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David Copperfield - Group Read 1 > May - June 2020: David Copperfield: chapters 30 - 44

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message 151: by Milena (last edited Jun 06, 2020 10:04AM) (new)

Milena | 153 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "Did you notice that at one point he called her "little Dora."

Yes I noticed, Jean. You are right: he says so much with that “little Dora”. One can clearly see in the chapter that David’s attraction for Dora is of a sensual nature.
Thank you for the references to Charles Dickens’s life. I realise, in reading your summaries, how important they are in David Copperfield. And since I haven’t read any of Dickens’s biographies, your posts really make the difference :-))


message 152: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jun 06, 2020 11:34AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8607 comments Mod
Thank you Milena! The trick really, is knowing what must be included, (as it will prove significant) without actually stressing it any more than Dickens himself did! Plus being careful to be objective, and not to bias a synopsis with my own interpretation.

My comments afterwards are to stimulate discussion, but I think we'd have that anyway with so many active and insightful members. I am glad to know they help though :)


message 153: by France-Andrée (last edited Jun 06, 2020 11:51AM) (new)

France-Andrée (iphigenie72) | 376 comments Dora would be still silly today, but I think a lot of her airheadness is due to the education for girls at that time. In her social stratta, singing, playing the guitar and sewing were hight accomplishment. Her father hasn't even prepared her to oversee a house, she will need a housekeeper that can do everything without guidance. I think David is starting to see that, but he has the optimism of youth that makes him think that everything will turn out well.

I visualize Dora a little like Kirsten Dunst when she was a teenager. Blond, curly and with that little smile of hers though Kirsten wasn't silly at all.


message 154: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jun 06, 2020 12:11PM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8607 comments Mod
France-Andrée wrote: "Dora would be still silly today, but I think a lot of her airheadness is due to the education for girls at that time. ..."

Yes, you're right Dora has been educated to have the accomplishments of a lady. In fact we were told in chapter 26, when David had not yet met her, that she has been educated very selectively:

"Mr. Spenlow remarked ... that he should have been happy to have seen me at his house at Norwood to celebrate our becoming connected, but for his domestic arrangements being in some disorder, on account of the expected return of his daughter from finishing her education at Paris."

She will have been a debutante, and before making her first appearance in fashionable society, will have needed to learn things like deportment, etiquette, French, drawing and watercolours, piano-playing, fine embroidery and fashion, in addition to a little study of traditional school subjects. The School in France was what we call a "finishing school" for well-bred young ladies.

It's noticeable that both Dora and David feel little wary - or guilty - about their relationship, however innocent it is. Otherwise Mr Spenlow would have been told, and there would be need for the birdcage signal to prevent Mr Mills from knowing too.

They are deliberately deceiving both fathers, with the connivance of Miss Mills. What is likely to happen when someone finds out?


message 155: by Debra Diggs (new)

Debra Diggs Chapter 36

France-Andrée wrote: "...I wonder why Uriah Heep has decided to hire Mr. Micawber? There has to be an underhand reason..."

This is exactly what I thought.


message 156: by Debra Diggs (new)

Debra Diggs Chapter 37

Dora is an idiot. Maybe a woman of her time, but still an idiot.


message 157: by Michaela (new)

Michaela I agree that Dora isn´t the right choice for David, but he seems to be attracted by pretty silly childish girls. He´s sensible enough regarding work and money, but not when it comes to women. But then he´s only young, and I hope he won´t throw himself into a loveless marriage.


message 158: by Petra (last edited Jun 06, 2020 01:55PM) (new)

Petra | 2178 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "It looks very much as if Charles Dickens's model for the adorable Dora was his own wife, Kate, whom a friend of his described as: ..."

Our current Biography read states this:
"More and more plainly seen, however, in the light of four-and-forty, the romance glided visibly away, its work being fairly done; …., during which he had very quietly made a formal call with his wife at his youthful Dora's house, and contemplated with a calm equanimity in the hall her stuffed favorite Jip, he began the fiction in which there was a Flora to set against its predecessor's Dora, both derived from the same original. The fancy had a comic humor in it he found it impossible to resist, …..and if the later picture showed him plenty to laugh at in this retrospect of his youth, there was nothing he thought of more tenderly than the earlier,...…"

Until reading this paragraph, I had wondered if Dicken's wife was the mold for Dora, but it seems that it wasn't and Dora was someone else. It also shows that the older Dickens knows that this Dora was not a good match for him and can look back with humor at his young self.

I wonder who the real Dora was.
The Dora episode in David Copperfield, particularly this chapter, may be Dickens laughing at his youthful self.


message 159: by Robin P (new)

Robin P We do know about the real Dora, Jean can fill us in. It was mentioned in one of the other threads. I think her family opposed Dickens as a match because of his lack of money and prospects. I wonder if they were sorry later.


message 160: by Judy (new)

Judy (wwwgoodreadscomprofilejudyg) | 362 comments I can sympathise when Dora doesn't like the sound of cookery books, as I have often found them hard to follow! I hadn't realised this, but it seems they were the latest trend at the time when David Copperfield was published.

A note in my old Penguin edition says: "Cookery books for the middle class appeared in the 1840s. Eliza Acton's Modern Cookery in All Its Branches (1843) was the first designed specifically for the middle class. Mrs Beeton's Cookery appeared in 1861."

This reminded me that Catherine Dickens actually published a cookery book a couple of years after David Copperfield came out. I found an article about it, here - it mentions that her family were not very well off and she was taught domestic economy as a girl, unlike Dora. The recipes do sound extremely stodgy, though, and apparently there is an awful lot of toasted cheese, which was a favourite of her husband's.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/201...


message 161: by Judy (new)

Judy (wwwgoodreadscomprofilejudyg) | 362 comments I had remembered from previous reads that Dora was silly and immature (though sweet and charming), but have been slightly surprised to realise just how often this is also true of the young David! He is starting to mature here, though, as he begins to concentrate on his career.


message 162: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jun 06, 2020 03:36PM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8607 comments Mod
Petra - As Robin says, we discussed the original for Dora in an earlier thread. Perhaps you missed it:

LINK HERE (comment 249 in the 2nd thread).

The point is that just as he used his mother for several characters throughout his work, we can never say that a character is not an amalgam of more than one person in his life.

"Dora" is usually held to be a portrait of Maria Beadnell, his earliest sweetheart, but when he married Catherine (Kate) he had chosen someone with exactly the same characteristics - which his fictional Dora displays to perfection. I'll edit the post of mine you quoted, to make this clearer.

The paragraph from John Forster's biography seems to refer to Charles Dickens's visit to the older Maria Beadnell, as he was desperate to not ever see her on his own again after their first disastrous meeting after so many years. (She had warned him she was "old, fat and ugly" but he wouldn't take no for an answer - then bitterly regretted it. I've always felt rather sorry for her ...) plus his own musing on his wife when young, and what he sees right then in front of his eyes.

You don't say which chapter though, and I'd need to read it in context to know the date, to be absolutely sure. But it fits so well, that I can't see it could be anyone else, especially since the "Flora" he mentions must his character "Flora Finching" (as mentioned in the earlier thread.) We can discuss it on the biography thread if you like.

"The Dora episode in David Copperfield, particularly this chapter, may be Dickens laughing at his youthful self." Yes, he's making it amusing for us, as I said to Milena earlier. It's a good job it is so funny, as we have a low tolerance for melodrama nowadays!


message 163: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8607 comments Mod
Judy - Great research on the cookery books! For those not in the UK, "Mrs Beeton" is pretty much thought of as the goddess of cookery, and no self-respecting Victorian Household would be without Mrs Beeton's Book of Household Management, which as Judy said was first published in 1861 and is still going!


message 164: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8607 comments Mod
Debra wrote: "Dora is an idiot. Maybe a woman of her time, but still an idiot."

LOL Yes! The fact that she has been carefully schooled to be a sophisticated young lady, does not preclude her and David from being, as he puts it so well, "a pair of noodles"!


message 165: by Lori (new)

Lori | 123 comments Oh, dear. Dora is exactly the silly type that Aunt Betsey didn’t want to see David attached to.


message 166: by Petra (new)

Petra | 2178 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "Petra - As Robin says, we discussed the original for Dora in an earlier thread. Perhaps you missed it:

LINK HERE (comment 249 in the 2nd thread).

The point is that just as he used his mother for ..."


Thanks, Jean, for the link. Sorry....I hadn't realized that Dora had already been discussed. There's no need to move the discussion to the Biography thread.


message 167: by Elizabeth A.G. (last edited Jun 06, 2020 08:35PM) (new)

Elizabeth A.G. | 122 comments Some other actresses who played Dora:
Pamela Franklin (1969)


Joanna Page (1999)

Mignon Anderson (1911 silent film); - general photo of Mignon Anderson.

LINK: https://youtu.be/uDl3gqrtPrA?t=127 Alma Taylor (1913 silent film)

Which actress do you think of as Dora as you read? Jean has already shown us the picture of Maureen O'Sullivan as Dora in the 1935 film.


message 168: by Connie (new)

Connie  G (connie_g) | 1045 comments I love the photos that you posted, Elizabeth. I pictured Dora as a blond, and Joanna Page is close to what I imagined.


message 169: by Sara (new)

Sara (phantomswife) | 1562 comments I picked Joanna Page as well. I pictured her as a blonde also and wonder if it is because she is silly and vapid, but obviously pretty...stereotypes die hard.


message 170: by Connie (new)

Connie  G (connie_g) | 1045 comments Sara, we probably also think of Dora as a blond because Jean posted that wonderful illustration of Dora by Fred Barnard in Chapter 26. Dora looks blond and angelic.


message 171: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8607 comments Mod
Thanks for finding all those images of Dora, Elizabeth! None of them really match my mental image, although the closest is the one Connie mentioned, which was an etching by Fred Barnard. She seems to have an angelic light or aura around her, and because of this, it's difficult to tell the colour of her hair! Yes I too think of blonde curls or ringlets, but then Maria and Kate both had dark hair ...

The closest photo I can get is not a dramatisation of her, but of Rosamund Lydgate in Middlemarch, who is also a silly, brainless, pretty little thing:



although because of the hair, I don't believe this is what Charles Dickens can have had in mind.

Petra - not to worry we can talk about Dora as much as you like! But when I get to that part in the bio I'll comment there (if there's anything :) )


message 172: by Sara (new)

Sara (phantomswife) | 1562 comments This image is almost exactly what I had in my mind while reading, the curls are perfect.


message 173: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jun 07, 2020 08:42AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8607 comments Mod
Chapter 38:

David begins to teach himself shorthand, aiming eventually to be able to record the proceedings in court for the newspapers. However, the system is a lot more difficult than he had anticipated. After three or four months he tried to record a speech in the Commons, but the speaker:

"left my imbecile pencil staggering about the paper as if it were in a fit!"

David asks Traddles if he can help, and Traddles helpfully dictates at the correct speed, until David improves. Aunt Betsey and Mr. Dick are also recruited "to represent the Government or the Opposition (as the case might be)", and Traddles reads out from various parliamentary speeches with great vigour and enthusiasm:



Traddles Makes a figure in Parliament and I report him - Phiz

These sessions become so dramatic, that Mr Dick begins to fear they are real life, and that he has done something wrong or illegal. After a lot of practise, David begins to feel he is keeping pace - until he tries to read back his scribbles, and then finds he needs to start all over again.

One day David arrives for work at Doctor's Commons as usual, to find that Mr Spenlow seems very out of sorts. He asks David to accompany him to a local coffee-house, and:

"my mind misgave me that he had found out about my darling Dora."

Who should be waiting there, upstairs, but Miss Murdstone. To David's utter horror, she draws out from her metallic clasped purse, the most recent love letter he had sent to Dora, and shows him "a parcel of letters out of her reticule, tied round with the dearest bit of blue ribbon". Mr Spenlow asks Miss Murdstone to proceed, but when she begins to be judgmental, directs her to "confin[e her]self to facts".

Miss Murdstone says that she had had suspicions of David right from the beginning, as soon as he had seen Dora, and that Dora's "manner" on returning from her stay with Miss Mills, only increased this feeling. She watched Dora carefully, waiting for "proof" of her suspicions.

The previous evening, she had caught Jip playing with a piece of paper. The dog did not want to let it go:

"he kept it between his teeth so pertinaciously as to suffer himself to be held suspended in the air by means of the document"

but eventually he released it to Miss Murdstone.

David is so affected at the knowledge that Dora would have been "frightened and made wretched" by the discovery, that he finds it difficult to master his emotions, but he does so, and assures Mr Spenlow that the responsibility is all his. Mr Spenlow says:

"You have done a stealthy and unbecoming action, Mr. Copperfield,"

going on to inform him of his daughter’s station in life, and future prospects, which are well out of David's reach. David assures Mr Spenlow that they had become engaged before he had lost his income (through his aunt), but this only serves to inflame Mr Spenlow. He further tells Mr Spenlow that he is striving to better himself, and reminds him that he is very young.

This appeases Mr Spenlow a little, and he concludes that it is all "nonsense", due to their youth, and ask for the letters, to throw on the fire. David is resolute; he will not do this. Mr Spenlow say that he will talk to Dora himself, and Miss Murdstone makes it plain that she thinks he should have done this at first.

David will not take the letters back from either of them, and decides the interview must be at an end. Mr Spenlow calls him back, with the words:

"I am not altogether destitute of worldly possessions, and that my daughter is my nearest and dearest relative."

David assures Mr Spenlow that his motives are not mercenary, which Mr Spenlow seems to believe. That was not his intention in raising the subject, he said. He merely wanted to point out to David that his Will had been drawn up and settled many years ago, and he would not like to feel obliged to change it, in respect of his daughter's intention to make an unsuitable marriage. This was said calmly, with no accusation. David feels touched, but there is no way he can concur. Mr Spenlow advises him to "take a week", and this time it is clear that nothing more is to be said. As David leaves the room, aware of Miss Murdstone's disapproval (signalled by her eyebrows), he has a flashback to his feelings when he was dismissed from the parlour at Blunderstone, for being adjudged deficient at his spelling, long ago as a child.

Back at his desk in Doctor's Commons, David feels himself tormented by what has happened. He feels "impelled ... to write a wild letter to Mr. Spenlow, beseeching him not to visit upon [Dora] the consequences of my awful destiny." He is a little worried that he had addressed Mr Spenlow as if he were an Ogre, or a Dragon, and also that his language is rather similar to Mr Micawber's, but he leaves it, sealed, upon Mr Spenlow's desk, for him to read nevertheless. Later, he notices that Mr Spenlow is indeed reading it.

Nothing is said until the following afternoon, when Mr Spenlow calls David in to see him. He says he had assured Dora that it was all nonsense, and he has nothing more to say about it.

"All you have got to do, Mr. Copperfield, is to forget it"

and then he will not feel obliged to send Dora abroad again.

David broods on the impossibility of this, and arranges a clandestine meeting with Miss Mills, in the Mills's back kitchen. The older David, as narrator, wryly recognises that there was probably no need to make a secret of this. However, David knows of "Miss Mills’s love of the romantic and mysterious", and a complicit, sympathetic meeting of this type between them is exactly what he feels he wants. He is going there:

"I suppose, to make a fool of myself, and I am quite sure I did it." They both indulge in flowery sentimental expressions, Miss Mills saying:

"Hearts confined by cobwebs would burst at last, and then Love was avenged."

and after a good deal more of this, they agree that she will go to Dora first thing next morning, to assure her of David's undying love.

"I think Miss Mills enjoyed herself completely."

David tells his aunt (whom Mr Spenlow had already asked him to consult, regarding his feelings for Dora) all about it, but what she has to say does not console him.

The next morning, on arriving at Doctor's Commons, he is told that there has been a "dreadful calamity" and Mr Spenlow is dead. Nobody is sure what had happened, but he seems to have fallen from his phaeton (carriage) while driving the horses. The horses had not bolted, but returned home, and Mr Spenlow was discovered a mile away, partly on the roadside, and partly on the path. It was assumed he had suffered some sort of fit.

David is shocked, especially since he had argued with Mr Spenlow so recently. He feels ashamed that he has "a lurking jealousy even of Death", as he knows that Dora's thoughts will be full of Mr Spenlow, and not of him. He writes a letter of consolation to her, and the older David wonders if the motivation for this had been to put his name in the forefront of her mind.

A few days later, Mr Jorkins and Tiffey are sorting out Mr Spenlow's office, hoping to find his Will. They are surprised at David's insistence that there is one. Contrarily, they seem to view Mr Spenlow's saying that the details were all sorted out a long time ago, as confirmation that no such Will exists. They make a thorough search, but find nothing:

"He had never so much as thought of making one, so far as his papers afforded any evidence; for there was no kind of hint, sketch, or memorandum, of any testamentary intention whatever."

In addition, Mr Spenlow is discovered to not be as wealthy as had been supposed. His affairs are in disorder, and he owes a lot of money. Mr Spenlow had spent a lot of money on making the premises look smart, regularly spending more than his professional income. Since this was not a large income, this had reduced his private savings drastically.

Six weeks later, after all Mr Spenlow's furniture at Norwood had been sold, and all the creditors paid, Tiffey considers there is only about a thousand pounds left at the most.

Since Dora now has nowhere to live, two maiden aunts who had been sisters of Mr. Spenlow, invite her to live with them in Putney (South West London). This is her only family, but they had become estranged due to a slight difference of opinion when she had been christened.

Now that Dora resides in Putney, David transfers his "prowl[ing] about the neighbourhood" to that area. He and Miss Mills sometimes meet on Putney Common, where she reads or loans him extracts of her journal, since it is all about Dora. David treasures these notes, as his only consolation.


message 174: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8607 comments Mod
A lot has happened in this chapter. It's not really surprising that Miss Murdstone should be the vehicle for David's undoing.

I am surprised though, that Charles Dickens didn't make more of his cliffhanger, after Mr Spenlow discovers the deception. His death follows the next day!

There's a lot of humour here, despite the dramas. There's lots to discuss :)


message 175: by Rosemarie (new)

Rosemarie | 311 comments Miss Murdstone is always a grim presence and seems to take great pleasure in destroying anyone's happiness-especially David's, it seems.

I admire David's persistence in learning shorthand-it sounds brutal.


message 176: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8607 comments Mod
This part was also Charles Dickens's own memory. He taught himself shorthand.


message 177: by Judy (new)

Judy (wwwgoodreadscomprofilejudyg) | 362 comments I write shorthand and the descriptions of learning bring back memories (dreaming it etc) - though modern systems are a lot easier than the one Dickens/David learned, I never achieved anywhere near their level of proficiency, and I also had a teacher rather than having to learn it out of a book!

My favourite bit in this chapter, though, is Miss Mills's diary - sheer genius.


message 178: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jun 07, 2020 09:52AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8607 comments Mod
Judy wrote: "My favourite bit in this chapter, though, is Miss Mills's diary - sheer genius ..."

You know that is also from real life! I read a book by Felix Aylmer called Dickens Incognito, and nearly all of it started from one diary of Charles Dickens that he had somehow neglected to destroy and it had been recently discovered (when Felix Aylmer wrote the book).

In that diary, Charles Dickens wrote almost indecipherable codes - far more so than Miss Mills! "N" was always Nelly, but there were initials for destinations, railway ticket times were in code, etc. It was as if he had a dread of anyone finding it and reading it! But once you had deciphered it, as Felix Aylmer had mostly, it revealed quite a lot about his secret double life, using a pseudonym, purchasing a house under this other name, probably registering his child in France by Nelly to another couple, etc.


message 179: by Milena (new)

Milena | 153 comments Elizabeth A.G. wrote: "Which actress do you think of as Dora as you read? Jean has already shown us the picture of Maureen O'Sullivan as Dora in the 1935 film.."

Like Connie and Sara, I picked Joanna Page. By the way, somewhere I’ve got the DVD of the 1999 film, with little Daniel Radcliffe.


message 180: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8607 comments Mod
Me too Milena :) What I noticed at the time was how clearly he enunciated. I didn't know he was about to take the world by storm though!

When we've completed our read, I'm going to watch that all over again :)


message 181: by Milena (new)

Milena | 153 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "When we've completed our read, I'm going to watch that all over again :)"

I was thinking about doing the same thing :-D


message 182: by Judy (new)

Judy (wwwgoodreadscomprofilejudyg) | 362 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "Judy wrote: "My favourite bit in this chapter, though, is Miss Mills's diary - sheer genius ..."

You know that is also from real life! I read a book by Felix Aylmer called ..."</i>

I've read lines from this journal in [book:The Invisible Woman
and other biographies, so I know what you mean about all the abbreviations.

However, what I love about Miss Mills' journal is the sheer silliness and pretentiousness of it, and the way it is obviously written to show to David!



message 183: by Debra Diggs (new)

Debra Diggs I find Mr Spenlow's death and missing will a little odd.


message 184: by Milena (new)

Milena | 153 comments Judy wrote: "However, what I love about Miss Mills' journal is the sheer silliness and pretentiousness of it, and the way it is obviously written to show to David!"

I agree. In this sad situation, Miss Spenlow is the only one who is enjoying herself “completely”, as (old) David thinks. :)


message 185: by Milena (last edited Jun 07, 2020 11:07AM) (new)

Milena | 153 comments Poor little Dora, raised to be the silly wife of a rich man. And now an orphan, not so rich anymore, and oppressed by a sense of guilt just because she likes David.
I wonder if Miss Murdstone, when she discovered the letters, spoke to her about “the depravity of the human heart” like she did when she told Mr Spenlow and David how she had found the letters. She even succeeded in reawaken David’s old feeling of guilt for not being good at spelling.
Yes, I understand that in Victorian times things were different. But when I think about little Miss Murdstone, I can help but think about a troubled little girl, and what’s worst, with the same heavy eyebrows.


message 186: by Rosemarie (new)

Rosemarie | 311 comments I noticed David's comment about her eyebrows too.


message 187: by Michaela (new)

Michaela It´s odd that all persons appearing in this book always meet eachother or at least David - it isn´t set in a tiny village.

What I was thinking why Dickens only took his material from real life, not from imagination.


message 188: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jun 07, 2020 01:16PM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8607 comments Mod
Judy wrote: "what I love about Miss Mills' journal is the sheer silliness and pretentiousness of it, and the way it is obviously written to show to David!..."

Oh yes, I realised that, and agree like Milena :) You're right Claire Tomalin quotes parts of the diary in The Invisible Woman, and acknowledges Felix Aylmer as a source in her credits.

Felix Aylmer book actually put the diary "centre stage", in investigating that part of Charles Dickens's life. There are photostated pages from it in his book, and he does a close analysis, whereas Claire Tomalin's is a much broader look at Nelly Ternan's life, and her relationship with Charles Dickens.


message 189: by France-Andrée (last edited Jun 07, 2020 01:44PM) (new)

France-Andrée (iphigenie72) | 376 comments That picture of Rosamund Lydgate does get pretty close to how I see Dora too.

Big chapter, lots of changes.

Dora was quite right never to trust Miss Murdstone. She was a spy and her only aim was to destroy every bit of happiness Dora could find... I think it does make Miss Murdstone happy that at the same time it is making David miserable too, but I think she would have spied on Dora even if the object of her affection hadn't been David.

What a scene to have with Mr. Spenlow, David must have been so nervous. I do think that it isn't a coincidence that Mr. Spenlow died that night, the stress of confronting David and feeling so disappointed towards Dora probably brung about his death (heart attack?). The only good thing about this bit is Miss Murstone just lost her job.

The diary is obviously written for David, I wonder if Miss Mills has a real diary when she talks of other things than Dora? Her obsession over D. and D.C.'s love is a little creepy, she is living through them.


message 190: by Katy (new)

Katy | 298 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "Judy wrote: "My favourite bit in this chapter, though, is Miss Mills's diary - sheer genius ..."

You know that is also from real life! I read a book by Felix Aylmer called [book:..."


Did Dickens ever become proficient at shorthand? I took a class one time but never became good enough at it to use it on the job. However, like Dickens, I often write notes to myself in shorthand so no one else can read it. One of my co-workers commented on it once (someone who should not have been reading my notes in the first place, so he should not have know they were in shorthand).


message 191: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8607 comments Mod
Katy wrote: "Did Dickens ever become proficient at shorthand?..."

Yes Charles Dickens taught himself Brachygraphy shorthand in 1828 in order to become a law reporter. There are some surviving manuscripts of Dickens’s shorthand, but it's said they are almost indecipherable! I've never learned any sort of shorthand, but maybe someone here can have a go?



There's also a book about it called Dickens and the Stenographic Mind by Hugo Bowles.


message 192: by Elizabeth A.G. (last edited Jun 07, 2020 03:10PM) (new)

Elizabeth A.G. | 122 comments I never realized reading Dickens would lead to such great, insightful discussions and inspire new avenues of investigation. I learned Gregg shorthand in my senior year at college as an enhancement class (that is, voluntary and non-credited) anticipating it might come in handy in a future job. I hadn't heard of Gurney's shorthand method nor that Dickens had employed it himself.

I can understand David Copperfield's struggles to master this skill and really got a kick out of how Traddles, Aunt Betsey and Mr. Dick try to help him with their "Private Parliament."

I found a likeness of Thomas Gurney (1705-177), an example of his system (brachygraphy), and Charles Dickens' own shorthand. It's all Greek to me!






message 193: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jun 07, 2020 03:19PM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8607 comments Mod
Wow, thanks Elizabeth! It looks terribly difficult :( The only shorthand system I'd ever heard of was "Pitman's" - but I'd never tried it.

It sounds, from the bits l've read, that Charles Dickens kept using this brachygraphy shorthand all his life at various times, but had developed it into his own unique system. These two look the same to me - but maybe only an expert can tell?

Many schools in London are called after historical figures - often Victorians - and I know a "Gurney" school, which caters for special needs children, but can't discover whether there's a connection.


message 194: by Elizabeth A.G. (last edited Jun 07, 2020 07:23PM) (new)

Elizabeth A.G. | 122 comments Bionic Jean wrote: I've never learned any sort of shorthand, but maybe someone here can have a go?

Jean, Found this article/essay from "Dickens Quarterly" Dickens's Shorthand Manuscripts by Hugo Bowles of University of Rome Tor Vergata in March, 2018 (published by Johns Hopkins University Press) Hugo Bowles's thoughts are below. See link at the end of my post.

These three lines of shorthand were first analysed and transcribed by William Carlton in 1956. The text that Carlton deciphered:

"Xmas 1855 Of all men I know that whatever little motes my beamy eyes may have descried in theirs they belong to a wide generous large-hearted and great people."

This passage is a quotation from “The Holly Tree – First
Branch – Myself”, by Dickens which was first published in the Christmas edition of "Household Words" in 1855. "Household Words" was an English weekly magazine edited by Charles Dickens in the 1850s. This would explain the date “Xmas 1855” on the flyleaf of his pocket diary for 1867. The reason why Dickens is quoting his own work in shorthand in his diary twelve years later is probably to remind himself to use the quotation in a speech which was due to take place at a farewell dinner given in his honor at the Freemasons’ Tavern in London on Saturday 2 November 1867, before he embarked on a reading tour to the United States the following week. So, in 1867, twelve years after writing the "Holly-Tree," he quoted from from his shorthand to use in his farewell speech upon his imminent departure for America:

Twelve years ago, when Heaven knows I little thought
that ever I should be bound upon the voyage that now
lies before me, I wrote in that form of my writings
which obtains by far the most extensive circulation:
‘I know full well, whatever little motes my beamy
eyes may have descried in theirs, that they are a kind,
largehearted, generous and great people.’ In that
faith I am going to see them again.

For a line by line transcription of Dickens's shorthand in your message 191, Jean, scan down Bowles's article to pages 21 and 22. For some reason this transcription was unable to be copied for this post. This is the link:
https://muse.jhu.edu/article/686842/pdf

Also, if anyone is interested in reading Dickens's "The Holly-Tree" this is the link to that: https://www.pagebypagebooks.com/Charl...



message 195: by Lori (new)

Lori | 123 comments Well, this is definitely getting interesting. I was shocked by Mr Spenlow’s sudden demise. I’m wondering if Dickens changed his mind about Spenlow’s objections to the engagement of David and Dora. Hmmm.

Anyway, I was thinking back to the chapter where David first met Dora, “I fall into Captivity” and how Dickens was as good as his word on David’s devotion to Dora. I’m also thinking about how young these two are in terms of emotional maturity. At the end of this chapter David is still thinking of a “grim enchanter” and an “innocent goddess”, very much still in the realm of fairy tales.

France-Andree: I agree with you, Miss Mills is living vicariously through David and Dora’s romance. I guess it’s lucky for the two love birds Julia hasn’t become involved in a new romance herself. I can’t help wondering if she would devote so much time being their go-between if she had renewed prospects of her own....


message 196: by Sara (new)

Sara (phantomswife) | 1562 comments I took Greg shorthand in school, worked several jobs where I used it, and admit to being proficient. I still use it when I need to take notes at a lecture, presentation, etc. and find it is a skill that I have been happy to possess. Of course, not much use in this day and age in the office setting.

Miss Murdstone did not surprise me, although it would have been the obligation of a governess at the time to report her charge if she was found to be slipping behind a parent's back to keep assignations with a man. It is the joy she takes in the reporting that is so obnoxious.

Dora has just descended the ladder to David's level...they are even again. I worry that he will get his way and find himself married to her. I think he will feel obligated to take care of her unless she insists on breaking it off.


message 197: by Cindy (new)

Cindy Newton | 76 comments I learned Gregg shorthand in school, also! I show it to my students sometimes, when I want to impress them with my dinosaurish skills. I have really enjoyed the last few chapters (not poor Mr. Spenlow's death, of course).

I'm happy to see David shoulder these new burdens so manfully, instead of bemoaning his reduced circumstances and ruined plans. Of course, his youth is still evident in the dramatic flourishings with which his noble resolutions abound. I love the metaphor of him chopping his way through the forest of his difficulties, but his absurd desire to want these to be worse than they even are so that he can prove his devotion is just youthful folly.

And dear, lovely Dora! She is exactly how I thought she would be from that Fascinating Womanhood book I mentioned previously--the book that recommended women be patient and saintly, like Agnes, and childlike like Dora. It even encouraged women to "shake their curls, stomp their feet, and pout in childlike anger." I. can't. even. Anyway, I couldn't help but laugh as David tries to convince her that she can become a capable housewife. She can't even SAY the word "poor"! It was like trying to reason with a five-year-old.

I haven't read ahead and have no idea what happens, but the thought flashed across my mind that Miss Murdstone might try to make a case that David had something to do with Mr. Spenlow's death--she would love that opportunity! I hope this doesn't happen.

Things are heating up with Uriah as he expands his net to encompass the Micawbers. My fondness for them has decreased with what they did to poor Traddles, so I'm not as worried about them as I would have been. I just hope they won't be used as some sort of weapon against David.


message 198: by Debra Diggs (last edited Jun 08, 2020 06:11AM) (new)

Debra Diggs I took Gregg shorthand in school. Sadly, I was not any good at it.

Ever since the iou note, I have disliked the Micawbers. But I am very curious as what happens with them and Uriah.

Off to read the next chapter......


message 199: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8607 comments Mod
I love all these comments! Thank you especially Elizabeth. But it's time to post the next chapter summary :)


message 200: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jun 08, 2020 08:26AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8607 comments Mod
Chapter 39:

Betsey Trotwood, concerned about David's dejection, suggests as a ruse that he goes to make sure everything is running smoothly at her cottage in Dover. Dr Strong does not mind his absence for a few days, and Doctor's Commons can also get along very well without him, he knows, as their business has receded since Mr Spenlow's death. In fact he does not like the kind of tactics which have developed, for securing new clients. He is finding Mr. Jorkins to be "an easy-going, incapable sort of man", who runs Doctor's Commons in an "indifferent" sort of way.

David checks on the cottage at Dover, and is able to report back to his aunt that the donkeys are being kept away satisfactorily by her new tenants. He walks on into Canterbury, and is cheered by the familiar place, marvelling at how little it has changed, before reflecting that although a lot has happened in his own life, not much time has passed.

When he arrives at Mr Wickfield's house, he finds Mr Micawber working at the same desk, in the same little room which used to be Uriah Heep's. David asks him how he likes the law, and also to be working for Uriah Heep. Mr Micawber is sorry that he is not allowed free rein with his flowery language when writing legal letters, but that it is a "great pursuit". He says that he and his family are now tenants of Uriah Heep, and living in his old house. Also (after tactfully closing the door) that Uriah Heep has unfortunately not allowed him any of his salary before it is due. Nevertheless he still refers to him as "my friend Heep." He also says that Mr Wickfield is "a man of very excellent intentions; but ... obsolete" to which David responds:

"I am afraid his partner seeks to make him so."

They agree that it would be better not to talk of business.

Mr Micawber is very impressed with Agnes Wickfield, and expresses surprise that it is not Agnes who is David's secret love. David has an odd feeling that he had anticipated what Mr Micawber was going to say, before he said it. He leaves Mr Micawber to his work, a little sad that there is now a constraint between them.

David goes to see Agnes in her old room, and tells her how much he misses her, and her wise counsel. When he sees her again:

"an influence comes over me in that short interval that alters me, oh, how much for the better! What is it? What is your secret, Agnes?"

and is quite overcome. When he is calmer, Agnes tells him that he should look to Dora now, so David explains:

"She is a timid little thing, and easily disturbed and frightened" and tells her about his:

"declaration of poverty, about the cookery-book, the housekeeping accounts, and all the rest of it."

Agnes sees how it is at once, and laughingly scolds him for being so headstrong. She advises him to write to Dora's two aunts, explaining about himself and Dora, and being as open as he can. It would be best if they also ask Dora, and that he should say he will abide by any conditions they think right. David worries that this might not end in the result he hopes for, but Agnes says simply:

"Perhaps it would be better only to consider whether it is right to do this; and, if it is, to do it."

David plans to write a letter later that day, and goes downstairs to see Mr. Wickfield and Uriah Heep. Mr Wickfield asks David to stay with them for his stay, although Uriah now has David's old room. Against Uriah's false protestations, David says he will sleep in another room. It is clear right from the start how cowed Mr Wickfield is by Uriah Heep.

He goes back to see Agnes, but is disconcerted to find Mrs Heep there, because, she says the room is better "for her rheumatics". Over the next few hours, Mrs Heep dominates the conversation with her constant theme being her son. Both David and Agnes remain polite, but we are privy to David's innermost thoughts, which are very different and amusing. All the time she talks, Mrs Heep knits something which looks like a net:

"and as she worked away with those Chinese chopsticks of knitting-needles, she showed in the firelight like an ill-looking enchantress, baulked as yet by the radiant goodness opposite, but getting ready for a cast of her net by and by."

Mrs Heep's presence is so constant, that David is sure it has been planned and is deliberate. He has a sleepless night, imagining the Heeps "like two great bats hanging over the whole house, and darkening it with their ugly forms", and the whole process is repeated the next day. David decides to go for a walk as he wants to get away from Mrs Heep and think about how to see Agnes alone, and whether to tell her that Uriah has designs on her.

He is interrupted by Uriah himself, who has chased after him to catch up. David said he had wished to be alone, and Uriah immediately mentions his mother, and comments:

"All stratagems are fair in love, sir"

and talks of David as a rival. David is indignant, and tells Uriah that he is engaged to another. He pointedly tells Uriah that he thinks Agnes is far too good for him, and that he is:

"not fond of professions of humility".

Uriah seems to be as straightforward as he has ever been, and David is surprised at his account. Both Uriah's father and mother were poor, and attended charity schools where they were taught to abase themselves "always to know our place", and be humble:

"Be umble,” says father, “and you’ll do!” And really it ain’t done bad!’ ... “People like to be above you,” says father, “keep yourself down.” I am very umble to the present moment, Master Copperfield, but I’ve got a little power!’"

David "had never doubted his meanness, his craft and malice" but now believes that Uriah's "base, unrelenting, and revengeful spirit, must have been engendered by this early, and this long, suppression."

Uriah seems to be emboldened by the conversation, and arranges for himself, David and Mr Wickfield to be alone drinking after dinner. He proposes many toasts, and Mr Wickfield is drinking heavily. When Uriah alludes to "the fairest of her sex" Mr Wickfield's eyes are painfully drawn to his wife's portrait. Uriah continues:

"To be her father is a proud distinction, but to be her usband—’"

Divining his true meaning, Mr Wickfield utters a terrible cry, and David spends a long time calming him down, as he is behaving wildly, and seems to be deranged:

"He pointed to Uriah, pale and glowering in a corner, evidently very much out in his calculations, and taken by surprise.
‘Look at my torturer,’ he replied. ‘Before him I have step by step abandoned name and reputation, peace and quiet, house and home.’"


Uriah is petulant:

"There’s no harm done ... Can’t you see I am as umble as I can be? I tell you, if I’ve gone too far, I’m sorry."



Agnes comforts her father - Fred Barnard

But a lot of the truth comes out, mostly from Mr Wickfield. Agnes comes in, and seems to know instantly what has occurred. She takes him away.

David is to leave the next morning, and he begs Agnes not to sacrifice herself for "a mistaken sense of duty", and she tells him calmly that he need have no fears for her.

As he is about to leave Uriah's face appears by the coach, to say that everything is now smoothed over with Mr Wickfield, and that he had "plucked a pear before it was ripe. It’ll ripen yet! It only wants attending to. I can wait!’"

"... he made motions with his mouth as if the pear were ripe already, and he were smacking his lips over it."



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