inconsistencies in GH

[Charlotte]

I wondered if we might have a topic on inconsistencies in GH. there are not many, but I just noticed that there is one I had never spotted myself in the ages table: Freddy in Cotillion is "of age (s.i.t. Ch. 7, Lord Legerwood) and is eighteen months younger than his sister Meg, Lady Buckhaven, who has been married for less than a year (s.i.t. Ch. 6, Lady L.) He is also "the eldest" (s.i.t. Ch. 16, Meg) which makes it impossible to put an age on him." I had always thought of him as being the eldest and in his mid twenties.

Also, one that strikes me every time I read The Nonesuch is that Patience is described as angelically fair at the beginning of the book but later she has soft brown hair (which is how I always imagine her).

Have people spotted any others?

[Moloch]

I've always assumed that Meg is older but Freddie is the eldest son.

edit: that's what I think that passage meant.

[Critterbee❇]

I always took that to mean that Freddy was the eldest son, which his mother calls him, and Meg was the eldest of the children. With only the eldest male able to inherit the 'important' stuff, an eldest female child was likely not considered the eldest child so much as the eldest daughter.

Lady Legerwood clears up the birth order on page 93

"My Benjamin so ill, not to mention his dear little sisters, and my eldest daughter – indeed, my eldest-born, for never shall I forget my disappointment when I learned I had given birth to a female, not that your papa ever spoke a word of blame to me, papa ever spoke a word of blame to me, and only eighteen months later you were born, my dearest, so all was right! "

[Rosina]

I agree that that is a definitive explanation.

But I find it hard to believe that Meg did not get married until she was past 21 (married a year, a year and a half older than Freddie, Freddie is already 21 ...)

[Margaret]

Rosina wrote:
But I find it hard to believe that Meg did not get married until she was past 21"

People keep saying this, but my response is "Pooh!" Somehow, readers have been brainwashed into believing a girl is a failure if she's not married by the end of her first season. But why should Meg be in a hurry? It's not like she's the daughter of a family in straitened circumstances with a slew of younger sisters breathing down her neck. She, and her family, can afford to take the time to look around and make the best choice.

[Moloch]

If I remember correctly, this was discussed when we were reading together "Cotillion".
It seems strange that Meg, coming from a wealthy and respected family, a pretty and lively lady, got married so "late" (late! :-D). This could be a little "mistake" by the author, but not something that is totally wrong and unbelievable, just a little detail that she didn't notice and that doesn't quite match but is not so important that it "ruins" the book.

[Susan in Perthshire]

The assumption that everyone married young and that a woman was past it by 20 is simply that - an assumption. The average age for a woman to marry at that time was mid 20s.

Statistics are always capable of being manipulated but I remember from studying this period that most historians agreed that in general, men and women tended to be in their 20s before they married. Of course some girls were married off at 17 or 18 but it appears that Heyer has turned this occasional occurrence into an inviolate Rule. Like everything she created in her fictional version of history - it is sometimes, but not always true.

[Ah]

But wealthier women did marry younger than average. If Meg came out at about 18 or so, then surely she would have been married within 2-3 years? After all, that was the point of a woman's existence, and there was a limited pool of eligible prospects, almost all of which would have been known to the family for years to some extent. Even without any particular pressure to marry quickly, there would come a point where Meg (and parents) would have had to decide the best of the options - the 'best' for a girl whose family was affectionate as well as socially and economically secure would have included personal inclination to a degree, but she wouldn't have been expecting love/finding a soulmate etc

Although the text says Meg is older, I never really got a sense that Meg was an older sister, Freddy's attitude to her is far more like his attitude to Charlie (keeping them out of scrapes). Of course, that might be a 'male strength and superiority' thing, but Freddy is not an alpha male...

So yes, I think it is a slight anomaly, but not jarring and I only notice it when it is pointed out, it doesn't leap out when I'm reading

[Rosina]

I don't believe the Meg we see could have survived 3 or 4 years of being 'out' without scandal! It only doesn't worry me because I don't believe the birth order given by Lady Legerwood.

[Moloch]

I'm fine with it. It doesn't bother me. I like to think that Meg's parents weren't particularly pressing her to get married as soon as possible but let her follow her inclinations. Maybe one can explain it by saying that Meg has been promised to her husband (name?) for a long time but he was often abroad (he is in China during "Cotillion" after all). But in the end it doesn't really matter to me, as I said.

And I also like that Meg is older than Freddy; it plays with the common perception that Freddy is not very bright, and instead he is, while his "big" sister thinks of herself as a sophisticated lady by now.

[QNPoohBear]

Susan in Perthshire wrote: "The assumption that everyone married young and that a woman was past it by 20 is simply that - an assumption. The average age for a woman to marry at that time was mid 20s.

Statistics are always ..."

Amanda Vickery found the average age of marriage in the Georgian period was 24 but yet 25 was "on the shelf" and Society had a horror of older women trying to appear younger.

Past the Bloom: Aging and Beauty in the Novels of Jane Austen
Stephanie M. Eddleman

Persuasions, the Journal of the Jane Austen Society of North America, Vol. 37, 2015, Pages 119-133

[Rosina]

Whatever reality was, and I am sure marriage age had a wide variation, it does seem to be a fact in the Heyer version of Regency ton that a young girl of good family (good in all senses) would be expecting to marry in her first or second season. Only if there was some counter-influence would she remain unwed by 21 (or if she needs to remain single to be the more mature heroine of one of the later novels, like Abigail Wendover). Meg's rackety behaviour does not suggest someone with four London Seasons under her belt.

[Charlotte]

Rosina wrote: "Meg's rackety behaviour does not suggest someone with four London Seasons under her belt.

I had always though that also, Rosina. However, Freddie's younger brother is at Oxford which means he must be 19 or 20, so Freddie must be 21 or 22 and that would put Meg as something between 22 and 24.

[Abigail]

I'm guessing that data on average age at marriage would have to be qualified by class. Wealthy people most likely married younger, on average, because they had fewer barriers to matrimony; poor people often paired up without a formal marriage, and working-class men had to save for years to be able to marry. So the data from the lower end of the economic spectrum would show later marriages and skew the overall average.

[Igenlode]

Abigail wrote: "I'm guessing that data on average age at marriage would have to be qualified by class. Wealthy people most likely married younger, on average, because they had fewer barriers to matrimony; poor peo..."

Yes. Only the wealthy could afford to marry young (including child brides in the Middle Ages where the marriage would not be consummated for years). Everyone else had to wait until they could afford it.
There's interesting data on the Northern versus Southern European marriage model; basically, in the south women married much younger and went to live in their mother-in-law's household. In the north, both parties would work and save for years until they had enough money to set up their own household. This had the coincidental side effect that the average number of children per woman was lower, because they were much older before they started reproducing.

The other thimg to bear in mind is that the average age on marriage includes remarriages; a not inconsiderable number of women were desirable partners in middle age because they were widows with property, and of course others were marrying widowers with children (and perhaps bringing children of their own). In any era with high mortality a lot of people married more than once.

[Abigail]

Good point about remarriages, Igenlode! I've seen lots of references to second marriages but never thought about it as a trend, or demographic reasons behind it.

[Charlotte]

Ah wrote: "Although the text says Meg is older, I never really got a sense that Meg was an older sister, Freddy's attitude to her is far more like his attitude to Charlie (keeping them out of scrapes). Of course, that might be a 'male strength and superiority' thing, but Freddy is not an alpha male..."

I have been rereading Cotillion and Freddy is really protrayed as the older brother. He knows things (crim cons) that Meg doesn't and as you say is looking out for her. It doesn't really worry me either: it is just intereting as GH is normally so clear and consistent.

[Nick]

Abigail, I'm sure you've read it, but I found The Gentleman's Daughter: Women's Lives in Georgian England eye-opening for a better understanding of marriage.

In particular, regarding second marriages, there's a gentleman in the book who loves his wife very much and she dies after giving him five children. For a while he tries to get by taking care of the kids himself with the help of a housekeeper, but he can't really find a good servant and he can't really keep up with his work, so he decides he has to remarry.

And it's really heart-breaking, Vickery quotes from his letters about how he feels like he's betraying the memory of the woman he loved by remarrying so soon, and also he's worried that it's so unfair on his new wife, who he will never be able to really love. So sad...

[Abigail]

I have the book but haven't read it! You remind me to pick it up the next time I have an open slot in the reading schedule. Thanks!