Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Discussion - Les Miserables
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Week 1 - Fantine Books 1-3
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Laurele wrote: "Andrea wrote: I've just started Dorothy Sayers' "Mind of the Maker" on audio book. She makes some very interesting comments on Aristotle's poetics and moral law, among other things. Some here might..."I've never read any of her philosophical/theological work, although I've read all her Wimsey books (they're addictive!). Please share your insights, Andrea.
Before we move on, I need to take a moment to talk about what for me was one of the, if not the, most extraordinary few pages of the book: Book 2, Chapter 7, Profoundest Despair. It starts with the question at the end of Chapter 6: "What had happened within his soul?" The questions this section asks are universal. What is the responsibility of society to individuals? Why should we punish, and why do we punish? Does an excess of punishment make hardened criminals out of potentially reformable men and women? Jean Valjean "had no weapon but his hatred. He resolved to sharpen it in the chain gang and take it with him when he left."
One thing struck me as so incongruous. He learned reading, writing, and arithmetic because "to increase his knowledge was to strengthen his hatred." Don't we like to think if education as a reformative process, as a civilizing process? How do we deal with basic education being used to strengthen hatred?
And then the questions Hugo asks. "At this point, it is difficult not to reflect a moment. Can human nature be so entirely transformed inside and out? Can man, created good by God, be made wicked by man? Can the heart become distorted, contract deformities and incurable infirmities, under the pressure of disproportionate grief, like the spinal column under a low ceiling?" [An image worthy of Homer.:]
Extraordinary questions. Does Hugo answer them, and if so how?
"The questions this section asks are universal. What is the responsibility of society to individuals? Why should we punish, and why do we punish? Does an excess of punishment make hardened criminals out of potentially reformable men and women? Jean Valjean "had no weapon but his hatred. He resolved to sharpen it in the chain gang and take it with him when he left." I think Hugo meant to show us, through Valjean's story, how society's neglect transforms a man who is basically good into a man full of hatred. Society first failed him by not providing any charitable help for his family, forcing him to steal that loaf of bread. Then the excessively harsh punishment turned him into a hardened criminal.
"One thing struck me as so incongruous. He learned reading, writing, and arithmetic because "to increase his knowledge was to strengthen his hatred." Don't we like to think if education as a reformative process, as a civilizing process? How do we deal with basic education being used to strengthen hatred?
"
Because the penal system was based on revenge instead of rehabilitation, a man like Valjean had nothing but reciprocal hatred towards his oppressor, i.e. the society that devised the laws and jails that made him suffer. Education is just another weapon that he could use to strike against them. That said, I'm still wondering how basic education is going to help him take a revenge against society --- does Valjean think that by being educated he could participate in a revolution against the oppressive state? He doesn't seem like a revolutionary to me. He doesn't seem to subscribe to any ideology except for an intense, but vague hatred towards those who treat him badly.
"And then the questions Hugo asks. "At this point, it is difficult not to reflect a moment. Can human nature be so entirely transformed inside and out? Can man, created good by God, be made wicked by man? Can the heart become distorted, contract deformities and incurable infirmities, under the pressure of disproportionate grief, like the spinal column under a low ceiling?" [An image worthy of Homer.:] "
I think this will be duly answered through the course of the book. : )
The interesting thing for me in that quote is that Hugo seems to subscribe to the notion that man is naturally good, and only becomes corrupted by society. Is this a version of Rousseau's "Man is born free but everywhere is in chains."?
Sandybanks wrote: The interesting thing for me in that quote is that Hugo seems to subscribe to the notion that man is naturally good, and only becomes corrupted by society. Is this a version of Rousseau's "Man is born free but everywhere is in chains."?Exactly. Hugo is taking a Rousseauian, Romantic view of man.
Laurele wrote: "Sandybanks wrote: The interesting thing for me in that quote is that Hugo seems to subscribe to the notion that man is naturally good, and only becomes corrupted by society. Is this a version of Ro..."So this is an interesting light on the theological aspects of the novel for me. Of course, for many theologians, the whole concept that man is born good would obviate the need for Christ's atoning sacrifice. If we have good within us, we don't need to have it bought for us. I will be thinking about this in the rest of the book.
The other thing I find interesting is what he might have hoped to gain through a basic education. Perhaps he was considering ways of deceiving people, that it would be easier to cheat if he had some of the weapons that society had used against him. For example, he could read his passport, could read public notices etc, which might prove an advantage at some point. The illiterate are usually aware, at least in comparatively modern times, of the big disadvantage they have compared to the literate.
The other interesting thing
"So this is an interesting light on the theological aspects of the novel for me. Of course, for many theologians, the whole concept that man is born good would obviate the need for Christ's atoning sacrifice. If we have good within us, we don't need to have it bought for us. I will be thinking about this in the rest of the book."But Hugo also seems to champion a kind of a Christian morality, exemplified by the Bishop Myriel who, in an imitation of Christ's atonement, 'redeems' Valjean with the silver. I don't know much about theology, but isn't this contrary to Rousseau's conception? Or can the two concepts exist side by side without contradicting each other?
Sandybanks: I was also struck by the apparent contradiction of the saintly priest (implying a Christian world view) and the idea of man as naturally good. However, if Myriel is intended as commentary, Hugo could use him to contrast the usual actions of a bishop with the ideal ones without actually buying into Christianity at all. This leaves room for his interest in the nature of man and what happens to him in the world.One of my favorite quotes from this section was something Myriel wrote in the margin of a book, a list of the names of God. He ends it with Solomon's name for God - Compassion - and declares that this is the best name of all. If I'm right that Hugo is using Christianity to tell his story without believing in it, this might be a way of introducing one of his themes - the inhumanity of man to man - through principles of Christianity that dovetail with it. IMHO, Hugo is saying Compassion is the greatest gift one man can give to another, and is just using this passage about God to make his point. For me, this passage also sums up Myriel's character and what happens when he gives Valjean the silver. The priest's compassion for others is at the bottom of everything he does and motivates both his charity and his lack of fear. I know that he is rather extreme and some have said too perfect, but I really love his character. It is so beautiful as well as astonishing to see a selfless human being in action.
I'm just getting caught up with these posts, so one other thing I'd like to comment on is Fantine. Of the eight characters introduced and discussed when Fantine appears, she is both more modest and more loving than the others and it seems a contradiction in her character. But perhaps it isn't if Hugo is allowing that people are naturally good and only corrupted by others. Fantine is the youngest and least experienced of the group. Her modesty is treated as a virtue, and her involvement with Felix seems like a misjudgment on her her part, one motivated by her love for him. As for why she loves him, I think again her youth may be part of the reason. I think she must also be something of an angel to find something in Felix to love.
What a prolific group! I just joined but have finished the first assignment. Catching up with the posts has been as exhausting as reading the book in a short period of time. I'm hoping it won't be as difficult now that i'm caught up.The following are things i noted primarily because they were mentioned in posts. I don't know that they'll illuminate but it's easy to forget bits in a book this size.
--Names. I believe it was mentioned that women & children generally go unnamed. One name we didn't get was Jean's brother-in-law. Without that, i felt we would lose clues if he ran across the children later in the book. Alas, i noticed this before Hugo told us we wouldn't learn more about the family.
--Someone asked why Jean didn't ask for help when the family needed bread. I found it interesting that he asked the same question, although it appears it was only during his post-prison, post-Bienvenu rumination (Book 2 chapter 7).
--Someone questioned the almost saintliness of Monseigneur Bienvenu. His early life was worldly then he converted, in a way, to the spiritual. Perhaps its this which made him adhere closer to the ideal. Hugo seems to think his early life was dismissable, so i hesitate to mention it. Still, today we would comment upon the fact that he wasn't always a "holy" person. It may also shed a bit of light in his exchange with G, the Revolutionary, he counseled as the latter approached death. Maybe?
There are many quotes i liked but this one from chapter 10 (spoken by G) struck me.
"The brutalities of progress are called revolutions. When they are over we realize this: that the human race has been roughly handled, but that it has advanced."
deborah
Andrea wrote: So this is an interesting light on the theological aspects of the novel for me. Of course, for many theologians, the whole concept that man is born good would obviate the need for Christ's atoning sacrifice. If we have good within us, we don't need to have it bought for us. I will be thinking about this in the rest of the book.The other thing I find interesting is what he might have hoped to gain through a basic education.
Right, Andrea. It's a good story, but not to be taken as gospel.
As to the question about education aiding a life of crime: don't we have a lot of people in our prisons now studying law for ways to get away with things and all sorts of other arts for ways to deceive people?
Sandybanks wrote: But Hugo also seems to champion a kind of a Christian morality, exemplified by the Bishop Myriel who, in an imitation of Christ's atonement, 'redeems' Valjean with the silver. I don't know much about theology, but isn't this contrary to Rousseau's conception? Or can the two concepts exist side by side without contradicting each other?There are differing views within Christianity about this. One is that we are all sinners who need to come to Christ for salvation and cleansing and then use his help to become better persons. The other is the social gospel, which holds that man is innately good and just needs to be given the right environment to flourish in his goodness. I subscribe to the first, but the second has given us a lot of good novels.
Laurele wrote: "Exactly. Hugo is taking a Rousseauian, Romantic view of man. "In part, certainly. But I'm not sure that's all.
Sandybanks wrote: "But Hugo also seems to champion a kind of a Christian morality, exemplified by the Bishop Myriel who, in an imitation of Christ's atonement, 'redeems' Valjean with the silver. I don't know much about theology, but isn't this contrary to Rousseau's conception? Or can the two concepts exist side by side without contradicting each other?"Very nice comment. Yes, there does seem to be a complexity here. On the one side, man is naturally good but (in most cases, but not Myriel's) is corrupted by society. But on the other hand, there is certainly Christian redemption at work, which is based, as several have commented, on the concept of original sin, which is contra-Rousseau.
Just proving that already, in only week two, it's clear that this is not a simplistic, one-faceted novel!
madrano wrote: "What a prolific group! I just joined but have finished the first assignment. Catching up with the posts has been as exhausting as reading the book in a short period of time."Welcome, and thanks for your excellent contribution. I continue to be impressed not only with the number of contributions but with their quality -- there are so many points that people are bringing up that I hadn't noticed in my own reading. It's really exciting being part of this incredible group, and seeing all the new contributors jumping in and adding so much to the discussion.
Everyman lays out some of the profound questions Hugo is raising and, occasionally, answering in this book. I started keeping a list of the times I think he provides an opinion. Unfortunately, I didn't start keeping the list until page 810! However, it is not giving anything away to say that I titled the list: "Hugo's social project: enlightenment."
In reality though, I think we may want to keep an eye on the dialectical tension between education/enlightenment and something Deborah (mandrano) cited from Fantine: "The brutalities of progress are called revolutions. When they are over we realize this: that the human race has been roughly handled, but that it has advanced."
In reality though, I think we may want to keep an eye on the dialectical tension between education/enlightenment and something Deborah (mandrano) cited from Fantine: "The brutalities of progress are called revolutions. When they are over we realize this: that the human race has been roughly handled, but that it has advanced."
I for one found Bishop Bienvenu entirely real and believable. He is a delightful palate cleanser before diving into the darker worlds of Jean Valjean and the four young, carefree, lighthearted, treacherous lads and their abandoned lasses.I guess I would expect so saintly a character to be cloistered, rather than among the secular clergy, let alone a bishop. But we are told he owes his see to the merest chance, a random encounter with Napoleon (of all people!). The thing I found least believable was that at his advanced age he still had any silver left to give away.
Laurele wrote: "Sandybanks wrote: But Hugo also seems to champion a kind of a Christian morality, exemplified by the Bishop Myriel who, in an imitation of Christ's atonement, 'redeems' Valjean with the silver. I d..."Yes, good reminder that theological consistency is not necessary for a good story.
Roger wrote: The thing I found least believable was that at his advanced age he still had any silver left to give away.At one point the bishop says that he'd have a hard time eating off anything but silver. One of his peccadilloes, which makes it the more believable for me when he gives the candlesticks as well to Jean Valjean. It's consistent, I think, with the bishop as written to take the opportunity to divest himself for the poor.
Finally finished the first section; reward... I get to read the discussion thread! :)
Paula wrote: "Finally finished the first section; reward... I get to read the discussion thread! :)"Congratulations! Have a cup of tea, and then onward and upward!!
Have to add my 'two cents worth' to this discussion - apologies for having a limited ability to dissect literature; the below are merely my impressions thus far.First - I think Bienvenu is a believable character but primarily because he was not always so perfect; he is a relatively reformed character himself, but I think it can be dangerous to think that because Bienvenu became such a wonderful, almost 'saintly' person after his personal reformation, that everyone could be thus redeemed. The scene with Valjean being brought back as the thief of the silver, Bienvenu's reaction and response, is striking to me. I felt ashamed for Valjean, and thought that after Bienvenu's reaction ... well, how could Valjean still do something as terrible as bully a young child out of his money? Valjean was impacted by Bienvenu's actions, and seemed to feel deeply his shame and regret. Yet that didn't prevent him from treating the child terribly that same day! I lost sympathy for Valjean then and there, despite his past.
Second - I was disturbed by the four 'lads and lasses' and specifically the treatment of the men toward their mistresses. It all seemed to be in good fun, even the men's departure. However, when Tholomyes delivered his speech, full of barely disguised and sometimes outright insults, the women still sat still, waiting to be brought gold. Then the letter referring to "Parents - you barely know the meaning of the word..." was the height of insult. It seemed he was referring to the women, whom the men enjoyed for 2 years, as not quite human, as mere things for their enjoyment, to be tossed aside at will.
Third - I agree that literature should not be one's only source for historical references, but it can certainly be used to shed some light (sometimes a dimmer light than at other times) on society and culture. It is, to me, always interesting what people wrote about, what was accepted for publication, what the public thought was worth the price to purchase, and what has endured throughout the centuries. Even Meyers (alas!) will have an impact, as it shows what our contemporary society has deemed popular literature, and worthy of our money during a tough economic time.
I, for one, am glad of the differing opinions and the ability of this group (and other groups on GR) to see works of literature through more than one lens; it makes this reading so much richer to not only enjoy the text of Hugo, but the comments and discussion of other readers.
Now... as E-man said, onward and upward!!
I am! I've had that book for years and have not gotten very far into it yet. Where did you get the audio version, Andrea? Audible doesn't have it.