Dickensians! discussion
David Copperfield - Group Read 1
>
May - June 2020: David Copperfield: chapters 30 - 44
Uriah literally makes my skin crawl. I know it isn't very Victorian of me, but I keep imagining poor Agnes' wedding night and feeling nauseous. She is a prisoner of these horrid people and she cannot leave because of her father. Really, Dickens, please save her!If you could view Mr. Micawber before as harmless, it would be difficult to do so now that he has treated Traddles so poorly and thrown in with Uriah the Devil. I also felt so sorry for Mr. Wickfield, but I wish he could muster the strength to save Agnes.
I wonder about the status of David's education now that Mr. Spenlow is dead. Would a reference from such a firm be worth anything? And if the firm does not survive, is David left without his "articles" and without Aunt Betsey's money?
I get the impression that David will not get any money back if the firm goes under.
Sara wrote: "I know it isn't very Victorian of me, but I keep imagining poor Agnes' wedding night and feeling nauseous. She is a prisoner of these horrid people and she cannot leave because of her father. Really, Dickens, please save her!"Aahhh!! Sara, poor Agnes :-O
Yes, Dickens, please save her!
Mod
Up to now our view has been coloured by David's distaste of Uriah's physical appearance and demeanour, and Uriah Heep hadn't definitely done anything wrong. Now though, we have it from Mr Wickfield himself.
It also occurs to me that Uriah Heep and James Steerforth are both products of their upbringing, and both raised to conform to the Victorian ideal: to preserve their position and class. They are both now morally deficient, partly I think, through their rigid parental influence.
Yet we gave Steerforth a lot more rope than Uriah Heep, as we were persuaded by David's revulsion for Uriah that he was up to no good. Could it be that David is swayed by a pretty face, (of either gender), and he has a horror of deformity? And is Charles Dickens conscious of making him so?
Just as Dora has aspects that are based on more than one person in Charles Dickens's life, there's another person Uriah Heep could be based on (as well as poor Hans Christian Andersen). I'd written a post about "Mr X" but realise that it is a big spoiler, so I'll save it for a bit :)
Bionic Jean wrote: "David "had never doubted his meanness, his craft and malice" but now believes that Uriah's "base, unrelenting, and revengeful spirit, must have been engendered by this early, and this long, suppression."Uriah as a product of a charity school makes me think about a criticism of these schools, on the part of Dickens.
It reminds me of another boy who attended a charity school. He was in Oliver Twist, but I’m not sure. He was as base, and revengeful as David describes Uriah, and as coward as Uriah proves to be when Mr Wickfield gets mad after dinner.
Bionic Jean wrote: "I'd written a post about "Mr X" but realise that it is a big spoiler, so I'll save it for a bit :)"I'm looking forward to it :)
Mod
I think the character in Oliver Twist you're thinking of Milena, who attended a charity school and was a "base, and revengeful ... coward" was perhaps the scheming, hypocritical creep Noah Claypole.
When Charles Dickens wrote Oliver Twist, the first installments came out in 1837, and it was very soon after the "Poor Law Amendment Act" of 1834, and the whole novel is a bitter indictment of that Act, even to its satirical subtitle, "A Parish Boy's Progress". Poverty was believed to be the consequence of laziness; and dreadful conditions in the workhouse and to a certain extent charity schools, were intended to inspire the poor to better their own circumstances, whilst staying "in their place" in society.
Now we know this about Uriah's father and mother, we ought perhaps to feel a bit sorry for him! Uriah wanted to better himself, as did Em'ly, and as did David himself, who loathed being sent to work washing bottles and labelling them at Murdstone and Grinby's because he was, as they called him, "a little gentleman". We can imagine how other children would have treated Uriah, with all the writhing movements he couldn't help. What chance did he really have? So he resorted to sneakiness to get what he wanted.
It´s difficult to feel pity for this ultimate creep Uriah, esp. since he´s got an awful voice in the audiobook. Wish David could take Agnes away from there and marry her instead of this childish girly Dora!
I learned Pitman's as a trainee local newspaper journalist and still use it, but I don't think anyone else would be able to read my scrawl! I was really amused when David struggles to read his back early on, as that part is often the problem for me.
Funnily enough, it's the chapter where I felt the most benign for Uriah Heep... I know how rotten he is and I do hate him, but that school and his parents make you feel like he was conditioned to be like he is: 'umble (very ambitious), his mind is as tortured as his body.I do hope that little slip of Uriah has given a wake up call to Mr. Wickfield; he might have lost his name, his firm, but he still has a daughter to lose and he needs to defend her! I find Mr. Wickfield very frustrating.
Bionic Jean wrote: "Many schools in London are called after historical figures - often Victorians - and I know a "Gurney" school, which caters for special needs children, but can't discover whether there's a connection...."The Gurneys were a famous Quaker banking family in Norfolk, related to famous prison reformer Elizabeth Fry, so I'm guessing it may be a member of that family which set up the school.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurney_...
I am fascinated by the Frys and Gurneys because as a child I had a lovely book containing a Victorian diary by a member of the family and lots of drawings of their children - I just searched for it in the Goodreads database and couldn't find it, so I probably have the title wrong!
I've just found a page about the Thomas Gurney who invented the shorthand method - he was from Bedford but sounds as if he was related to the Norfolk Gurneys as the same ancestral document is mentioned in both articles.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_...
I wondered if Dickens intended to have us feel a bit sorry for Uriah when he gave us his background or only to say, "see what these kinds of institutions produce. They are not good for those in them, or even for society as a whole." I admit I felt not a whit of sympathy for Uriah. He is making a conscious choice to do what he is doing to Wickfield and nothing could justify that. Wickfield gave him a job and treated him well and it is obvious to me that Agnes is just a stepping stone for him. He is not in love with her, I'm not even sure he admires her good qualities, he just wants to have complete control and being the son-in-law would give him that 100% entirely.
Uriah reminds me of Gollem from Lord of the Rings. Both are "humble" and sneaky. (But I am just now on part 3 of Lord of the Rings. So I don't know how Gollem ends up.)
Mod
I think your latter thought is the correct one (as I suspect you do too, Sara :) ) because in everything Charles Dickens has written up to now, fact or fiction, he has condemned these sort of places. And what a creed to teach the children in them that as Uriah Heep's father said: "People like to be above you, keep yourself down" ie. to abase themselves is the only way to get ahead, because they are among people who pride themselves on their own inherent social superiority. Any intelligence, skills, merit and diligence they have, will count for nothing.
But the first part of your comment is what I was feeling for the first time. Because Charles Dickens is such a good observer of human nature, he is inviting us to form a more rounded picture of Uriah Heep than the obnoxious caricature we have seen hitherto.
The quotations I put in the summary show that it was slowly dawning on David, (and therefore us) why Uriah was as he was. All his training and experience of life has resulted in pent-up aggression which comes out as underhanded actions and mock servility. But the inability to see anything more noble in life is pitiable, surely? Who will ever love him for what he is, once his mother has gone? From this picture of him, I think he is destined for a lonely life without any friends.
It is also a bit of a puzzle to me, that Dickens has created such an unpleasant character, whom he damns firstly for having an unsightly disability, and secondly for his social climbing. Charles Dickens had been poor himself - and did plenty of social climbing in his lifetime! He seems ambivalent.
Mod
I think Dickens gives us examples of people in just as dire circumstances who live decent, moral lives and do not use their poverty as a reason to commit unpardonable sins against others. Dan Peggoty is a man in pretty much the same social stata as Uriah, but he is a good and decent man and would never do anything underhanded to gain a better position. I do feel horrible about what people in Uriah's situation were made to endure, but I don't find that it excuses him for me. I suppose I believe in free will enough to think that he makes a conscious choice to ruin a good man so that he can better himself. It helps me to understand how he became who he is, but it still leaves him an unpardonable monster in my eyes. I suspect Dickens was torn (as I am) by this dilemma. Why is one nature twisted by adversity, while another almost seems to become saintly for enduring it? The sad thing is that true humility is something Uriah would never understand. His is a false humility, a sham pretense; what he seeks is the opposite of humility, it is aggrandizement.
Mod
When Dan Peggotty went to see Mrs Steerforth, he displayed all the noble characteristics a true gentleman should. He was honest, dignified, caring, and courteous. He was shocked to be offered money as compensation. Yet Mrs Steerforth was arrogant, rigid and uncompromising, bothered above all else that her son should keep his "position in society" despite having wronged another (Emily) so grievously. And of course Rosa went even further, but Dan Peggotty still kept his self-respect.
Interesting depictions of different classes, and the attributes they have, which are not what they may at first appear.
Exactly, Jean. The quality of a man's character is not determined by the amount of money in his pockets. Mr. Dickens remains, sadly, relevant, as we see examples of this everywhere around us today.
I am thoroughly disgusted with Uriah Heep, so this will be an unforgiving speech. I cannot view Heep as anything but a villain because he seeks to harm others for his own gain. What’s even worse to me, is that Uriah has no qualms reducing Wickfield to a subservient position when Wickfield has done so much for him. Uriah makes a conscious decision to repay kindness with malice. He can be compared to Steerforth, I get that. But, I’m also comparing him to David. Why? Because David had to live under the cruelty of Mr Murdstone, suffer the loss of his mother and his inheritance until he couldn’t take it anymore and finally ran away. Aunt Betsey took David in and showed him kindness. David has been very loyal to his aunt in return and I fully believe David loves Aunt Betsey.
I cannot excuse Uriah for one second that he continues on his path of evil - using manipulation to grasp power and privilege at the expense of others. I believe Uriah has lost his soul. David isn’t perfect and is still growing up in many ways, but in spite of everything, David can still feel compassion for others and hasn’t given in to bitterness. Basically, David hasn’t gone to the dark side but Uriah has. So, I think Dickens wanted us to see that contrast as well.
You and I see it the same, Lori. I love the comparison to David!
I agree with both of you, Sara and Lori. Uriah's past is no excuse for what he has become. It is his choice. Other people coming from similar situations do not let their circumstances corrupt them. Does Uriah really have a disability or does Dickens use his writhing as an outward expression of the snake he is?
On a lighter note, I had to laugh out loud when David comments that Janet decided not to marry "not so much for the sake of principle, I believe, as because she happened not to like him".
Mod
Katy - the disability I referred to was the dystonia we discussed in the first thread. It does seem clear from Uriah's demeanour, which matches the symptoms so well, that he had this. But yes, I agree it is a convenient way to show "Dickens us[ing] his writhing as an outward expression of the snake he is".
And I too love those perfect quips :D
Mod
The two are similar in that both have mothers who adore them, and they feel the same way (except that David's is now a memory).
David has been forced to do menial work, so in a way he has an impoverished background like Uriah. However, he never has the identity of a menial worker, because he is a middle class boy. Therefore, in Charles Dickens's view, (and that of society at the time) it is entirely appropriate for David to seek to marry Dora, but completely unacceptable for Uriah to seek to marry Agnes. Even if Uriah Heep had been a nice person, he had no "right" to seek to marry outside his class. His speech and manners would be wrong!
And this begs an interesting question about dialect, and local accents. Charles Dickens makes all the Peggottys speak in a working class, rural way - except Emily! He has a habit of doing this with characters who are poor, but whom he want to put centre stage for their goodness. The workhouse boy Oliver Twist is a perfect example; he speaks beautiful cultured English, as does the heroine of Our Mutual Friend, Lizzie Hexam. I'm afraid that Charles Dickens was a man of his time, and for him it was inconceivable that his idealised women and children could speak in what he would consider uncouth tones, or a local dialect.
Mod
David, now back at his rooms in Buckingham Street, tells his aunt of all that has been revealed during his visit. Betsey Trotwood is perturbed by the news, and paces about for two hours, (as she is wont to do if anything disturbs or worries her). David at last has a chance to write his letter to Dora's two maiden aunts, and his aunt Betsey approves it.
A few days later he is walking home from Dr Strong's house in the snow. There is a driving wind, and he decides to go the shortest way, through St. Martin's Lane down to the Strand. He has an impression, as a woman passes him, of a face that he recognises, but he had only glimpsed it, and is not sure. Then he sees a stooping figure on the steps of the church (this is St. Martin's-in-the-Fields) and finds himself face to face with Mr. Peggotty! On the instant, he remembers that the face he saw belonged to Martha, the old friend who Emily had felt sorry for, but who had disgraced herself too far in Mr Peggotty's eyes.
David meets Mr Peggotty - Fred Barnard
Mr Peggotty explains that he was coming to see David, but had only just arrived from Yarmouth, and was about to set off again on his travels, in search of Emily. Clearly there was a lot to talk about so David takes him to a nearby Inn.
Mr Peggotty looks older, but: "very strong, and like a man upheld by steadfastness of purpose, whom nothing could tire out." He tells David about his long journeys across the continent, mostly on foot, and just picking up a lift in a cart now and then. He had been shown kindness by many poor people, all of whom knew his story, and felt a sympathy with him. Often word had gone before to the villages on his path.
Dan Peggotty had begin his search in France, as when Emily was a little girl she used to dream of going to the places her father had told her of. Mr Peggotty will not use Steerforth's name, but he says he knows that he will have used this longing to tempt Emily, and tell her that he would take here there, and make her a lady.
Mr Peggotty crossed the channel, which would be easy enough for a sea-faring man, not caring for his comforts, and went to see an "English gen’leman as was in authority", who gave him various papers he would need on his travels in search of his niece. This man also tried to give him money, but Dan Peggotty would not accept it. As he travelled through France, and then Italy, he realised that it was due to this man, who had sent word ahead, that so many had heard of his pilgrimage, "Alone, and on foot."
David becomes aware that Martha is listening, through a crack in the door, and is keen (as is she) that Mr Peggotty should not observe her. She listens to Mr Peggotty's long account, during which at one point he breaks down in tears.
Recovering himself, he tells David how he went on through Switzerland, and hears about three travellers, who are clearly Steerforth, Emily and Littimer in the Swiss Alps. Mr Peggotty went doggedly on, although the way was far, and was so convinced that Emily would come back with him that he bought her a dress. The thought of her accompanying him back, kept him going. Eventually he arrived, but "I was too late, and they was gone." He decided to make his way home, which took four days.
Back at the boathouse, he found that Mrs Gummidge had been as true as her word, keeping the lamp lit for little Emily each night. Over time, three packets had arrived, with money, and a sorrowful note to Mrs Gummidge, which ended: "Tell him that if I was to die tomorrow (and oh, if I was fit, I would be so glad to die!) I would bless him and uncle with my last words, and pray for his happy home with my last breath!"
This note seemed to be from where Mr Peggotty had been told the three were staying. Last was more money, with a postmark on the Upper Rhine. He intended to make his way there as soon as they finish talking. David asks about Ham, and Mr Peggotty says that he works hard and is well respected and loved, but seems to not have much care for himself.
They part, and the snow soon covers all trace of any tracks.
Mod
I wonder if David has assumed wrongly, and whether Mr Peggotty would not now be so judgemental about Martha. It is Steerforth's family who are consumed with pride, hatred and class consciousness, as we discussed yesterday. The world of Peggotty and David is built upon love and forgiveness, and I personally feel that both David and Dan Peggotty would have felt compassion for Martha.
This part also reminded me of the occasions when Mr Wickfield did not want Agnes to have anything to do with Annie Strong, and prevented the two from embracing when the Wickfields left the Strongs' house.
Mod
That is an interesting observation. Dickens was indeed a man of his time, which is what makes his concern and attitude toward the lower classes so unique. I'm sure it was a struggle for him to reconcile his sympathies with the strict social system he still adhered to. In the end, he changed the society around him significantly, and how many of us can say that?
Mod
St. Martin's-in-the-Fields is a church which is famous for its choral music even today. There has been a church there since mediaeval times; the earliest known church being built in the 1220s. It was rebuilt in 1542 and replaced by the existing Georgian church in 1726:
St. Martins-in-the-Fields, Westminster
In 1915, an unknown critic said:
"The few changes apparent do not affect in any way our interest in the story nor do they rob the text of its truth. A slant has been given to the street on which the old church stands, and St. Martin's Lane has been widened and straightened until it can dip the more gracefully into Trafalgar Square and so on to the Strand; but the sombre, dignified pillars of St. Martin's-in-the-Fields, their shoulders supporting the cornice and roof, the whole a mass of mellow soot soft as velvet, and the low marble steps leading to the portico are precisely as they were on that eventful night when David Copperfield, taking his way home by St. Martin's Lane, came across Martha and then Peggotty."
I saw recently that although they are broadcasting over the internet, this is the first time the church has been closed (because of coronavirus) since it was built.
I agree that this is a moving chapter, especially Mr. Peggotty's description of his journey and the kind treatment he received everywhere.
I'm wondering if Ham will keep himself safe since he's been so depressed since Emily left. Mr Peggotty told David that Ham has no care for his life. "When a man's wanted for rough sarvice in rough weather, he's theer. When there's any hard duty to be done with danger in it, he steps for'ard afore all his mates." It seems to be foreshadowing trouble ahead.
Poor Mr. Peggotty, to come so close and still miss finding her. I wonder what Emily is thinking at this point. Her letters do not sound as if she thinks she has made a very good bargain.I agree that Mr. Peggotty would certainly have changed his attitude toward Martha. I doubt he would have been in the least unkind to her before, but he was attempting to guard Emily's welfare. I am pleased that Dickens took a chapter to catch us up on what is going on with these characters. We are juggling a lot of different narratives at the moment and Dickens amazes me at keeping them all simultaneously in the air without losing a single thread.
Good chapter. I also enjoyed reading about Mr. Peggotty' journey. I especially liked this: "Many mile a day a-foot, and often with some poor soldier or another, travelling to see his friends. I couldn’t talk to him,” said Mr. Peggotty, “nor he to me; but we was company for one another, too, along the dusty roads.”I wish Martha would have spoken to David. I wonder about her life. Since we see her again in this chapter, maybe she will appear again. I also feel David and Dan Peggotty would have felt compassion for Martha.
I fear Ham is going to die.
I fear for Ham too, he seems to have become quite reckless, throwing himself into danger. I was amazed at how far Dan Peggotty went in search of Emily and how successful he was - he's by no means a well educated man, but he manages to communicate with people across Europe and get on her trail. I guess in those days there were far fewer English people about, so they were noticed.
Jean: Thank you for the history of St. Martins-in-the-field and the picture. It’s a beautiful church. (I am curious if this is the St. Martins mentioned in the poem that starts with, “Oranges and lemons say the bells of St. Clemmons”?)Debra and Pamela: I really hope that Ham survives his heartache. He’s a good man and deserves another chance at living a productive life, if not a happy one. Another reason that I don’t want Ham to die is for Em’ly’s sake. Her guilt is already off the charts without a tragedy like that on her conscience. So, hopefully Peggotty will find Em’ly and the family will begin to heal.
Bionic Jean wrote: "And this begs an interesting question about dialect, and local accents. Charles Dickens makes all the Peggottys speak in a working class, rural way - except Emily!That's very interesting, I hadn't noticed that she doesn't speak in dialect, but I do remember that being true of Oliver Twist.
I think Dickens writes Suffolk/Norfolk dialect beautifully for the other members of the Peggotty family - he doesn't pile it on, but just puts in a few words like "doen't" or using "that" instead of "it", which really gives the feel of the local speech to anyone who knows this part of the world, as I do!
On the social climbing theme, Emily also wants to climb, by becoming "a lady", and I think that is one of the reasons Steerforth can tempt her - marrying well is the only route out that she can see. Even though she breaks her family's hearts, I think it's not hard to understand that she wants to see more of the world and is fed up with fish gutting!
A very touching chapter, I thought Mr. Peggotty would show up as Jean as mentioned before when someone is mentioned in passing in a chapter it's to remind them to the reader and they often show up in the next chapter.To have someone has devoted to you as Mr. Peggotty is to Em'ly is rare. It is too bad that she doesn't know it, she might have found that she could go home after all since she looks like she is regretting her decision. I wonder why? Is it because she knows it is morally wrong or are things really not working well with Steerforth?
I'm a little intrigued by Martha.
Mod
I didn't know you knew the nursery rhyme in the States! Apparently it dates from 1744. Did you do the "dance" (a sort of playground game) to it too? That dates from 1655!
Although this seems a bit of a digression, the London churches do feature quite a lot in Charles Dickens's works, and one of the others ones is going to have a significant part to play in David Copperfield too.
Mod
Critics often point out that his cockney accent is written oddly, with "W"s substituted for "V"s, and the reverse. I could never understand this as he would have been so familiar with it himself! Then I learned that there was a fashion for speaking thus which lasted about 10 years - a sort of slang - and obviously it must have appealed to Charles Dickens. Here are two examples, both by Sam Weller in The Pickwick Papers:
“Vich I call addin’ insult to injury, as the parrot said ven they not only took him from his native land, but made him talk the English langwidge arterwards.”
“Werry sorry to ‘casion any personal inconvenience, ma’am, as the house-breaker said to the old lady when he put her on the fire….”
I love the different accent that authors try to portray, but as not a native speaker sometimes I just don’t know what is meant and that can be frustrating.
Mod
Yes, I can understand that. Some authors are far "worse" though, I think!
Judy wrote: "Bionic Jean wrote: "And this begs an interesting question about dialect, and local accents. Charles Dickens makes all the Peggottys speak in a working class, rural way - except Emily!That's very ..."
Oliver Twist turns out to be of upper-class blood (I hope that's not a spoiler for anyone!) and the Victorians seemed to think that "blood will tell" even if you grow up in a terrible place with little education. But others of Dickens' street children speak dialect or ungrammatical English.
Mod
Jean: Thanks for the clarification! I hadn’t heard about the dance but I collect old books that I find in antique shops, so I have come across the poem. There have also been questions on Jeopardy about the rhyme and I was very happy I knew it well enough to impress my husband with the correct responses.
Mod
The "dance" sounds like the playground game we played to London Bridge is Falling Down. I was exposed to the churches rhyme when I was a child, so I am thinking it was included in nursery rhyme books, which would undoubtedly have come over the seas with immigrants. We sometimes forget that everything American started with things that were British and Irish and such.
Dickensians!
Books mentioned in this topic
Sense and Sensibility - Jane Austen: Annotated (other topics)Middlemarch (other topics)
The Vampyre (other topics)
David Copperfield (other topics)
Oliver Twist (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
John Mullen (other topics)Catherine Thomson Dickens (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
John William Polidori (other topics)
Jane Austen (other topics)
More...
I don't like the new Mr. Micawber at all. He was bad enough before(shiftless) but to look up to Uriah as a role model!