Vorkosigan 16--Gentleman Joe & the Red Queen--note--numbers are OUR reading order only

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

please comment about Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen here.

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

Done. Still not that crazy about this book. It was nice to see the characters from a different viewpoint, I guess.

[Kalin]

Hah, when I heard people calling this novel essentially fanfiction, I thought they were exaggerating or complaining. Nope. In the same way that LMB plays with genres in her other books, this one seems to LITERALLY be her take on (somewhat erotic) fanfic.

[Oleksandr, a.k.a. Acorn]

I liked the book. I consider it a nice summing up of the series plus a whole circle in characters, going back to roots. Yes, there is no plot as such, no heroic deeds or exploits, but no strange coincidences, so overall a nice cozy read

[Kalin]

I stayed up late to finish tonight. I just put it down, and feel incredibly satisfied. I'm sitting somewhere between really liked it and loved it. It had some wonderful callbacks and bookends, and it was really nice to have a contemplative, mature book to end this series with. Looking back on Miles' forty years of life from the eyes of his mother, whose inner thoughts we haven't intimately visited since the beginning, was also really nice.

I understand why the book is polarizing and controversial. The retcon is massive, it was very jarring, and I was prepared at the beginning not to like it as a result. There are definitely questions to be had about abuse of power and nepotism (Aral pursuing his military inferior Jole), which LMB tried to address but didn't succeed to everyone's satisfaction.

But also, I think there are probably some people for whom the rigid image of the faithful widow was shattered by this book, and I am glad for that. Exploring life after loss, and love found in later-life (too many Ls, sorry), is something this book did incredibly well. I thought this story did Cordelia and Aral's story justice and allowed her to move on.

In short: I found this book beautiful.

[Antti]

Yeah, I feel the same, although I got to admit the book was also pretty weak in actual plot. The choice Jole had to make (view spoiler)[ between career and family (hide spoiler)] was pretty clichéd. But still, this was nice ending.

I found Cordelia's reactions very in-character: I'm guessing many people who had adverse reactions to this book had built some sort of picture of Cordelia in their heads that wasn't actually supported in canon.

And once again LMB does her trademark exploration of morally gray areas, this time the highly ethically dubious relationship between Aral and Jole. I liked that a lot.

[Oleksandr, a.k.a. Acorn]

Kalin wrote: "There are definitely questions to be had about abuse of power and nepotism (Aral pursuing his military inferior Jole), which LMB tried to address but didn't succeed to everyone's satisfaction."

I glossed over it mainly because we are presented Aril and a good and honest person, who would try to force anyone hierarchically lower to undesired relations or use his standing for own gain and not for the good of Barrayar. I thought those two as fail-safes were enough. I understand that that is a problem now

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

I really hadn't thought about the ethically dubious Jole/Aral part. Knowing Aral, would he have done anything unethical? Doubtful.

And my problem was not with Cordelia. It was that the book exploded my picture of the Aral/Cordelia relationship. And of course Cordelia's Betan mores make it totally plausible. So it makes sense that A&J were together all those years.

I just felt as if I got sideswiped. There were basically no clues in the prior books, so I figure she just came up with it. In fact, in some book, Cordelia said (to Mark??) that she, a female soldier, resolved something for Aral, allowing him to fall for a woman.

I do love that Cordelia and Jole didn't screw up their chance. But I found the book pretty dull, for the most part, at least compared to the others.

And now I want some books about the grandkids, definitely. I want the oldest (artsy) boy to defer that countship to his (probably more capable personality-wise) sister and have the Council of Counts enter into a furious fight. With Miles and Cordelia helping the change/charge, and with Gregor smiling, a twinkle in his eye, saying, "Let's see what happens."

And I want to see Ivan's 1/4 Cetagandian kids.

[Kalin]

Kateblue wrote: "I really hadn't thought about the ethically dubious Jole/Aral part. Knowing Aral, would he have done anything unethical? Doubtful. "

Though I just think LMB has blind spots sometimes, and includes ethically dubious scenarios as if they're okay. Like the part of Mirror Dance we talked about a few months ago, where I felt uncomfortable with Miles getting into a relationship one of the Duronas -- that lapse in his caregiver's professional ethics was just glossed over because LMB, it seemed, wanted the romance.

I just felt as if I got sideswiped. There were basically no clues in the prior books, so I figure she just came up with it.

Yep, I definitely felt blindsided. This was a major retcon, and the scant mentions of Jole in past books do not constitute a real foreshadowing. It was out of left field. The one reason I'm okay with it, is because it's SO in character for Miles, in his tunnel-vision, to be completely oblivious about this aspect of his parents' lives. And we've been inside Miles' head for over a dozen books, and two decades inside the story, so in a way it's fair for us to have been just as oblivious.

And now I want some books about the grandkids, definitely.

If more come, I'm on board the Vorkosigan train for good. But I can understand if she's reluctant to continue the series at this point. Both Ivan and Cordelia now have very clear closing narrative arcs, and to a lesser extent Miles does too. Although The world and the characters and the Vorkosigan family are so well-realized that I can imagine getting to know the next generation, does LMB want to keep writing them indefinitely? And like I asked in the Cryoburn thread, how would one even provide Miles with a conclusive narrative closure?

[Allan]

I for one am glad she stopped where she did. It’s logical and brings everything to a nice closure, as opposed to jumping the shark. There’s room for a whole second saga based on the grandkids but that’s not going to happen at Bujold’s age. Maybe they could get Brandon Sanderson to do it.

[Oleksandr, a.k.a. Acorn]

I like the fact that LMB hasn't milked the series for money till it died like some authors do, this makes the whole series worth reading

I agree with Kalin that sometimes LMB allows for possibly unethical behavior and we 'eat it up' because we know that characters cannot do bad intentionally

[Joe]

Interesting comments... I feel like this wasn't a finale as much as an epilogue.... it all started with Cordelia, and ends with her.

I thought there WERE hints, actually... I wasn't surprised at all at the retcon... and it actually made a ton of sense.

The problem is it didn't really contribute anything else... it's another 4-5 years in the future, and nothing is different. Miles has his kids, and even though we see him, we get no sense of those kids or him as a father, and his wife is just a generic perfect mom.

I wanted to see some consequences of the find in 'Captain Vorpatril's Alliance' (which was just barely hinted at).. I want to know how Vorkosigan space is going as far as socially.. I want more world building.. this is a great universe that has been barely scratched.

As a whole, I find I'd call it a good, but not great series. The characters are awesome, and some quite memorable, but the plot and setting never quite live up to its promise.

I'd actually rather the author run it into the ground until I don't want to read anymore, then leave me wondering (I'm looking at YOU, David Weber and Orson Scott Card)

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

Kalin wrote: "Like the part of Mirror Dance we talked about a few months ago, where I felt uncomfortable with Miles getting into a relationship one of the Duronas -- that lapse in his caregiver's professional ethics"

When I read this, I just thought (from the way she introduced it) that the doctor's mores were different on Jackson's Whole. So it really didn;t bother me. But that "oblivious" comment re: being in Miles head? Oh, yeah!

Joe wrote: "I wanted to see some consequences of the find in 'Captain Vorpatril's Alliance'"

Me, too! Their kids! And maybe a 35 year younger little sister for Ivan. I mean, Beta medical technology, right? Alys and Illyan?

Allan wrote: "Maybe they could get Brandon Sanderson to do [the grandkid's books]."

Oh, not Sanderson--Bujold is too concise for Sanderson to try to fill in. I think Becky Chambers. Other author suggestions?

[Oleksandr, a.k.a. Acorn]

Kateblue wrote: "Oh, not Sanderson--Bujold is too concise for Sanderson to try to fill in. I think Becky Chambers. Other author suggestions?.."

I cannot think of an equivalent author with similar style