf's descriptions and flow of words. It's not SOC like To the Lighthouse but her mind still flits here and there like a butterfly. I know some people find that particular trait annoying in her writing, but I find it soothing.
Jim wrote: "Woolf had been romantically involved with Vita Sackville-West, and many have drawn parallels between Orlando and Woolf's real-life affair with V.S-W"The edition I'm reading has a lengthy (11% of the ebook!) introduction by Maria DiBattista which is quite informative. In regards to Vita Sackwille-West, not only did Woolf dedicate the book to her, she plundered the history of Vita's ancestors (on which Vita had just written a book) for Orlando's lineage.
Orlando is so recognizably Vita that Vita's mother apparently became incensed that Orlando changed gender and sexual orientation, as it publicly depicted Vita as a lesbian.
I've started, I'm late, but so far I'm really enjoying it. I had already read it, once, but it was like 20 years ago in college, and I had forgotten pretty much everything about it. In particular, I had forgotten how funny it is; I did expect to be laughing while reading Woolf.
Which part were you laughing at, Nicole?
The overwrought elizabethan things, the fake photos, the fake lost in a fire documents, the fake dedication/thanks...pretty much throughout. Am I alone in finding this funny?
Nicole wrote: "The overwrought elizabethan things, the fake photos, the fake lost in a fire documents, the fake dedication/thanks...pretty much throughout. Am I alone in finding this funny?"No, you are not the only one. :)
You're certainly not alone, Nicole; I was just curious. :-)
Jim wrote: "Would be curious to hear what people think about the multiple mentions of Orlando's legs... ..."
My friend, who knows quite a bit about Woolf, tells me that Woolf was impressed with Vita's legs. To quote from a couple of her letters:
"Oh they are exquisite - running like slender pillars up into her trunk, which is that of a breastless cuirassier"
and:
"very striking; like a willow tree; so dashing, on her long white legs with a crimson bow; but rather awkward, forced indeed to take her stockings down and rub her legs with ointment at dinner, owing to midges - I like this in the aristocracy. I like the legs; I like the bites; I like the complete arrogance and unreality of their minds. "
Cleo wrote: ""Oh they are exquisite - running like slender pillars up into her trunk, which is that of a breastless cuirassier""Pics or GTFO! ;)
Actually, "breastless cuirassier" sounds a trifle horrific.
Finally made it through chapter 2. They really don't shut up about Orlando's legs, do they?
Nicole wrote: "The overwrought elizabethan things, the fake photos, the fake lost in a fire documents, the fake dedication/thanks...pretty much throughout. Am I alone in finding this funny?"I find that funny as well. No evidence to back up anything the biographer has written. Also the only documents that miraculously survived are the ones exalting Orlando as if everyone was enchanted by him. And the biographer pointed out these letters as if letters to people that were not there would somehow have burned up in the fire as well.
Mkfs wrote: "Cleo wrote: ""Oh they are exquisite - running like slender pillars up into her trunk, which is that of a breastless cuirassier""Pics or GTFO! ;)
Actually, "breastless cuirassier" sounds a trifle..."
Oh the Legs! The Legs! My understanding that legs were indeed a very important feature during this era. Hence why so many fellows took pictures of themselves with one leg hitched up on a stool or something.
I'm getting the general feeling that Orlando was not shocked by his/her transformation so that we the readers should not put much stock into it but I can't help but be like WHAT?!?Also, I'm thinking that Woolf expects us to see that Orlando has not changed mentally just physically which leans towards the idea that men and women essentially are the same mentally. As well as the idea that human longings do not change through the ages just societies expectation of actions change.
I'm only on the third chapter and I've been reading in fits and starts (I have a 1 year old at home and my reading time has greatly reduced) so i'm slowly getting a feel for the writing and the rhythm of the novel. I'm so perplexed by the entire thing.
Also if this is a love letter to Vita, I'm wondering how really in love was Woolf with Vita because I don't get a very flattering feel for Orlando at all. Maybe Orlando's lineage was a nod to Vita but surely Woolf thought more of Vita than an attractive physique and mediocre writing.
I'm getting the general feeling that Orlando was not shocked by his/her transformation so that we the readers should not put much stock into it but I can't help but be like WHAT?!?Also, I'm thinking that Woolf expects us to see that Orlando has not changed mentally just physically which leans towards the idea that men and women essentially are the same mentally. As well as the idea that human longings do not change through the ages just societies expectation of actions change.
I have just started the third chapter. I'm still trying to get the rhythm down of the writing because with a 1 year old I have to read in fits and starts, which I've never been good at.
Felicia wrote: "Also, I'm thinking that Woolf expects us to see that Orlando has not changed mentally just physically which leans towards the idea that men and women essentially are the same mentally. As well as the idea that human longings do not change through the ages just societies expectation of actions change.. ..."That's a good point, Felicia. In spite of Orlando being somewhat removed from his surroundings by the style of the writing, it would probably be wise to pay attention to how people around him/her respond to him/her.
Felicia wrote: "My understanding that legs were indeed a very important feature during this era. Hence why so many fellows took pictures of themselves with one leg hitched up on a stool or something. "Ah right, there was that whole fad started by Louis XIV. Who had some pretty shapely gams, apparently. Hmm, did *he* ever turn into a woman?
Cleo wrote: "In spite of Orlando being somewhat removed from his surroundings by the style of the writing, it would probably be wise to pay attention to how people around him/her respond to him/her."
The beginning of chapter 4 covers that quite well actually, both in terms of whether people react to the change, and how Orlando's mind does or does not also change. Best left for the other discussion, of course.
What I'm primarily picking up is how disappointing the hunt for Romance is for Orlando. His adoration of the Russian s/he went South when she proved fickle and a deserter. The fun of outfitting and refurbishing his properties paled. The glories of hosting parties and socializing dulled.The soulful attempt at Poetry went sour when Orlando met and tried to discuss the heartache of symbolic Beauty, Poetry and Art with a much too ordinary human poet who hated the mournful quiet of the country and longed for the noisy din of the city. When Lust came a'calling, Orlando left England and tried public service in romantic ancient Turkey, which ended up in days of stifling ritual boredom.
In the first part of the book, I don't feel that I know who Orlando really is -- what makes him unique, what motivates him. Mostly he reacts to situations based on society's expectations. I am an aristocratic man-child so I write poetry. I am a young man so I have many shallow dalliances. I am now of the age for a great love so I find one. It will be interesting to see if and how this changes. Maybe when he changes sex. Or perhaps it doesn't -- perhaps Orlando always acts as society expects. Is Orlando just a biography of the times in which s/he lives or does s/he learn from these experiences?
Mod
Yes, I think this is a good way to look at Orlando, and also as a mirror/commentary of British society - especially the upper class - over time.
Kathy wrote: "In the first part of the book, I don't feel that I know who Orlando really is -- what makes him unique, what motivates him. Mostly he reacts to situations based on society's expectations. I am an..."I have been reading A Very Close Conspiracy: Vanessa Bell and Virginia Woolf by Jane Dunn. The whole Bloomsbury milieu and the men and women who populated it have been adding much to understanding Virginia's fiction. (I still haven't read Hermione Lee's bio, except a few excerpts. Too long!) The homes of V&V seem filled with men like Orlando, observed by V&V, during a time when Virginia was entranced by Lady Nicolson (Vita Sackville-West). Most were brilliant and/or talented, like Maynard Keynes and Duncan Grant. Like Virginia, they struggled with finding fulfilling partners for their passions, whether physical, intellectual, or artistic/creative.
aPriL does feral sometimes wrote: "...When Lust came a'calling, Orlando left England and tried public service in romantic ancient Turkey, which ended up in days of stifling ritual boredom...."Rather like Virginia's eventual husband, Leonard Woolf, when he went to Ceylon (Sri Lanka)?
Brain Pain
Books mentioned in this topic
A Very Close Conspiracy: Vanessa Bell and Virginia Woolf (other topics)To the Lighthouse (other topics)
A Room of One’s Own (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Jane Dunn (other topics)Hermione Lee (other topics)
He was describing, as all young poets are for ever describing, nature, and in order to match the shade of green precisely he looked (and here he showed more audacity than most) at the thing itself, which happened to be a laurel bush growing beneath the window. After that, of course, he could write no more. Green in nature is one thing, green in literature another. Nature and letters seem to have a natural antipathy; bring them together and they tear each other to pieces.
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