January Classics Read - The Picture of Dorian Gray

[Purvika]

Shinjini wrote: "Anirudh and Purvika, I will reply to your spoilers tomorrow. Just really tired today. Sorry. :("

Lol its okay. ..take your time..I ain't going anywhere ;)

[Shinjini]

Smitha, of course you deserve it. I don't give undeserved compliments. :P

Ishita, sorry I hadn't seen your comment when I made mine. You are very visible, don't worry. :P

Purvika, that is nice to hear after all the blackmail. xD

[Purvika]

*sheepish* Blackmail....who is doing blackmail...*innocent look*

[Purvika]

@Ishita (view spoiler)[ I really hope someone shoot him(Henry) down by the time book ends lol.. (hide spoiler)]

[IShita]

Purvika wrote: "@Ishita [spoilers removed]"


Be carefull what you wish for! :P

[Purvika]

@Ishita (view spoiler)[ When he behaves such way..I feel... He should be shot down by Gray himself lol.. much deserving medicine :P (hide spoiler)]

[IShita]

Purvika wrote: "@Ishita [spoilers removed]"

I don't want to say anything to spoil it for you :P

[Purvika]

Ishita wrote: "Purvika wrote: "@Ishita [spoilers removed]"

I don't want to say anything to spoil it for you :P"

Uh huh. ..I will be done by them by tonight. .. took too many days already :/

[Anirudh]

@Shinjini, that's the same as not being :/

@Purvika, (view spoiler)[Not necessarily. He did not torment others. He simply stated things with he knew would fascinate others or horrify them. Either way they views him with certain awe. He is very subtle. He does not wish to control everything around him but likes to toy with the feelings of others. His immediate determination to get acquainted with Dorian proves that. I think Basil knew that and that's why did not want those two to meet. Like I said in my earlier post, he is the sort of man that convinces others that jumping off a cliff is a good idea then stands back and watches them.

Henry is in fact a mysterious character. We do not really get to read anything that he does. We only hear about him from others. It is quite possible that despite all his speeches and opinions he himself never tried any of his own ideas. He does not do this to fill the emptiness of his married life. In fact he was the one who cares very little for marriage. If there is an unhappy marriage it is because of his own choosing. He does and says things because it makes him stand out and it shocks people.

I don't think he is deprived of a real relationship. He is in every position to have one. He simply chooses not to because he is bored of it. (hide spoiler)]

@Ishita, (view spoiler)[ Perhaps he did. Although it is unclear whether it was malicious or not. I think it was in a very vague way. He knew Dorian and could have stopped him or not influenced him in the first place. But he did neither.

Wait, are you saying there is a gay undertone or are you saying there isn't one? :/
Henry does admire Dorian but only as something he can possess and influence. (hide spoiler)]

[Purvika]

@Anirudh (view spoiler)[ Isn't it a question to think about if he is bored of a relationship then how come he is not deprived of it ? He himself had stated at the start that he and his wife never ask each other's whereabouts and if by chance they somehow meet at a place they weren't suppose to...The they laugh it off... quoting --->>>
“Not at all,” answered Lord Henry, laying his hand upon his shoulder; “not at all, my dear Basil. You seem to forget that I am married, and the one charm of marriage is that it makes a life of deception necessary for both parties. I never know where my wife is, and my wife never knows what I am doing. When we meet—we do meet occasionally, when we dine out together, or go down to the Duke’s—we tell each other the most absurd stories with the most serious faces. My wife is very good at it—much better in fact than I am. She never gets confused over her dates, and I always do. But when she does find me out, she makes no row at all. I sometimes wish she did, but she merely laughs at me.”

This shows they deceive each other... and he very much does all sort of things he talks very proudly about. Also, you must see the last line Anirudh. He wishes his wife to make a issues about his "confused over dates" but she laugh it off. This line shows he long for a relationship he can never have. Which in turn have made him cynical of any other relationship. Also, at one point he had told Gray that he had indulged with many actress. Which shows that he says with experience. And I must say... toying with once life is very much same as tormenting. Though, tormenting is very strong a word. Still the aftereffects of his words are quite appalling. Which Basil knew thus he tried to talk him out of influencing gray which he couldn't accept because he want to have a supreme control over every thing around him (hide spoiler)]

[Anirudh]

@Purvika, (view spoiler)[ That line doesn't necessarily mean that he longed for such a relationship. He was merely joking with Basil. Because throughout the novel nothing suggests that he wanted it. He is in a position to easily get such a relationship. But there is no indication that he does. And his wife's first conversation with Dorian indicates that she knew her husband's nature and was a bit jealous. But she also seems to have given up on him. Hence she never asks him about his errors in dates.
Remember Basil telling him "You never say a moral thing, and you never do a wrong thing."?

And this brings me to my main point about Henry. Everything we know about him is based on what he says to other people or what other people say about him. He says he's indulged with many actresses but has he? Like I said before, he never seems to commit any of the sins he so frequently talks about. He only encourages Dorian to do so. Even tells him that the latter likes him because he does everything Dorian could not. But does he really? His nature is to impress/shock others by saying the most unexpected things. And yet he does not leave his wife, nor does he break any social customs. So I think he's all talk and nothing much more.

It's not exactly tormenting nor him wanting supreme control. He never forces anyone to do anything. He only plants ideas and sits back. (hide spoiler)]

Only for people who have finished reading
(view spoiler)[I dislike Dorian because he always blames others for his misdeeds. He blames Sibyl Vane for ruining his impression of her. Then he blames Basil for the portrait, then Henry and his book for corrupting him. All the while it was him that was consciously making that decision to indulge in hedonism. He could have stopped but he did not. (hide spoiler)]

[Ahtims]

@Anirudh, I too dislike Dorian for the same reasons.
(view spoiler)[
One thing that bothers me is that towards the end of the book.i remember reading about Henry being divorced and shunned by society. If their marriage was so open, why divorce? (hide spoiler)]

[Anirudh]

@Smitha, (view spoiler)[ She ran away didn't she? Maybe she had enough of Lord Henry (hide spoiler)]

[Anirudh]

(view spoiler)[ Sibyl Vane was too foolish in the book. She simply threw her life away for a man who she didn't even know. If she was married to Dorian he might have come out of Henry's influence.

I think Dorian broke up with her because Henry didn't like her and somehow Dorian felt that that dislike reflected upon him. (hide spoiler)]

[Ahtims]

Anirudh wrote: "@Smitha, [spoilers removed]"
Oh. I already forgot the specific details. :/

[Anirudh]

@Purvika, finished reading?

[Shinjini]

Regarding my opinion about Lord Henry's view on marriage, (view spoiler)[ He was never serious about whatever he said. Notice how he never did a single thing that he said or influenced other people like Dorian to do? Henry is the perfect example of someone who doesn't follow through. He is the kind of person who likes shocking people with his statements. I don't think he pined for his wife or wanted the relationship to ever get better. In fact, I think he was forced into marriage and never meant to get married at all! One of the reasons why I thought he was secretly homosexual was because he never exhibited feelings towards any woman. In fact, he wasn't even remotely interested. But when it came to Dorian, he meant to impress him and make Dorian pine for and idolise him.

His wife did good to leave him in the end. They barely spoke, everyone knew that theirs was an open marriage many might even have speculated about Henry's sexuality as well. He didn't have any children so it might as well have been societal pressure that led Henry to marry his wife (because he didn't want to cause a scandal). I briefly remember Henry's wife hinting about something along those lines when she met Dorian.

So Henry's wife leaving him didn't really seem like a surprise to me. But I'm almost sure that Henry never really pined for her. Maybe he just wanted more attention from his wife because he was so used to it from others. (hide spoiler)]

[Anirudh]

@Shin,

(view spoiler)[ I agree. He is not a risk taker. He mocks the society but follows all its customs. He is married, he dresses well and attends balls and such. He only talks about doing things but he never does. The only thing we know about him is what he says. Those could be just boasts to impress Dorian.

His wife probably had enough and left. She knew of Dorian and how Henry adored him. That much is evident from their initial encounter. And Henry does not seem too concerned about her either. In fact he does not care for anyone. Neither Basil nor Dorian. He likes to be adored but does not do anything to save Dorian.

What do you think about Dorian and how he blames others for his behaviour? (hide spoiler)]

[Ahtims]

(view spoiler)[
Dorian is the quintessential cry baby. Sometimes I feel/felt like smacking him. Perhaps he was so taken in by his beauty that he considered himself above others, and blamed others for all his shortfalls. He never did take up responsibility for any act of his. Even if he did for a short moment, he either conveniently forgot or rationalized his actions. I really thought that he was on the mend for perhaps a couple of penultimate pages, but was rudely proven wrong by the way he killed Basil. (hide spoiler)]

[Anirudh]

@Psmith, (view spoiler)[ Yes he was definitely a cry baby. As with many good looking people he was fascinated by his own looks and cried that the portrait won't age. He later blamed the girl for breaking his heart and then later blamed Henry for corrupting him. He never likes taking responsibility. (hide spoiler)]

[Shinjini]

About Dorian, (view spoiler)[ I thought he was a pathetic character! I had zero expectation from the guy who was so enamoured by his own beauty that he kept staring at his portrait whenever he could. Dorian was probably in love with himself. He always rationalized his actions and never once realised what kind of repercussions his actions had. Stupidity of that kind is the most dangerous.

He never even imagines that he could be in the wrong. He comes up with a reason for every single idiocy that he was capable of. Gah! I hated Dorian so much!

I love this book because even though I hated most of the characters, I couldn't help loving the story. I wish Oscar Wilde could have given us some more stories like this one. (hide spoiler)]

[Ahtims]

(view spoiler)[
Dorian seems the prototype of narcissistic personality. (hide spoiler)]

[Purvika]

Anirudh wrote: "@Purvika, finished reading?"

Naah. ...was busy playing :P

will finish in an hour or so !. Will reply all the spoilers then :)

[Anirudh]

@Shin, (view spoiler)[He was probably unaware of his looks until Basil and Henry mentioned to him how important it was. After that he became a despicable character. Always obsessed with himself. He does everything he wants but does not want to admit it. Quite a shallow nature. Wilde had said that all 3 characters represent him.

yes exactly. It's always someone else's fault never his. He even harms others to protect himself. He liked staring at his portrait as it became vile and more viel

Have you read other works by him?? (hide spoiler)]

@Smitha, (view spoiler)[ He is a complete narcissist but does not like to admit it. I guess all that praise from Basil and Henry corrupt him regarding his superiority over others. (hide spoiler)]

@Purvika, playing?

Okay :)

[Shinjini]

Anirudh, (view spoiler)[ I believe he was quite innocent before Henry came into his life. Even with Basil, he was a normal human being. Basil even something to the effect that he saw a friend in Dorian. Sadly, with Henry's influence and his taunts, Dorian set out to prove himself and that led to his downfall. Yes, I read that part where Wilde mentioned that all three characters represented a part of him. But he also said that Lord Henry is the least bit like him, as far as I can remember.

I have a complete stories book by Oscar Wilde that has all his works. He didn't write much. :( (hide spoiler)]

Smitha, (view spoiler)[ Absolutely! He is a case study in narcissistic behaviour. But he wouldn't have been like that had it not been for Henry, would he? Henry was the one who put things into his head and Dorian was weak and foolish enough to believe him. (hide spoiler)]

[Anirudh]

@Shin, (view spoiler)[ Yes. That's why Basil does not like Dorian meeting Henry. I think he knew Henry's true nature and was sure he would corrupt Dorian. And Dorian like the fool that he is, changes himself to impress Henry leading to his downfall

He died young I think. I have a few more stories in my book. Reading it now.
(hide spoiler)]

[Shinjini]

(view spoiler)[ Absolutely! Basil knew Henry and knew what he was capable to do to impressionable minds. But Dorian was too naive to understand that. I won't let it slide because he was young. Many young people are mature enough to understand which company is good and which isn't. Dorian liked Henry. He was unlike anyone else Dorian had ever met and he started to idolise him for the same reason. He could easily have cut off all contact from Henry, but he chose not to.

Wilde was forced into hiding and he had to spend his last few days in abject poverty. This brings me to another story but is irrelevant to the book so I will not mention it here. (hide spoiler)]

[IShita]

(view spoiler)[ I agree, it only got to his head when they started praising him profusely but I think, for some reason, he started taking it even more seriously only after Henry complimented him. Yoou might call his conduct a little more modest(?) before that. I mean. surely it wasn't the first time Basil praised his beauty in front of him! I think he got attracted to Henry the first time itself when he saw him if not 'fell for him' really; maybe that was why he'd always taken his opinions so seriously and tried continuously to impress him and to do what was agreeable according to him. But I still don't agree that Henry was attracted to him. The theory that leads us to believe he was homosexual makes sense. It might as well be true but what Henry felt for DG, I suppose, was nothing more than infatuation.

Dorian was atrocious. He was the most implausible character of a man but what I hate him the most for is for the way he treated Basil and even more for what he did to him. I mean, how could he be so blinded by Henry that he couldn't have cared less about Basil? I can't say I really liked Basil but if anyone, he was the one with my condolences.

His wife might have left him coz she has had enough of him and also she might have found someone who gave a rat's ass about her. Open marriage or not. Henry wasn't an easy person to live with and I would salute her if I could for bearing with him for as long as she did!

And again. Sibyl was a complete idiot! (hide spoiler)]

[Anirudh]

(view spoiler)[ And he continued to do so for a long time. Even when he grew older he did not try to change his ways. Basil poor fellow paid the price for it. If he was more firmer with Henry or of Dorian was of more stronger mind this would not have happened.

He was a controversial author. That much I know. (hide spoiler)]

[IShita]

(view spoiler)[ If I remember correctly, wasn't he even imprisoned because of his homosexuality? (hide spoiler)]

[Anirudh]

I think there were charges against him. Not sure.

[Shinjini]

Ishita, (view spoiler)[ I wouldn't say Dorian was modest. He was more... oblivious. Modesty just did not suit the guy. Attraction leads to infatuation, doesn't it? So technically, Henry did have some feeling for Dorian. It wasn't love, that's certain. But it wasn't just friendship either.

I wasn't very fond of Basil either. But he was the one I felt the most pity for. Getting murdered by the one you love is pretty horrible an end. Even Sybil annoyed me at times but Basil was the one I felt the worst for. He didn't deserve an end like that. I believed that his and Sybil's were the only loves that were real.

I was so glad to see that Henry's wife had left him. Best news ever! How she put up with the blatant sexism for so many years is beyond me! Women were used to it as sexism was everywhere but Henry was a really hypocritical human being and living with such a person needed a lot of patience.

Sybil was naive and too in love. Love makes one do silly things, doesn't it? (hide spoiler)]

[Shinjini]

Ishita wrote: "[spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[ He was. And the man he was in love with testified against him in court. Reminds you of Basil, doesn't it? (hide spoiler)]

[Anirudh]

@Ishita, Shin (view spoiler)[ Henry certainly was attracted to Dorian. He went out of his way to be acquainted with him, despite Basil asking him not to. Then he continued to influence him. It's certainly not love as Henry loves no one but himself. Perhaps he admired being seen with such awe by Dorian.

The only character I sympathise is with Basil, because he was the only one who had no control over what happened to him. Everyone else including Sibyl chose to act but Basil was a victim.

I think at that time there was no such thing as sexism and every woman had to put up with it. It is not surprising that she did. She probably found someone who actually cared.

Sybil was an idiot. Being a working class girl I am not sure how she ended up with high society temperament of love. It was way too foolish of her. (hide spoiler)]

[Purvika]

I finished

[Anirudh]

Purvika wrote: "I finished"

Stayed up late to finish it? :)

[Purvika]

Anirudh wrote: "Purvika wrote: "I finished"

Stayed up late to finish it? :)"

Yes !!! It took too long enough and had dozed several time in between.

[Purvika]

Reply to post 116 @Anirudh (view spoiler)[ That discussion also does not specify whether he was really joking with Basil or not. However sometime in jokes a person actually share more truth compared to serious talks. Also, since there is no light shed on how he actually lived it depends upon reader to take his actions as per their beliefs. But, yeah during the end he did ask Dorian about his secret of beauty and was baffled that even though Dorian was very infamous still his beauty wasn't marred compared to his. He did say that they both are same. If he think they both are same then we cannot say that he never did a bad deed, or was always just talks.

However, I do agree with shinjini's view of his homosexuality, along with my own views about his misgivings. He cannot been joking all the time and when during his old age he was distraught with his marred look and whined about Dorian's beauty.

As you say he is all talks, and you ask has he indulged himself with many actress ? But can you be sure that he hasn't? There is no proof of his innocence other than what Basil says during that conversation that he thinks that Henry only says and it is all pose. However, we cannot account it as proof as Henry himself rejects this thought of Basil in very next line stating, “Being natural is simply a pose, and the most irritating pose I know,” . Again this quote can be interpreted in many ways. It solely depends on the reader. I, don't think a person can be so vile without actual experience.

Also, leaving his wife and breaking social customs. Just because be doesn't leave his wife doesn't mean he is faithful to her. He himself had said that they both account tales about their whereabouts and with a serious face. Surely he wouldn't joke to basil about his wife's cheating when he mention that she never get confused with her date and she is better than him in this. If, he is joking about it, even then it shows his lack of character, such that, he is capable of tarnishing his wife's character in front of his friend just for the sake of mere joke. (hide spoiler)]

[Purvika]

Will reply to other posts in some time... am hungry now :/

[Anirudh]

@Purvika, (view spoiler)[ I suppose you have a point :) I guess it is left to reader interpretation.
They are not really the same. Henry merely manipulated Dorian to be just like him or what he claims to be him. Dorian, in his foolish attempt to impress Henry, kept on doing things.

Yes I think so too. That is one of the reasons the book became so controversial. It was indeed more than just friendship

No I cannot but observing his nature and his interactions it is possible that he is all talk. What I've read about the book, different reviews etc suggests the same that he is not all what he claims to be.

What I mean is, if it was Dorian in his position he would have at once said something shocking about marriage and suggested that Dorian should leave her. That's my point. All his shocking opinions are for others. He suggests to Dorian to leave the actress but he himself never leaves his wife even if he cares nothing for her. In the end it's his wife that left not him. (hide spoiler)]

[Anirudh]

After reading this book how many of you plan to read more books by Wilde?

[IShita]

Sorry I can't see spoilers on phone, I'll reply to them later :)
I plan to read the Importance of Being Earnest soon.

[Ahtims]

Ishita, lol.
Understood. ...After 5 repeats

[IShita]

I needed to make sure I was heard so no one felt bad about it XD

[Anirudh]

Itni sorry bolne ki kya zarurath thi :-P

[IShita]

I'm very courteous, don't y'know! :P

[IShita]

Shin, (view spoiler)[ well, technically yes but still. IDK what it was but I still don't feel attraction or infatuation or anything along that line is essentially the word for it. And I don't think it was concern either. I still feel he just wanted him to pay attention to him and idolize him to satisfy his vanity.

About Basil- true that! But I can't keep looking at it as poetic- very Shakespearean! And that provides it with a kind of literal beauty though sad. But I'm not denying it was a pity and I do pity him. Sibyl was still an idiot and I do not feel pity for her even though she might have been treated wrong. And because I am woman I am outraged at her actions so anyone who plays the woman card- sorry, I agree it was wrong but what she did was stupid.

Henry epitomized hypocrisy! What irked me the most about him was how easy it was for him to go back on his words. Here he was living with his wife and soon as he's out in some gathering he goes about talking down on it. And whatnots! And I am someone who cannot bear with hypocrisy, be it be who. And his sexism made me want to stab him. Specially when he calls women a "decorative sex"-
"My dear boy, no woman is a genius. Women are a decorative sex. They never have anything to say, but they say it charmingly. Women represent the triumph of matter over mind, just as men represent the triumph of mind over morals."
If only he was in front of me! How his wife managed to live through those years is beyond me! (hide spoiler)]

[IShita]

Shinjini wrote: "Ishita wrote: "[spoilers removed]"

[spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[ Bingo! I remember reading that somewhere. Poor Wilde! Huh, kind of, yes. (hide spoiler)]

[IShita]

Anirudh, (view spoiler)[ Well, Henry was a bastard (excuse the language)! But if you ask me, I think Henry went out of his ways because it was something he was prohibited from. He knew Basil was protective of Dorian and he wasn't gonna let this be easy for him. So being the arrogant SOAB that he is, he did all that he did.
Maybe I am a bit too adamant against admitting it was attraction on the side of Henry, that's why I keep.. justifying(?).

That was very well put. I agree.

Now that was a little sexist! So what if she was a working class girl? Wasn't it foolish of Dorian too to have fallen for a "working class" girl in an era where he knew these social differences don't go down well? And she was an actress who played for anyone who came to see her. The clergy and the upper class in that era enjoyed going to such gatherings and also going up to the greenrooms of the actors to 'congratulate' them. That's how they met. Simple! (hide spoiler)]

[Purvika]

OMG. ..Ishita.(view spoiler)[ ...... you took words out of my mouth :')

How sweetly you have written words about Henry ... :').. especially first few lines... (hide spoiler)]