The Rings of Saturn by WG Sebald (June 2020)

[Nigeyb]

Thanks Elizabeth - and well done for finishing the book

[Judy]

I will hopefully start this one next week, so am hoping the discussion will continue. :)

[Roman Clodia]

Ah ha, I tried downloading this again *and my annotations are back* - hurrah! Busy day today and Zoom party tonight but hope to sneak in some comments later.

Judy, looking forward to your thoughts when you start this. When I finished, I immediately wanted to turn back to the beginning and read it all over again!

There are some programmes on BBC Radio on Sebald, including an interview with the director of Patience, Nigeyb - not all are available on BBC Sounds but some are.

[Nigeyb]

Great news Judy - I keenly await your reaction


I'm delighted that your highlights are once again highlighted RC - looking forward to more sagely musings

Thanks for the BBC Sounds Sebald tip - I'll be attending to that this very day

[Nigeyb]

My copy of Patience (After Sebald) has arrived


Cannae wait to watch it

Roman Clodia's post about BBC Sounds inspired me to look on iTunes and I came across the Curiously Specific Book Club whose stapline is Taking a book for a walk… and a lot more

Here's the episode about The Rings of Saturn....

For the 8th CSB podcast, and the second in our East Anglian trilogy, we’re in Suffolk, following in the footsteps of German writer W.G. ‘Max’ Sebald as he walked from the little town of Somerleyton to the bleak prospects of Orford Ness, taking in a spectacular sweep of European history (most of it awful) on the way.

At the little railway station of Somerleyton, we start to suspect that all is not what it seems with Sebald’s journey, as we uncover an egregious case of not being able to tell one’s left from one’s right. We also ponder whether Sebaldians have actually read this book in quite as close a way as we intend to. In addition, we wonder if they are Sebaldians or Sebaldists.

Amid the ruins of Blundeston Prison, we ponder the fate of Reggie Kray, and imagine him waving at Sebald from the windows of his cell, and whether Sebald would even have known who he was.

In Lowestoft (where, according to Sebald, ’nearly a quarter of the population is now practically illiterate’) we hazard a guess at which hotel Max stayed in – and again wonder if he’s got his directions backwards.

Amid the ruins of Covehithe, we find the pigs that Sebald stroked as he walked by, and see the beach where he saw a couple ‘in the bottom of the pit’, amid the leafless trees collapsing into the sea.

In Southwold, we visit the extraordinary Sailors’ Reading Room, and we try (and fail) to track down Sebald’s claimed ‘Chinese’ steam train, while pondering how Max would have edited Wikipedia.

As we reach the end of our journey, we fail to get lost on Dunwich Heath, in the shadow of Sizewell B, and, just as spectacularly, we fail to find the model of the Temple of Herod on a farm in the flatlands of Suffolk.

https://www.curiouslyspecific.com/201...

Tell me you don't want to drop everything and listen to that

[Elizabeth (Alaska)]

Judy wrote: "I will hopefully start this one next week, so am hoping the discussion will continue. :)"

Yay! Always happy to have more insight and points of view.

[Roman Clodia]

Ooh, enticing! So they're unpacking the fiction in Sebald's text, sounds like.

In relation to that, my first annotation was the epigraph from Conrad's letter:

"Il faut pardonner à ces âmes malheureuses qui ont élu de faire le pèlerinage à pied, qui côtoient le rivage et regardent sans comprendre l'horreur de la lutte, la joie de vaincre ni le profond désespoir des vaincus."

"We should pardon those unfortunate souls who have chosen to make the pilgrimage on foot, who have rubbed shoulders with the shore and look upon, without understanding, the horror of the struggle, the joy of conquering or the profound despair of the conquered."

That idea of the pilgrimage and the 'rubbing shoulders with the shore' seems to point forward to the conceit of Sebald's walking tour which, more and more, I am seeing as merely fictional.

[Elizabeth (Alaska)]

Nigeyb wrote: "Tell me you don't want to drop everything and listen to that"

I'm not a listener, I'm a reader. It isn't just because listening just doesn't do it for me - my mind wanders, I'd rather be doing by seeing - but now that I've gotten older, my ears don't work as they did when young. So enjoy your broadcasts, podcasts, films, but I'll stick to books.

[Nigeyb]

Great point about Conrad RC, and the walking tour


I'm sorry you can no longer hear well enough to enjoy podcasts Elizabeth

I've now listened to the Curiously Specific Book Club podcast and the Backlisted podcast episode, also about Rings. Both are really enjoyable.

The Curiously Specific Book Club is very irreverent and also has amusing clips dropped into the soundscape. Definitely worth a listen and, as RC suggests, supports the suggestion that it was, at least in part, a fiction

The Backlisted podcast is much more straightforward (start at about 25 mins in to miss the opening section about other stuff) and has two well informed contributors and it further enriches the reading experience

[Roman Clodia]

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "I'm not a listener, I'm a reader."

Just a handful of years ago, I'd have said exactly the same. I've found listening *actively* to audiobooks or podcasts a skill I've had to hone.

I also find the best thing to put me to sleep at night is listening to something on audiobook that I already know: Agatha Christie and Jane Austen are favourites to lull me to sleep!

[Elizabeth (Alaska)]

Roman Clodia wrote: "I also find the best thing to put me to sleep at night is listening to something on audiobook "

I rarely have trouble falling asleep anymore. When I was even 10 years younger and for about 10 years, I would get up regularly and read for an hour or two before going back to bed and then sleeping well. On the rare occasion when it was possible, leaving the TV on helped (so similar to your audio books). I don't know how old you are, but I honestly think the problem for women is an age related thing, beginning to happen in the late-40s/early-50s and lasting for 10-15 or so years.

[Roman Clodia]

I'm in my 30s but I've always had trouble falling asleep. It's partly that I'm a natural night person so have to force myself to sleep earlier than I would choose because of having to get up for work, and partly that I find it difficult to switch my head off. One thing I like about this current working from home is that I can get up so much later!

[Elizabeth (Alaska)]

Arghhh. That whole body's sleep cycle and when it feels most comfortable thing. I have become a morning person. I'm awake and beginning to function about 4:30-5:00, so consequently lights out is pretty early. But it also works for me for time zones across the Atlantic and being able to converse almost real time.

[Nigeyb]

Nigeyb wrote: "My copy of Patience (After Sebald) has arrived"


I watched the first half hour last night - it's superb

The perfect accompaniment to the book

If you can get hold of a copy then I heartily recommend you do just that

Apparently the photos he took were just regular colour photos processed down at Snappy Snaps. He'd then go to a photocopy shop (this was the 1990s) and then copy the photo, then copy the copy etc until the photos were suitably grainy and degraded, and so evoked the atmosphere he was after.

[Roman Clodia]

I love that about the photos! There's definitely a process by which Sebald works very hard to make the work appear more artless and spontaneous than it is. Also the degrading of the images reflects that theme of decay and ruination we've been talking about.

It sounds like the sort of video (like the book) best taken in sips to savour and process. It had previously been on Prime but is currently unavailable :( I definitely will try to track it down.

[Roman Clodia]

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Sometimes the groups are small, as in a primary classroom that might see 2-3 children bully one other"

I just came across this in a thriller I'm reading which reminded me of Elizabeth's comment: the protagonist has just arrived in a woman's prison:

The yard reminded Tabitha of the school playground, the girls dividing into groups of the cool ones, the hangers on, the excluded, the defiant, the bullied, the lonely.

[Nigeyb]

Although, and by way of contrast, did you come across this recent news story....

The real Lord of the Flies: what happened when six boys were shipwrecked for 15 months

https://www.theguardian.com/books/202...

It paints a very different picture to what we might expect, and is in stark contast to the fictional Lord of the Flies

[Roman Clodia]

I love that story, Nigeyb, and no, hadn't seen it! I do agree that representations of 'human nature' (is it even a single 'thing'?) need to be historicised and contextualised.

One of the unexpected outcomes from our current situation is how much nicer and kinder people are being to each other - I'm a Londoner and even we are chatting to each other as we queue to get into the bank and supermarket, previously unheard of!

[Nigeyb]

Absolutely. In the right set of circumstances we can be a kind, caring, compassionate and cooperate species.

In other news, I have now finished the Grant Gee film Patience (After Sebald) and it's the perfect companion piece to the book. A really beautiful and inspiring film. I paid far more than I would usually splash out on a book or a film but feel it is money very well spent. I'll certainly be revisiting it soon.

[Nigeyb]

Another question for you all. Especially those in the UK. Have you walked any of Sebald's route?

I've only done the stretch from Southwold to Dunwich - and that by bicycle. It is a magical section of coastline though.

I've also spent time in Southwold, including the lighthouse, the green looking out to see where the the Battle of Sole Bay raged and, of course, the magical and memorable Sailors Reading Room.

I also spent a few days in Lowestoft - it is a bit grim, just as Sebald describes.

[Roman Clodia]

I've just listened to the Curiously Specific Book Club podcast - very entertaining! I didn't realise that people obsess so much about this book that there are cult tours to rewalk the walk.

Some thoughts that came to mind: the presenters see the book as being about a fear of death - which I disagree with. I did, though, love the idea of the narrator as a ghost (not Death itself, as they also suggest).

I was surprised to realise that Sizewell was never explicitly mentioned by Sebald - I was convinced it had been. Isn't that one of the strengths of his narrative that the suggestive becomes real in our minds?

Most importantly, are the 'errors' not mistakes but *clues* that Sebald deliberately plants precisely to draw attention to the slipperiness of his narrative and to undermine the reading of it as a realistic account of an actual journey? Ah ha!

[Roman Clodia]

Nigeyb wrote: " I have now finished the Grant Gee film Patience (After Sebald) and it's the perfect companion piece to the book. A really beautiful and inspiring film. I paid far more than I would usually splash out on a book or a film but feel it is money very well spent. I'll certainly be revisiting it soon."

I'm sure that in the pounds-per-pleasure equation, you'll be in profit! Just compare with the cost of a theatre/exhibition/opera/ballet ticket which yields just a few hours of pleasure.

[Roman Clodia]

Nigeyb wrote: "Another question for you all. Especially those in the UK. Have you walked any of Sebald's route?"

I'm afraid that I just don't 'get' landscapes :(
Partly for that reason, I very rarely leave London unless going on holiday or for work. I appreciate architecture but, tbh, the countryside creeps me out!

[Nigeyb]

Roman Clodia wrote: "I've just listened to the Curiously Specific Book Club podcast - very entertaining! I didn't realise that people obsess so much about this book that there are cult tours to rewalk the walk. "

Yes, that is quite surprising. Then again, I love visiting places I've read about it in books. Often using it as an excuse to travel hither and thither.

Roman Clodia wrote: "...are the 'errors' not mistakes but *clues* that Sebald deliberately plants precisely to draw attention to the slipperiness of his narrative and to undermine the reading of it as a realistic account of an actual journey?"

I think you've hit on something there RC. He certainly intends us to ponder the book and find meanings within it. This would chime perfectly with intentional errors to create a questioning mindset within the reader.

Roman Clodia wrote: "I very rarely leave London unless going on holiday or for work. I appreciate architecture but, tbh, the countryside creeps me out!"

That's interesting. By contrast, I like the countryside, walking, camping, swimming in rivers or the sea etc.

I also love cities too, but need to escape from them at regular intervals.

I'm trying to imagine being creeped out by the countryside. It's hard for me as it seems so benign to me (unless I've been recently watching Blair Witch, or a Ben Wheatley/Amy Jump film e.g. A Field in England etc.)

Roman Clodia wrote: "I'm sure that in the pounds-per-pleasure equation, you'll be in profit! Just compare with the cost of a theatre/exhibition/opera/ballet ticket which yields just a few hours of pleasure"

That's a great point. I'm going to start consciously trying to apply the pounds-per-pleasure equation

[Roman Clodia]

Nigeyb wrote: "I'm trying to imagine being creeped out by the countryside."

You and nearly everyone else I admit that to! It's the emptiness, the darkness (no streetlights), the isolation... One of my best friends moved to a village just outside Cambridge and when I go to stay with her I can't sleep at night as I miss the background sound of traffic and night-buses. Instead, there are owls outside the window - shudder!

[Roman Clodia]

Nigeyb wrote: "I'm going to start consciously trying to apply the pounds-per-pleasure equation"

Books are right at the top!

[Hugh]

I love real darkness, particularly when it is clear and you can really see the stars and walk by moonlight, but you rarely get that in England because of streetlights. I am rather your opposite RC - although I live in a city I prefer to take holidays in wilder places, and I love to walk. I don't know East Anglia very well - the area Sebald describes is a little beyond day trip range and doesn't appeal to me as a place to stay, though Southwold sounds very interesting.

[Roman Clodia]

I love walking too - just in my case its past the shops and round the common ;) !

[Pamela]

I've just started reading this, I'm already fascinated.

[Nigeyb]

That augers well Pamela - long may it continue

[Judy]

I've got to get on and prioritise this, because I've just noticed I won't be able to renew the ebook I've borrowed from the library.

I've started and am immediately sucked in - I remember reading the opening passage about Sebald's time in hospital when visiting an exhibition about this book at Norwich Castle some months back.

[Roman Clodia]

Judy, that exhibition sounds intriguing - do you remember what was on show?

So nice to hear you and Pamela are enjoying this.

[Judy]

The exhibition had a lot of Sebald's photos of East Anglia - I see it was actually about his links with East Anglia in general although a lot of it was about this book. Lots of details here:

https://www.visitnorfolk.co.uk/inspir...

We were mainly preoccupied with the section of the exhibition about my husband's late uncle, who made a huge model of the Temple and features in the book - there were videos of him which were lovely to see. I am looking forward to reading this part.

[Nigeyb]

Judy wrote: "We were mainly preoccupied with the section of the exhibition about my husband's late uncle, who made a huge model of the Temple and features in the book - there were videos of him which were lovely to see. I am looking forward to reading this part."

He's your husband's late Uncle!

How wonderful

There's footage of him on local TV in the film about this book that I watched on DVD... Patience: After Sebald

I wonder why Sebald gave him a different name in The Rings of Saturn? Any insights Judy?

And can you (exclusively) reveal why he decided that the temple should not be show to anyone after his death? A decision which, quite naturally, the family respect.

[Roman Clodia]

Judy, how fascinating! I thought I'd recalled the Temple having disappeared, possibly having been destroyed, but could be wrong?

[Nigeyb]

It still exists RC. Check out this December 2019 article which is very informative and also references Sebald's book.


https://www.edp24.co.uk/features/mode...

Section about the model now....

Farmer Alec Garrard spent 20 years building this vast model of the temple complex. People came from around the world to see it, but in 2010 he died and ever since the huge model has been quietly gathering dust and cobwebs.

Section about The Rings of Saturn...

The temple also features in a book by celebrated writer WG Sebald, who came across the temple, and its creator, as he was writing his literary masterpiece The Rings of Saturn. He changed Alec's name to Thomas Abrams for the fictionalised travelogue, and a video of Alec, speaking Sebald's words, features in the exhibition Lines of Sight: WG Sebald's East Anglia at the Castle Museum, Norwich, until January 5.

[Roman Clodia]

Nigeyb wrote: "It still exists RC."

Wow, thank you! Yes, that makes it very mysterious why he didn't want it to be on show - I wonder if he felt it wasn't as finished as perhaps he wanted it to be?

[Judy]

Sorry, I don't have any answers, as I didn't know him all that well, although he was a lovely man! I think it may just be that it is in a private building which wouldn't be accessible. I see his daughter says in the article she would like to see it in a museum, and she is writing a book about the temple, so I'm sure I will find out more when that is finished.

I don't know why Sebald gave Alec a different name in the book - maybe he often gave different names to his characters? I think it has always been known locally that he was the original of the character.

[Elizabeth (Alaska)]

Judy wrote: "I think it has always been known locally that he was the original of the character."

Well, it isn't reasonable to think there was more than one person working on such a model.

[Judy]

I've read the sections about Lowestoft and Somerleyton - I have visited Somerleyton Hall years ago but it clearly used to be far more spectacular. I would like to revisit but will wait until things are more back to normal! If anyone wants to know what it looks like, this is its website:
https://www.somerleyton.co.uk/

[Judy]

The story of Major Le Strange is pretty amazing - living in silence with his housekeeper all those years and then leaving her a vast fortune.

Googling Major le Strange, it looks as if Sebald probably made up this amazing story - a book called Searching for Sebald: Photography After W.G. Sebald by Lise Patt says: "No Major George Wyndham Le Strange ever lived in Henstead, no Florence Barnes appears in the voting registers, and the Eastern Daily Press has no record of the clipping Sebald provides ever appearing in the pages of the newspaper."

This is making me wonder if the gardener at Somerleyton obsessed with Germany was real either?

[Elizabeth (Alaska)]

Makes it ever more of a novel than a travelogue that some things are, in fact, fiction.

[Nigeyb]

Yes indeed Elizabeth


On the film I watched about this book, Sebald's publisher stated Sebald wanted it to fit into as many categories as possible.

Publishers in the UK agree to a maximum of three categories for any book, so on the cover it states history/travel/memoir however there is no doubt, and as RC states eloquently above, that he tries to wrongfoot the reader by making her question what it is she is reading, and how much to take at face value. It's clear to me that a sizeable chunk is "fiction" (whatever that means!)

[Pamela]

I've finished this now and really enjoyed it, so glad it was chosen as a Buddy Read. It was nothing like I was expecting, and I loved the eccentric characters like Browne and FitzGerald and Swinburne. I also enjoyed the recurring themes that kept circling round, like rings.

[Elizabeth (Alaska)]

Pamela wrote: "I also enjoyed the recurring themes that kept circling round, like rings."

I obviously missed so much of what you all read in this one.

[Nigeyb]

That's great news Pamela - I'm very pleased you enjoyed it so much

[Roman Clodia]

Me too, Pamela - and I love your description 'imagined travelogue': spot on!

I didn't know what to expect either when I started it and our discussions on what it's 'about' as well as the nature of its fictionality have been so helpful in crystalising my thoughts.

[Roman Clodia]

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "I obviously missed so much of what you all read in this one."

I wonder to what extent you think this might be to do with a US versus European perspective? I ask this because I'd been talking to someone about war memorials recently and it seems to be the case that while US memorials tend to portray ideas of heroism and triumph, European ones also commemorate victims and the defeated. It might account for some of us being more culturally attuned to the themes of destruction and ruination perhaps? Very interested in what others think...

[Pamela]

RC, I agree the discussions here are really useful - I reread this thread after finishing the book and it added a lot to my own impressions.

[Elizabeth (Alaska)]

Roman Clodia wrote: "US memorials tend to portray ideas of heroism and triumph, European ones also commemorate victims and the defeated. "

I would agree that, in general, Americans are optimistic rather than pessimistic. I don't agree that US Memorials don't commemorate the victims and the defeated. The Vietnam War Memorial is 2 acres in size and lists the over 58,000 dead and missing in a war where we definitely did not triumph.

Sebald never lived under Hitler. But I think he did live with the national shame of being German and I think that negativism comes through in this.