January Classics Read - The Picture of Dorian Gray

[Shinjini]

People still reading, please do not read my spoiler. It will ruin the story for you. :P

[Anirudh]

Ishita wrote: "Anirudh wrote: "Shinjini wrote: "Anirudh wrote: "I don't think I like the actress character. Quite annoying."

Sybil is annoying but Gray isn't? :O"

Gray is also annoying :D So far I like Henry. W..."

Should I be worried? :P

[IShita]

(view spoiler)[
On the contrary, I found Henry interesting because of that very fact. is sexism was very typical of the era when you look at it. Yes the book deals with an 'unconventional', 'unorthodox' issue but it deals with it in a very conventional, orthodox society. And being as it were the people didn't really think very differently than Henry the only difference being- he wasn't a hypocrite or secretive about it. THAT is also why he was the best placed (as a character in the book) where he was.

As for Basil- his fate was sad but also kind of poetic, don't you think? To be killed by the one you love! Very Shakespearean!

It wasn't her whining that annoyed me. It was.. IDK, her very public display of it! She always pretended to be empowered by her affections and I think, somewhere, that was a reason why she was so open to talk about it. And I think when you have the guts to PDA in such a closed society why don't face it when people talk down on you? True what strengthens you only makes you weak and scared but if it gives you even a little amount of courage, doesn't that count for something? Why give up without even trying?

Henry showed homosexuality? When did that happen? :O
(hide spoiler)]

[IShita]

@Purvi- LOL, he seems to have that effect on you :P

@Anirudh- it's a compliment really if a little twisted :P

[Purvika]

@Ishita...seem...so...now will I be sitting and crying. .. as well :'( :P

[IShita]

Purvi- that is one thing I can guarantee he won't be able to do :P

[Purvika]

Thank God... I was biting my already bitten nails. :P

@Shiny.... don't worry. ..I won't read em

[IShita]

but he might make you pull your hair :P

[Shinjini]

Ishita, (view spoiler)[ I see your point about the sexism being rampant at the time but Henry has made comments that have infuriated me. I do not like manipulating people and it annoys me when I encounter such characters in any story.

Poetic maybe, but when it's a life at stake, poetry really doesn't help. :P

Sybil was in love. She really was. She was devoted to Gray and in such a position you cannot hold it against her if she does want to tell people that she has found someone who makes her happy. Many people do that. And here, I don't think she was weak. She was just not prepared to handle the consequences. I resent people calling others who have committed suicide weak. In my opinion, they aren't weak. At the heat of the moment, they just didn't know what to do. Committing suicide takes a brand of strength that others probably wouldn't understand. (I don't either, by the way. It is just my opinion)

I felt that Henry was attracted to Dorian and that was the main reason why he wanted DG to love him. Worship him. I didn't think that was meant in a brotherly way. (hide spoiler)]

Purvika, Why do you plan to cry?

[Purvika]

@Shinchan I cry for no apparent reason :P

@Ishita. ..then I will make sure to tie my hair while reading :P

@Abhay... (view spoiler)[ (view spoiler)[(view spoiler)[ Pagal (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

[IShita]

Shin (view spoiler)[ Yes, I agree he was very offensive and I did, as a woman, take offense at every moment that you have in mind right now but I don't think I really dislike him for that. In fact, I rather found him compelling(?) for that. And no offense but, I think, your dislike for him might be a little prejudiced for the fact that you tend to feel that way about manipulative people.

LOL! Well, in that case- what can I say? Karma is a bitch but life is ironic! It might not always be the good kind of irony :P

But that is exactly my point. She was in love but she never fought for it! Her openness about it all led me to believe she was a strong character, more so a woman! She knew the society she lived in and she still dared not only to love but to speak out about it! It's just the fact that even though she knew it wasn't gonna be easy for her (and she did know for she always talked about what was acceptable in the society and what wasn't), she never fought for it.
As for people who commit suicide- I never said they were weak. Hell, I know some real life incidences and I couldn't have respected them more for what they've endured before they took that step! I just think it is just reckless of them. And anyway, I'd rather not comment on that. Everyone has their own problems and their own reasons.

I'd say Henry was vain. And he obviously thought very highly of himself. Also, I think he tended to 'leave an impression on people' if not 'leave them impressed'. And he was very much aware of the fact (not that it was really concealed by people either). That plus his vanity led him to become haughty which could not stand it when someone felt any different. Moreover, I think, being as it was, DG was an easy target from the start. He was immature and, as I said earlier, at very gullible age. It was also evident from the very minute that they started talking that he was awe-struck with him (which wasn't very unnatural, if you ask me!) and when Henry realized that, he took advantage of it and deliberately started talking like that when around or with him. So yes, he did want him to worship him but he wants everyone to! I don't see how that could be love. Not even brotherly. If anything, he just wanted to satisfy his need for praise. (hide spoiler)]

[Purvika]

Please don't write so big a spoiler...It makes me wanna read all of them :'(

[Anirudh]

I quite like some of the quotes. Story wise there isn't much but the writing is brilliant.

[IShita]

Anirudh wrote: "I quite like some of the quotes. Story wise there isn't much but the writing is brilliant."

Some parts of the story seem a little cliched, don't they?

[Anirudh]

Ishita wrote: "Anirudh wrote: "I quite like some of the quotes. Story wise there isn't much but the writing is brilliant."

Some parts of the story seem a little cliched, don't they?"

I don't think they were a cliche when Wilde wrote it. I am yet to be bored.

[Ahtims]

Shinjini wrote: "Smitha, Somewhere while I was reading the book, I felt that Dorian

Shinjini, very well put.
Seeing in this light, itbis all plausible.

[Ahtims]

Quotes were good. Haven't encountered any book with these many quotes.
(view spoiler)[
Dorian might have been foolish and vain in his earlier years, but as he grew older his wickedness increased. I wonder how someone else can influence an older person to that extent? Perhaps his rational mind too got stunted along with hos non ageing.
I still find Sybil weak and affected, comparing with Jane Austen's heroines who arevof the same era, but who handle their heart breaks with decorum. Perhaps social background influences the way of behaviour) (hide spoiler)]

[Ahtims]

@Anirudh, too early to compare yourself with Henry. Decide after finishing the book. :P

[Anirudh]

I said only few views are similar :P

Right now I am getting the feeling that Lord Henry deliberately toys with the minds of others around him. A subtle touch but intentional none the less.

[Shinjini]

Smitha, interesting you mentioned that(view spoiler)[ I hadn't read a single Jane Austen book when I read DG so I thought all female characters were somewhat weak and fragile at that time. When I read Pride and Prejudice, I was happy to have been proved wrong. Sybil was around the same era, yes, but I also think that Elizabeth in P&P was well-educated and had a prominent father-figure who gave her a lot of support and strength. Sybil didn't seem to have that. Her family consisted of her mother and her brother, both of whom were always trying to protect her. That might have been the reason why she could never cultivate a stronger side of her own. Social background and familial relationships do have a bearing on a person's personality. Think of it this way, you and I, and forgive me for being presumptious, we come from families with nurturing environments, with loving parents. Had we come from abusive backgrounds, maybe we wouldn't have turned out this way. Very few people are able to fight against the grain and get out of the expectations society have burdened them with, right?

Dorian was a very impressionable young man. He has always been complimented for his looks and women (and men) fell over themselves to get acquainted with him. When Henry came around, he was different. He didn't pine for Dorian. He was commanding and he forced Dorian to pay attention to him. That is a huge thing for someone who has never been commanded into anything. People have always pitied him for his mother's fate and loved him for his looks. Here was a man who didn't have time for either so maybe Dorian thought he should follow him and wait on him, day in and out because he was so different than all the others. Maybe he even meant to impress Henry by being wicked as he completely dismissed all possibilities of Dorian ever doing an evil thing, considering he was so beautiful and innocent-looking. (hide spoiler)]

[Shinjini]

Sorry again for the long posts. When I'm into discussing a book, I forget about everything else! :P

[Ahtims]

Shinjini, though I abhor writing huge posts (inherent laziness ), I relish reading them. :-)

[Ahtims]

Shinjini wrote: "Smitha, interesting P..."

@Shinjini, yes. Once again, well stated.

[Anirudh]

I should try to finish this book soon :/

[Ahtims]

Why?

[Purvika]

I cannot relate to any of the characters...They seem too superficial. (view spoiler)[ Henry is the most annoying. The things he say are very atrocious. I didn't like the way he painted women in two category. Their are other books as well, of same era, where feminine strength and wisdom is praised. He seem too manipulative. He is making Gray his guinea pig. Oh and Gray. It is so frustrating to see someone who cannot get past by his "beauty".

I am reserving my thought on Sybil and Basil for later. (hide spoiler)]

[Anirudh]

So I can read all the spoiler tag posts. :)

[Anirudh]

An unexpected turn!! Lord Henry's casual disregard for human life is surprising. Or maybe not.

[Ahtims]

Where have you reached?

[Anirudh]

Anyone who has not finished the book don't read this

(view spoiler)[ His acting crush just died. and Henry told him to forget her as a dream and focus on enjoying :P (hide spoiler)]

[Anirudh]

@Shinjini, I will read your essays once I finish reading then reply :)

[Ahtims]

Shinjini's essays are well-written. I wonder whether she's a literature student.
Oh.. that part.

[IShita]

(view spoiler)[ that part about dominating the other? I meant Henry was dominating and vain and he wanted Dorian, like he does everyone else, to idolize him.

I still don't agree with Shin. Coming from a protective environment, true- it does make you dependent BUT- it can also make you very independent and strong. It is, over all, I suppose, a matter of how the person being protected looks at it. I tell you, I come from a family where my father would put the world down under my feet if he could just so he could protect me and inspite of that I like to think of myself as a very independent, strong woman. You always have a choice- you could either succumb to it or you could grow under it. So no, I don't agree that the fact that she'd always been sheltered by her family justifies why she was weak. You tell me- you're a sheltered kid, do you think you're weak?
And talk about Jane Austen, well that's the one thing I like about her books. Maybe it is also why I enjoy her books- she refuses to submit to the stereotypes and always makes her female characters strong overcoming the general orthodoxy of the era. And one can't say Elizabeth was strong only because she always had her father's support or the influence of a father figure in her life. She was strong minded and most of the times she just declared her decisions in front of him. And his support only went as far as the 'freedom of opinion and speech' that he privileged his daughters with. Why do you think her sisters weren't half as strong as her? Why, they had the same father who supported and influenced them the same way! Also, sometime around that era, Emma lived too. And she was, by far, THE most strong woman character I've come across. She had a father figure in her life too. True her father wasn't much of an influence when her life decisions were concerned but she still had him to look up to. Why then, was she stronger even than the men, authoritative men, in the book?

I don't think Henry ever dismissed any of these possibilities. In fact, come to think of it, he might have been the only person who ever truly saw his potential and only said those things in order to provoke him. Being the sadist that he was, he derived some sort of perverted pleasure watching him act the way he had started (-which was exactly what he had expected). He knew how much he was capable of, and how much he really did influence Dorian and he just went on exploiting it. DG gave him all of that at the expense of his own without even realizing what Henry was doing to him. Henry came into his life at a time when he was very vulnerable- mentally. And I don't think he ever grew out of it. Maybe because ever since then, Henry had been a constant influence in disguise of a friend. Or more psychologically because it is usually very hard, and takes a real strong person, to ever grow out of idolizing (and idolizing was what it was!) someone you started worshiping at that age. (hide spoiler)]

[Anirudh]

PSmith wrote: "52% through

A few doubts prevail:
1. Does this belong to the genre magical realism?
2. Is there a strong element of homosexuality? implied, if not overt? the way Basil and Dorian, as well as Doria..."

(view spoiler)[1. I think this would in a way be considered magical realism.

2. Yes there is. It is not revealed but perhaps Basil did indeed like Dorian and Dorian did indeed like Henry. (hide spoiler)]

[Anirudh]

@Shinjini, Ishita, Smitha
(view spoiler)[ I knew that at least one girl would be mad at Henry for saying stuff about women :D

Ishita, Lord Henry is indeed a Hypocrite. He casually tosses poisonous ideas to Dorian and anyone who is listening about how self indulgence is the true way of life. But he himself never actually commits any sins. He is married, attends all the meetings his social status requires. Despite criticising
society, its rules, he never really breaks them. It is Dorian who under the influence of Henry decides to do everything he wishes to do irrespective of consequences. Henry is a character who likes to show off. He likes having listeners who awe in his presence. He likes to shock them. But in fact he does not realise the true effects his words have on Dorian. He's the one who dares others to jump off a clip while he stands back and does nothing.

Penelope was stupid. :D She was vain and had a foolish notion of love, no doubt because of all the plays that she does. And cannot seem to tell the difference between love and temporary affection. It was foolish of her to end her life over a man whom she knew for less than a month.

There are homosexual undertones or perhaps it is just how they talked. Nothing can be said for certain but I think both basil and henry admired Dorian for his looks and nature. (hide spoiler)]

[Ahtims]

Yes, (view spoiler)[
Henry seems quite the show-off
And I didnot expect anything less about the way Henry speaks about women. I have seen that most showoff men like further showing off by denigrating women :P (hide spoiler)]

[Anirudh]

PSmith wrote: "Yes,
Henry seems quite the show-off
And I didnot expect anything less about the way Henry speaks about women. I have seen that most showoff men like further showing off by denigrating women :P"

He is definitely a show off but he is subtle. He knows Dorian takes his every word seriously but does nothing to prevent Dorian from doing bad things

It's his opinion that made Dorian reject Penelope

[Anirudh]

Everybody ran away as soon as I finished reading :/

[Purvika]

50% down and...now I pity both Gray and Henry

[Anirudh]

Purvika wrote: "50% down and...now I pity both Gray and Henry"

You pity Henry? Why?

[Purvika]

He is finding fault in everything that shows how much he is unsatisfied with his own life. The way he keep judging others shows how he is trying to prove how he is far beyond than everyone else...

[Anirudh]

@Purvika, (view spoiler)[ I don't think he finds faults because he is unhappy with his life. He just enjoys having such ideas and making shocking statements, it gives him a sense of superiority. The only one I pity in this novel is Basil (hide spoiler)]

[Shinjini]

Anirudh wrote: "Everybody ran away as soon as I finished reading :/"

Haha! :P

I'm here. Just a little busy.

[Purvika]

@Anirudh (view spoiler)[ That is the way a human mind works..only those who are unsatisfied with their lives torment others. He want to control everyone's life around him just to prove himself that he is superior, of all. I think Basil did show his strength by confessing and walking out of Gray's house.

As far as Henry is concerned.... The way he made that comment to about women buy bonnets at the expense of someone else husband tells us a great deal about him. 1. He himself had indulged in such act 2. He knows his wife does that as well. Because in start he had stated that they don't ask about each others whereabouts .. proves what their marriage life consist of...and to fill that empty Ness he had perceived a different notion about women and life regardless of anyone's else. (hide spoiler)]

[IShita]

(view spoiler)[ Anirudh, but that's my point exactly, isn't it? He's a show off and he wants people to think of him as higher than anybody else! But the only thing that I disagree with you on is that he did realize how much of an impression he left on people if not necessarily 'effect' them. More so with DG. And it was indeed stupid of DG to never so much as even try to conceal that. And Henry just took advantage of it.

No, I don't think it was just the way that they talked in that era. Homosexuality is constantly visible throughout the story even if an undertone. And Henry wasn't the kind who'd admire anyone else except for himself. True he had a good eye for beauty and maybe that is why he must've appreciated DG's looks but there was nothing on the lines of admiration. I don't think so, no.

Purvi, you mean you feel sad for him? I mean the sorry wala sad? But I agree with Anirudh. He was obnoxious! (hide spoiler)]

[Shinjini]

PSmith wrote: "Shinjini's essays are well-written. I wonder whether she's a literature student.
Oh.. that part."

Oh this totally made my day, Smitha! :D

I'm not a literature student. I'm actually a student of biological sciences. Zoology to be more specific.

But thank you so much for the compliment. :D

I like discussing books and it was a lot of fun with you. I guess that's why my essays were better than I am capable of otherwise. It's all in the company, you see. :P

[Shinjini]

Anirudh and Purvika, I will reply to your spoilers tomorrow. Just really tired today. Sorry. :(

[Purvika]

@Ishita no I don't feel sad for him. (view spoiler)[This pity is more on the scale of disgust. Playing with others life and treating others as just pawns. What I meant by pity is before I felt a rage by how he talked about human life, relationships and specially women. The feminist in me cursed him. But then the Psychological me understood that he himself is so deprived of the real relationships that he have no regards for others. (hide spoiler)]

[Ahtims]

Shinjini wrote: "PSmith wrote: "Shinjini's essays are well-written. I wonder whether she's a literature student.
Oh.. that part."

Oh this totally made my day, Smitha! :D

I'm not a literature student. I'm 7actually..."
Great. I got undeserved (yet much appreciated ) credit. :P :P

[IShita]

Shinjini wrote: "Anirudh and Purvika, I will reply to your spoilers tomorrow. Just really tired today. Sorry. :("

And I'm to invisible, right? -_-