The History Book Club discussion
This topic is about
The Splendid and the Vile
BUDDY-READS
>
ARCHIVE - BUDDY READ - THE SPLENDID AND THE VILE: A SAGA OF CHURCHILL, FAMILY, AND DEFIANCE DURING THE BLITZ - DISCUSSION THREAD (No Spoilers, please)
Mod
READERS GUIDE
1. The book’s title comes from a line in John Colville’s diary about the peculiar beauty of watching bombs fall over his home city: “Never was there such a contrast of natural splendor and human vileness.” How do you think a tragedy like this could be considered beautiful? Why do you think Larson chose this title?
2. The Splendid and the Vile covers Winston Churchill’s first year in office. What are the benefits of focusing on this truncated time period?
3. Larson draws on many sources to provide a vivid picture of Churchill’s home and family life in his first year as prime minister. What struck you most about his family dynamic? Considering how powerful he was at the time, was his relationship with his family what you would have expected it to be? Why or why not?
4. Churchill’s most trusted advisers spent many long days and nights with the prime minister, so much so that they became like members of his family. Why do you think Churchill had such close relationships with his political advisers? What do you see as being the key advantages and disadvantages of running a government office in this way? Which of Churchill’s political relationships was the most interesting to you?
5. Larson provides various perspectives in the book, from diaries by Mary Churchill and Mass-Observation participants to the inner workings of both Churchill’s and Hitler’s cabinets. How did these different perspectives enhance your understanding of life in 1940 and 1941?
6. Reading about how war was waged and discussed by the public in 1940, do you see any similarities to how we talk about warfare today?
7. How did you feel reading about the raids? How would your daily life and your priorities change if your country were experiencing similar attacks with such frequency?
8. The book includes anecdotes about a vast array of characters around Churchill, such as his daughter-in-law Pamela, his children Randolph and Mary, and his wife, Clementine. What are the benefits of including various stories about the people related to Churchill—in a book discussing his first year in office? Which of these characters did you find to be the most interesting? The most surprising?
9. Mary Churchill recounts the evening when the Café de Paris—where she and her friends had planned to go dancing—was bombed. After the initial shock, her group decides that the dead would have wanted them to continue their evening of gaiety and dancing elsewhere, and they move on to another location. What did you think about this choice? What do you think you would have done in their situation?
10. Discuss Mary Churchill’s portrayal in the book. Do you feel she grows and matures throughout this tumultuous year? Why or why not?
11. What was the most surprising thing you learned about Churchill? Why did it surprise you?
12. While England rationed food, gasoline, and other supplies during the war, Churchill and his cabinet received extra provisions. What did you think about this policy? Do you think government officials are justified in implementing such measures during a time of crisis? Why or why not?
13. Were there any decisions Churchill made over the course of his first year as prime minister that you disagreed with? If so, which? Which of his decisions were you most impressed with?
14. Do you think there has been another leader as universally beloved in their day as Churchill was in his? If so, who? If not, why not?
Mod
On November 27, 1942, during World War II, the Vichy French navy scuttled its ships and submarines in Toulon to keep them out of the hands of German troops. When Hitler marched into Vichy France his hopes of grabbing the French warships at Toulon were defeated by their crews who scuttled them.
Link: https://youtu.be/XuGATp8_t80
Source: Youtube, British Movietone News
Mod
As the situation worsens with the fall of France, the Nazis are poised to take the massive French fleet which would have given them the edge over Britain's authority over the seas. Churchill was left with the decision to either believe in the French promises, that they would never hand over their fleet, or make the dark decision of destroying it.
Link to video: https://youtu.be/Nyku1lSRiFU
Source: Youtube
Considering the collaborationist government that came to power in France, I am not sure that Churchill could have made any other decision.
message 156:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Jul 06, 2020 01:10AM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
But in the video - the British naval personnel who were interviewed to this day have a hard time with the decision even though that is what ended up happening and why.
Having said the above: These actions showed FDR that Britain had the guts to defend itself and the Americans sent the destroyers and supplies that Britain needed.
Mod
Scuttling is the deliberate sinking of a ship by allowing water to flow into the hull.
This can be achieved in several ways—seacocks or hatches can be opened to the sea, or holes may be ripped into the hull with brute force or with explosives.
Scuttling may be performed to dispose of an abandoned, old, or captured vessel; to prevent the vessel from becoming a navigation hazard; as an act of self-destruction to prevent the ship from being captured by an enemy force (or, in the case of a vessel engaged in illegal activities, by the authorities); as a blockship to restrict navigation through a channel or within a harbor; to provide an artificial reef for divers and marine life; or to alter the flow of rivers.
Remainder of article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scuttling
Source: Wikipedia
Mod
Today we look at the facts and thinking behind the attack on Mers-el-Kebir, with my own take on roles a responsibilities.
Link to video: https://youtu.be/1aoi33VAAO4
Source: Youtube
message 159:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Jul 06, 2020 02:48AM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
CHAPTER 16
The Red Warning
"IN LONDON ON MONDAY, JUNE 24, Churchill’s War Cabinet met three times, once in the morning and twice that night, the last meeting beginning at ten-thirty P.M. Most of the time was spent discussing what Foreign Undersecretary Cadogan called “the awful problem of the French fleet.”
Earlier that day, the Times of London had revealed the terms of the French armistice, which Germany had not yet formally disclosed. German forces would occupy the northern and western tiers of France; the rest of the country would be administered by a nominally free government based in Vichy, about two hundred miles south of Paris.
It was Article 8 that Churchill read most intently: “The German Government solemnly declare that they have no intention of using for their own purposes during the war the French Fleet stationed in ports under German control except those units necessary for coast surveillance and minesweeping.”
It also called for all French ships operating outside French waters to return to France, unless they were needed to protect French colonial holdings.
The clause as later published by Germany included this sentence: “The German Government further solemnly and expressly declare that they do not intend to claim the French Fleet on the conclusion of peace.”
Source: Larson, Erik. The Splendid and the Vile (p. 104). Crown. Kindle Edition.
Discussion Topics and Questions:
1. Please watch the videos that have been previously added and then discuss the pros and cons of the very difficult decision that Churchill had to make and why. How would you view the decision from the French perspective versus the British one and did Churchill and the men intercepting the communications have a third view of the circumstances?
2. How disastrous would it have been for the Germans to have taken over the French fleet? Would that have meant the end for England?
3. How did Churchill relax? Was he more attuned to his pets like Nelson to help him with "unconditional companionship"?
Churchill’s black cat, Nelson, lay also at the foot of the bed, in full cat sprawl, the portrait of peace and repose. Now and then Churchill gazed adoringly at the cat and murmured, “Cat, darling.”
Source: Larson, Erik. The Splendid and the Vile (p. 107). Crown. Kindle Edition.
message 160:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Jul 06, 2020 03:01AM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
CHAPTER 17
“Tofrek!”
"AS A REFUGE FROM THE pressures and distractions of weekdays in London, Chequers was proving a godsend to Churchill.
By now it had become his country command post, to which he summoned legions of guests—generals, ministers, foreign officials, family, staff—who were invited to dine, to sleep, or to “dine and sleep.”
He brought a private secretary (leaving others on duty in London), two typists, his valet, his chauffeur, two telephone operators, and, always, Inspector Thompson. Barbed wire surrounded the grounds; soldiers of the Coldstream Guard patrolled its hills and vales and boundaries; sentries guarded all access points and demanded passwords from everyone, including Churchill himself.
Every day, messengers delivered reports and minutes and the latest intelligence, all to be placed in his black box, or in his top-secret yellow box. He received eight daily and Sunday newspapers, and read them.
Although he took time out for meals, walks, baths, and his nap, he spent most of the day dictating minutes and discussing the war with his guests, much as he did at 10 Downing, but here with a crucial difference: The house fostered an easier and more candid exchange of ideas and opinions, encouraged by the simple fact that everyone had left their offices behind and by a wealth of novel opportunities for conversation—climbs up Beacon and Coombe Hills, walks in the rose garden, rounds of croquet, and hands of bezique, further leavened by free-flowing champagne, whiskey, and brandy.
The talk typically ranged well past midnight. At Chequers, visitors knew they could speak more freely than in London, and with absolute confidentiality.
After one weekend, Churchill’s new commander in chief of Home Forces, Alan Brooke, wrote to thank him for periodically inviting him to Chequers, and “giving me an opportunity of discussing the problems of the defense of this country with you, and of putting some of my difficulties before you.
These informal talks are of the very greatest help to me, & I do hope you realize how grateful I am to you for your kindness.”
Source: Larson, Erik. The Splendid and the Vile (p. 108). Crown. Kindle Edition.
Discussion Topics and Questions:
1. Why do you think Chequers provided the needed outlet for Churchill as well as his staff and direct reports?
2. What were your impressions of Randolph Churchill based upon Colville's accounts? How was Pamela Churchill received?
3. Did you find it odd that Churchill seemed to see marriage as just one of his many aphorisms?
4. What was Randolph's relationship to his parents? How was his relationship different with each parent? What surprised you about Randolph personally or about his marriage to Pamela?
5. Why was the sudden occupation of Guernsey, a British dependency in the Channel Islands off the coast of Normandy, less than two hundred air miles from Chequers by the Germans so unsettling?
Source: Larson, Erik. The Splendid and the Vile (p. 114). Crown. Kindle Edition.
Mod
Week Seven - July 6th - July 12th
Chapter 18: Resignation No. 1
Chapter 19: Force H
Chapter 20: Berlin
message 162:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Jul 06, 2020 03:14AM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
Chapter 18: Resignation No. 1
Beaverbrook wants to resign.
Chapter 19: Force H
Operation Catapult is underway. Somerville received his final orders at 4:26 A.M., on Tuesday, July 2. In the Mediterranean off Mers el-Kébir, Admiral Somerville at last gave the order to open fire. The time was 5:54 P.M., nearly a half hour past his deadline. the ships of Force H fired thirty-six salvos of shells, each fifteen inches in diameter and packed with high explosives, until the French guns went quiet. The House was delighted but Churchill cried.
Chapter 20: Berlin
Hitler wants Churchill out of the way and taps Hess to accomplish this. Hitler feels that no peace can be achieved with England unless Churchill is removed. Hitler tried to use the British attack on the French fleet as propaganda. Twenty German dive-bombers had attacked targets on the Isle of Portland, which juts into the channel off England’s south coast. They escaped without interception by the RAF—“a bad look-out for the future if this can be done with impunity in broad daylight,” Colville wrote.
Source: Larson, Erik. The Splendid and the Vile (p. 128). Crown. Kindle Edition.
message 163:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Jul 08, 2020 12:12AM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
CHAPTER 18
Resignation No. 1
"AS IF WAR AND INVASION were not enough to think about, that same day, Sunday, June 30, Churchill’s close friend and counselor and industrial miracle worker, Lord Beaverbrook, submitted his resignation.
The letter began with the happy reminder that in the seven weeks since Beaverbrook had become minister of aircraft production, the output of aircraft had increased at a near-inconceivable rate: The RAF now had at its disposal 1,040 aircraft ready for service, compared with 45 when he took over—though how he derived these numbers would soon become a matter of dispute.
He had done what he set out to do; it was time for him to go. His conflict with the Air Ministry had become so profound as to impede his ability to perform. “It is now imperative that the Ministry of Aircraft Production should pass into the keeping of a man in touch and sympathy with the Air Ministry and the Air Marshals,” he wrote.
He blamed himself, declaring he was not suited to working with Air Ministry officials. “I am certain that another man could take up the responsibilities with hope and expectation of that measure of support and sympathy sympathy which has been denied to me.”
He asked to be relieved of his duties as soon as his successor had been fully briefed on his ministry’s ongoing operations and projects. “I am convinced,” he wrote, “that my work is finished and my task is over.” John Colville guessed that Beaverbrook’s true motive was a wish to quit “at the peak of his success, before new difficulties arise.” Colville considered this an unworthy reason. “It is like trying to stop playing cards immediately after a run of luck,” he wrote in his diary.
Churchill, clearly annoyed, sent Beaverbrook his reply the following day, Monday, July 1.
Instead of addressing him as Max, or simply Beaverbrook, he began his letter with a frosty “Dear Minister of Aircraft Production.” “I have received your letter of June 30, and hasten to say that at a moment like this when an invasion is reported to be imminent there can be no question of any Ministerial resignations being accepted.
I require you, therefore, to dismiss this matter from your mind, and to continue the magnificent work you are doing on which to a large extent our safety depends.”
In the meantime, Churchill told him, “I am patiently studying how to meet your needs in respect of control of the over-lapping parts of your Department and that of the Air Ministry, and also to assuage the unfortunate differences which have arisen.”
A partly chastened Beaverbrook replied immediately. “I will certainly not neglect my duties here in the face of invasion. But it is imperative—and all the more so because of this threat of armed attack upon our shores—that the process of turning over this Ministry should take place as soon as possible.”
He again aired his frustrations: “I cannot get information which I require about supplies or equipment.
I cannot get permission to carry out operations essential to strengthening our reserves to the uttermost in readiness for the day of invasion.
“It is not possible for me to go on because a breach has taken place in the last five weeks through the pressure I have been compelled to put upon reluctant officers.” This breach, he wrote, “cannot be healed.”
But he no longer threatened immediate resignation.
Source: Larson, Erik. The Splendid and the Vile (pp. 115-116). Crown. Kindle Edition.
Discussion Topics and Questions:
1. Why did Beaverbrook want to resign? How did Churchill handle this personnel problem? Do you think he handled it well?
2. Odd practice, but Clementine felt that the only way to get Churchill's attention if she wanted to tell him something was to put it in writing. What were your thoughts about their marital relationship and did this seem right to you? What did this say about Churchill?
3. Beaverbrook had done an outstanding job. There were 45 aircraft available when he took over and now there were 1040. Beaverbrook seemed to acquiesce to Churchill. What were your thoughts as to why Beaverbrook pulled this stunt in the first place? Do you put much stock in Colville's hypothesis that Beaverbrook just wanted to quit at the pinnacle of his success. Why would someone do that during a difficult war? Didn't you just love the way Churchill addressed the letter to Beaverbrook (smile): Dear Minister of Aircraft Production - ? (lol) I bet Beaverbrook thought he was being summoned because of his letter (smile). What do you think?
message 164:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Jul 06, 2020 08:34AM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
20 Apr 1944 — Admiral Sir James Somerville, of the British Admiralty, led the attack on Japanese-held Sumatra on April 19th, when allied warships and planes pounded the Sabang and Lhonga airfields and a key harbor in Northern Sumatra. It was announced that this attack may well be the first blow in the battle to regain Singapore and Malaya. — Image by © Bettmann/Corbis
Like Admiral Ramsay, Somerville was on the retired list but was not recalled until September 1939. He helped Ramsay organize the Dunkirk evacuation in May 1940, before being given command of Force H, based on Gibraltar.
Although he was born in Weybridge, Surrey, on 17 July 1882, James Somerville could easily have been born in New Zealand as his father had spent some time there farming. He joined the Royal Navy as a Dartmouth cadet on 15 January 1897, and by 15 March 1904 was already a lieutenant. During the First World War, Somerville became the Navy’s leading radio specialist and served at Gallipoli, where he was awarded the DSO.
As a career officer, Somerville stayed in the service after the war, and on 31 December 1921 was promoted to captain and commanded HMS Benbow. With his radio experience, Somerville served as Director of the Admiralty’s Signal Department from 1925 to 1927, and as a naval instructor at the Imperial Defence College from 1929 to 1931. He was promoted to commodore in 1932 and to rear admiral on 12 October 1933. Somerville commanded the British Mediterranean Fleet destroyer flotillas from 1936 to 1938, and during the Spanish Civil War his ships were often in Spanish waters protecting British subjects. From 1938 to 1939, he served in the East Indies Station, but in 1939 it was thought that he had tuberculosis and he was forced to retire on medical grounds, although it later turned out to be a false diagnosis.
Somerville was recalled for special duties by the Admiralty later in September 1939 with the start of the First World War. For the first winter of war, he did important work on naval radar development and in May 1940 was sent to Dover where he served under Admiral Ramsay, helping to organize the evacuation of Dunkirk.
He gained his own command when he was appointed as a vice admiral to command the newly formed Force H, based at Gibraltar, flying his flag on the battlecruiser HMS Hood. Force H was unusual inasmuch as its Gibraltar base meant that it could operate in both the Atlantic and the Mediterranean, where it often helped provide a strong escort for convoys as far east as Malta, as the Mediterranean became increasingly divided, with Force H confined to the western half and the British Mediterranean Fleet to the eastern. Somerville was given this exacting command, which was officially a powerful naval squadron, but in reality a small fleet, when Force H was formed on 28 June 1940. The idea was to fill the vacuum left by the fall of France and the loss of the French fleet, with its initial role being to stop this strategic asset falling into Axis hands.
After Henri-Philippe Pétain signed an armistice with Germany on 22 June 1940, Winston Churchill gave Somerville the task of neutralizing the main element of the French fleet, at Mers-el-Kébir in North Africa, attacking and destroying it if all other options failed. Churchill wrote to him: ‘You are charged with one of the most disagreeable tasks that a British Admiral has ever been faced with, but we have complete confidence in you and rely on you to carry it out relentlessly.’
Remainder of article:
https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2016/12...
More:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_S...
http://www.hmshood.com/crew/biography...
http://www.admirals.org.uk/admirals/f...
http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/o...
http://www.admirals.org.uk/records/ad...
https://www.unithistories.com/units_i...
http://dreadnoughtproject.org/tfs/ind...
by James Somerville (no photo)
Winston Churchill, Archibald Wavell, and James Somerville in conference aboard the ship Queen Mary, May 1943 - Imperial War Museum
Sources: Weapons and Warfare, Wikipedia, Battle Cruiser Hood, Internet Archives, HMS Hood Association, Wayback Machine, World War II Unit Histories, Dreadnought Project, World War II database
I'm not sure if this is the right place to post, but I just saw that you were reading this as a Buddy Read. I just finished the book this morning and absolutely loved it (5 stars!). Thank you for all the meticulous research you did and the links you provide for additional information. I will definitely be following the discussion and wading through all the amazing links and photos!
Mod
message 167:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Jul 08, 2020 01:46AM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
CHAPTER 19
Force H
"THE NIGHT WAS EXCEPTIONALLY DARK, with almost no moon; a brisk wind shook the windows at 10 Downing.
Churchill needed the counsel of a friend—a decisive, clear-eyed friend.
It was just after midnight when he called Beaverbrook to the Cabinet Room. There was no doubt that Beaverbrook would still be awake and alert. As minister of aircraft production, he kept the same hours as Churchill, prodding and cajoling his staff to find ways to get Britain’s aircraft factories to accelerate production. Beaverbrook’s brief insurrection had been a schoolboy’s pout aimed at eliciting Churchill’s support against the Air Ministry, rather than a serious attempt at abandoning his job.
Already present for the meeting were Churchill’s top two Admiralty men, First Lord A. V. Alexander and his operations chief, First Sea Lord Sir Dudley Pound. There was tension in the room.
The matter of what to do about the French fleet had come down to a yes or no question—whether or not to attempt to seize the fleet to keep it out of Hitler’s hands.
The Royal Navy was poised to execute a newly devised plan for “the simultaneous seizure, control, or effective disablement of all the accessible French fleet,” meaning any ships in such English ports as Plymouth and Southampton, as well as those moored at French bases in Dakar, Alexandria, and Mers el-Kébir, in Algeria.
One element of the plan, code-named Operation Catapult, focused on the most important base, Mers el-Kébir, and a smaller annex three miles away at Oran, where some of the French navy’s most powerful ships lay at anchor, among them two modern battle cruisers, two battleships, and twenty-one other ships and submarines."
Source: Larson, Erik. The Splendid and the Vile (p. 117). Crown. Kindle Edition.
Discussion Topics and Questions:
1. What are your thoughts about Operation Catapult (pro and con)?
Do you feel that the attack was warranted? Why or why not? Did the English have reasons to not believe Admiral Darlan? Admiral Darlan had already given the order to scuttle the boats but the question might have been would those orders have been carried out? What showed how agonizing a decision this had been for Churchill? How was Operation Catapult a turning point for Britain with the American President FDR?
2. What was Force H and what was its objective? How did Force H get its final order and how did Churchill finally reach that decision? What are your thoughts regarding the process and the decision?
3. Hitler turned his attention to England. Why did Hitler ask about the feasibility of invading England? Why did Hitler wrongly assume that England would have withdrawn from the war by then? What was Hitler's real goal and why?
4. What is the meaning of the German word - Zweifrontenkrieg and why was it to be avoided? How was the demobilizing of 25 percent or 40 Wehrmacht divisions of his army - a strategic and arrogant error on the part of Hitler? Why did he do this? What were the grave obstacles that Germany would face if it decided upon an invasion?
5. How did the fact that British intelligence had learned that the Germans now possessed and were using French naval codes influence Churchill's decision?
6. Were you surprised that when Churchill delivered the sombering report of what happened as a result of Operation Catapult that the House was elated? What was Churchill's ability to deliver dire news which somehow made his audience uplifted and encouraged?
7. How difficult must the "carrying out of the direct and despicable order" have been for Somerville? What kind of blowback did Somerville get from his own senior officers and the French naval officers?
8. We learn that Clementine spoke perfect French - how was that perfect French used on her guest - Charles de Gaulle? Was Clementine out of line?
message 168:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Jul 08, 2020 12:50AM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
MR A V ALEXANDER, FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY ON A THREE DAY VISIT TO THE HOME FLEET, SCAPA FLOW, JANUARY 1943 © IWM (A 13926)
Left to right: Rear Admiral Robert Burnett, Flag Officer 10th Cruiser Squadron, the Right Honourable A V Alexander, First Lord of the Admiralty, and Admiral Sir John Tovey, Commander in Chief Home Fleet, chatting together on board the cruiser HMS BELFAST
Albert Victor Alexander, 1st Earl Alexander of Hillsborough, KG, CH, PC (1 May 1885 – 11 January 1965), was a British Labour Co-operative politician. He was three times First Lord of the Admiralty, including during the Second World War, and then Minister of Defence under Clement Attlee.
Remainder of article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._V._A...
More:
https://api.parliament.uk/historic-ha...
https://www.history.navy.mil/content/...
https://api.parliament.uk/historic-ha...
British Defence Minister A. V. Alexander visit Hong Kong 1949
Summary: Albert Victor Alexander, 1st Earl Alexander of Hillsborough, KG, CH, PC (1885 – 1965) was a British Labour Co-operative politician. He was three times First Lord of the Admiralty, including during the Second World War, and then Minister of Defence under Clement Attlee.
Link to Video: https://youtu.be/w885yful6cE (news video said that it hoped everything would now go well for Hong Kong!)
London Warships Week 1942
Summary: Various shots of massed crowds in Trafalgar Square for a huge rally in aid of London Warship Week. Part of the Square is decorated to look like a warship, with huge (model) guns jutting out. From the bridge of the model ship, Mr A V Alexander, First Lord of the Admiralty, makes a rousing speech, saying "England needs your help!". On the second day of the fund-raising week we see various shots of a parade through London by the Navy, ATS, RAF and other services. Sir John Laurie, Lord Mayor of London takes the salute. Floats go by, pulling a lifeboat, a model man-o-war sailing ship and the conning tower of an H class submarine. Commentator mentions the "strangely silent crowd-lined streets" as there is no cheering from spectators, but tells us by the end of the first day £28 million had been raised towards the £125 million target. So, "although we didn't cheer, it made us feel good.
Link to news video: https://www.britishpathe.com/video/lo...
Winston Churchill is Prime Minister - 1940 | Movietone ...
Summary: On this day in 1940 Winston Churchill succeeded Neville Chamberlain as British Prime Minister. Here's British Movietone's report. Mr Churchill becomes Prime Minister and names his new Cabinet. Mr & Mrs Chamberlain leave No 10 Downing Street to go to the Palace to hand in his resignation. New Cabinet Good shots of the following: Winston Churchill. Lord Halifax. Mr Clement Attlee. Arthur Greenwood Snr., Mr Herbert Morrison. AV Alexander. Mr Eden. Archibald Sinclair. Mr Duff Cooper. Cabinet Changes - Scenes of Winston Churchill. Scenes of Mr Chamberlain leaving No 10. Lord Halifax addresses Balkan envoys. Mr Attlee (Lord Privy Seal), Mr Greenwood, Mr Herbert Morrison, Mr Alexander, Anthony Eden, Sir Archibald Sinclair, Duff Cooper and Churchill again.
Link to video: https://youtu.be/QFtTnIh-duQ
Sources: Alamy, Wikipedia, UK Parliament, IWM, Naval History Heritage Command, British Pathe, Youtube
Title: Dinner party at the Royal Naval College, Greenwich, England, July 25, 1942.
Description: Dignitaries pose on the stops of the Painted Hall after dinner. From left to right: John G. Winant, US Ambassador to the UK; A.V. Alexander, First Lord of the Admirality; Winston Churchill, Prime Minster; William Bullitt, Special Assistant to the US Secretary of the Navy; ADM Ernest J. King, Chief of Naval Operations & Commander in Chief, US Fleet; Harry Hopkins, Special Advisor to President Roosevelt; ADM Harold R. Stark, Commander US Naval Forces in Europe; Admiral of the Fleet, Sir Dudley Pound, First Sea Lord. From the VADM Robert C. Giffen Photo Collection
message 169:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Jul 08, 2020 02:16AM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
Churchill and Pound - circa - 1939-40
More:
https://winstonchurchill.org/publicat...
http://dreadnoughtproject.org/tfs/ind...
The daughter of the First Sea Lord marries a Naval Officer at a London Church
Link: https://www.britishpathe.com/video/a-...
Winston Churchill And Sir Dudley Pound (1940)
Link: https://youtu.be/0SsNKolnbJg
Burial Of Sir Dudley Pound - No Sound
Summary: In London GS of Horse Guards Arch, with Marines marching thru same, taking up their positions along Whitehall to Westminster Abbey. GS of procession thru Horse Guards Arch, into Whitehall, Naval band leads, followed by gun carriage, bearing coffin, on each side being Adml. Cunningham, Adml. Evans, Sir John Dill, Gen. Brooke, Adml. Fraser, also his two sons, followed by the Duke of Gloucester, then Mr. Churchill, GS. of Wrens following procession, & nearing Abbey. At Portsmouth, GS Royal Marine Buglers, Cortege passing along quayside. Casket bearing ashes, being carried aboard the cruiser "Glasgow" followed by Lt. G.D. Pound & (R.N.) & Maj.M. Pounds (RM.) they are followed by Admiral Cunningham. GS from quarter deck, Casket being dropped overboard by Capt. Evans Lombe of "Glasgow", he salutes, his two sons (Adml.Pound) drop wreaths into water, also saluting. Wreath dropped into sea by Rear Adml. Dalrymple Hamilton. Firing volley in salute.
Link: https://youtu.be/H__jhBHpf54
by Robin Brodhurst (no photo)
by Malcolm H. Murfett (no photo)
by T.A. Heathcote (no photo)Sources: International Churchill Society, Wikipedia, Dreadnought Project, British Pathe
Conference leaders during Church services on the after deck of HMS Prince of Wales, in Placentia Bay, Newfoundland, during the Atlantic Charter Conference. President Franklin D. Roosevelt (left) and Prime Minister Winston Churchill are seated in the foreground. Standing directly behind them are Admiral Ernest J. King, USN; General George C. Marshall, U.S. Army; General Sir John Dill, British Army; Admiral Harold R. Stark, USN; and Admiral Sir Dudley Pound, RN. At far left is Harry Hopkins, talking with W. Averell Harriman - 1941
Dudley Pound memorial in All Saints' Church, Godshill, Isle of Wight
message 170:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Jul 08, 2020 02:25AM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
Week Seven - July 6th - July 12th
✓ Chapter 18: Resignation No. 1 - completed
✓ Chapter 19: Force H - completed
The moderator has added all discussion topics and questions, articles, videos, photos, and all other ancillary material.
Chapter 20: Berlin - to be completed this week
Please feel free to post and to respond and comment.
Regards,
Bentley
Bentley wrote: "And so we begin:CHAPTER 18
Resignation No. 1
"AS IF WAR AND INVASION were not enough to think about, that same day, Sunday, June 30, Churchill’s close friend and counselor and industrial mirac..."
Hi Bentley and all
So you are now up to where I was when HBC started so I will be participating form now on.
I think that Beaverbrook wanted to have more support from Churchill against his non agreeing colleagues. I think also that Churchill knew his man, his friend, and handled it the way he could have to get success.
Second whatever works in a marriage. so Clementine was not wrong
Haven't thought about why Beaverbrook did it - maybe he was just frustrated for the moment - and I really don't think he wanted to get out at the top as Colville suggests - he likely knew that his success had to continue for the Brits to succeed and who was there to do it?
Bentley wrote: "Churchills Darkest DecisionAs the situation worsens with the fall of France, the Nazis are poised to take the massive French fleet which would have given them the edge over Britain's authority ov..."
Really good video Bentley - thanks
Bentley wrote: "And so we begin:CHAPTER 19
Force H
"THE NIGHT WAS EXCEPTIONALLY DARK, with almost no moon; a brisk wind shook the windows at 10 Downing.
Churchill needed the counsel of a friend—a decisive, ..."
Lots of questions but I think that Churchill had little choice -
1) Darlan could be replaced for any of several reasons and then the scuttle order could have been changed
2) The French could have sailed the ships to ally with the English rather than stay as a possible tool of the Germans - that the French officers did not see this I cannot understand.
3) If the British could seize the French ships in their harbors why would not not imagine the Germans could do the same in harbors where they held the land?
So I think that Churchill was correct and the Parliament was also correct to fully support him.
message 174:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Jul 09, 2020 09:55AM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
Do you think that Beaverbrook worried about failing? Maybe he had been successful by brute force but was not getting the cooperation he thought he needed and maybe thought this is what he had to do to get attention. Hard to say.
Maybe Colville was right.
Glad that you are posting - and we are caught up to where you are.
Mod
I am glad that you enjoyed it.
message 176:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Jul 09, 2020 10:08AM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
Maybe they thought that they would be court marshalled but then again Darlan had given the scuttle order. Could it have been that Somerville only sent the captain because he knew French and that insulted the admiral - we will never know.
They could have just said that the British had mined their exit and they had no other choice which was true.
What a terrible loss of life which did not have to happen.
For all of the reasons you mentioned - Churchill did not have a choice I am afraid. The French were not thinking of England when they capitulated - they were thinking of France and of themselves unfortunately. And they had loss so many people already in those wars. It might just have been too much for them to bear. And they wanted the RAF planes to protect them to boot but were planning to surrender. None of the French plans made sense.
What I could not understand because the book did not explain it well - was why Charles De Gaulle was at Clementine's dinner where she gave him a tongue lashing after what he said? Why was he not in France at the time? I will have to look over the timing of that chapter better.
It was good that Parliament supported him because I doubt that Churchill could have borne the burden otherwise.
message 177:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Jul 09, 2020 06:37PM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
CHAPTER 20
Berlin
"HITLER WAS SERIOUS ABOUT SEEKING an agreement with Britain that would end the war, though he grew convinced that no such thing could be achieved while Churchill was still in power.
Britain’s attack on the French fleet at Mers el-Kébir had proved that beyond doubt.
In July, Hitler met with his deputy, Rudolf Hess, and told him of his frustration, conveying his “wish” that Hess find a way of engineering the removal of Churchill as prime minister so as to clear a path for negotiations with a presumably more pliable successor.
As Hess saw it, Hitler was assigning him the great mandate of securing peace in the west. To Hess, it was a welcome honor. For a time, he had been closer to Hitler than any other party member.
For eight years he served as Hitler’s private secretary, and, following the abortive Nazi putsch of 1923, was incarcerated with Hitler at Landsberg Prison, where Hitler began writing Mein Kampf. Hess typed the manuscript.
Hess understood that a central tenet of Hitler’s geopolitical strategy set out in the book was the importance of peace with Britain, and he knew how strongly Hitler believed that in the prior war Germany had made a fatal mistake in provoking Britain to fight. Hess considered himself so much in tune with Hitler that he could execute his will without being commanded to do so.
Hess hated Jews, and orchestrated many restrictions on Jewish life. He cast himself as the embodiment of the Nazi spirit and made himself responsible for perpetuating national adoration of Hitler and ensuring party purity.
Source: Larson, Erik. The Splendid and the Vile (p. 126). Crown. Kindle Edition.
Discussion Topics and Questions:
1. Since we do not glorify Nazis on this site - we will not be placing photos up on this thread which deal with Goebbels and Hess. But in beginning the chapter were you inclined to believe that Hitler was keen on ending the conflict with England - but of course, on what terms? Earlier we learned that Hitler did not want to fight a war on two fronts - and wanted to turn his attention to the Soviet Union. Goebbels, however, seemed to have much more sinister plans for Churchill - was Churchill's life in danger? And how did Hitler view Britain?
2. What were your thoughts on Hess? Was Hess himself guilty of Hitler adoration?
3. How did the British campaign in Norway in 1940 become such an ignominious and abject failure. How did this fiasco lead to the fall of Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain and his replacement by Winston Churchill?
message 178:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Jul 09, 2020 05:54PM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
Winston Churchill and General De Gaulle inspect assembled French troops on the Alsace front during the war in 1944.AFP (obviously much later than the timeline of the book)
1940
June 28
Britain recognizes General Charles de Gaulle as the leader of the Free French
On June 28, 1940, General Charles de Gaulle, having set up headquarters in England upon the establishment of a puppet government in his native France, is recognized as the leader of the Free French Forces, dedicated to the defeat of Germany and the liberation of all France.
For Charles de Gaulle, fighting Germans was an old story. He sustained multiple injuries fighting at Verdun in World War I. He escaped German POW camps five times, only to be recaptured each time. (At 6 feet 4 inches in height, it was hard for de Gaulle to remain inconspicuous.)
At the beginning of World War II, de Gaulle was commander of a tank brigade. He was admired as a courageous leader and made a brigadier general in May 1940. After the German invasion of France, he became undersecretary of state for defense and war in the Reynaud government, but when Reynaud resigned, and Field Marshal Philippe Petain stepped in, a virtual puppet of the German occupiers, he left for England. On June 18, de Gaulle took to the radio airwaves to make an appeal to his fellow French not to accept the armistice being sought by Petain, but to continue fighting under his command. Ten days later, Britain formally acknowledged de Gaulle as the leader of the “Free French Forces,” which was at first little more than those French troops stationed in England, volunteers from Frenchmen already living in England, and units of the French navy.
On August 2, a French military court sentenced de Gaulle to death in absentia for his actions. (No doubt at the instigation of the German occupiers.)
De Gaulle would prove an adept wartime politician, finally winning recognition and respect from the Allies and his fellow countrymen. He returned to Paris from Algiers, where he had moved the headquarters of the Free French Forces and formed a “shadow government,” in September 1943. He went on to head two provisional governments before resigning.
(Source: https://www.history.com/this-day-in-h...)
More:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/17/tr... (DeGaulle had fled to England)
https://www.theatlantic.com/internati...
http://www.christopherlong.co.uk/pri/...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic...
De Gaulle's 18 June 1940 Call: "Without Churchill's help he would have been nowhere"
Link to video: https://youtu.be/maCVsdfGW0Q
To All Free Frenchmen (1940) - in French
Link to Video: https://youtu.be/SBXaBiVLDr0
Charles De Gaulle - The Flame of French Resistance? - WW2 Biography Special
Link to Video: https://youtu.be/o89Leo2rpsA
Later DeGaulle
Johnson's Answer To De Gaulle (1965) - DeGaulle came out with some whacky things later on - maybe Clementine was right (smile) (poor Lyndon Johnson and the things he had to deal with)
Link to video: https://youtu.be/ihC04Q8trKg
De Gaulle Triumphant (1960)
Link to video: https://youtu.be/OaNGWMF5swA
Vive la Résistance! well, not really... French Resistance 1940 - WW2 - War Against Humanity 007
Link to video: https://youtu.be/ZhpxIN0jQFk
by
Julian T. Jackson
by
Charles de Gaulle
by
Julian T. JacksonSource: History.com, The Atlantic, The New York Times, Christopher Long, BBC, France 24, Youtube, British Pathe, World War II
message 179:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Jul 10, 2020 11:15AM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
Goebbels tries to stoke British hatred by the French because of Mers-el- Kebir . He tells the French - "Britain has really revealed herself without her mask"
He stokes hatred of Britain and of Churchill.
Norway during WWII
Battlefield - The Norwegian Campaign - Full Documentary
Link to video: https://youtu.be/CXRrftWguuc
Summary: Battlefield - The Norwegian Campaign -
The Norwegian campaign was the attempted Allied liberation of Norway from Nazi Germany during the early stages of World War II and directly following the German invasion and occupation of the Norwegian mainland and government. It took place from April 9, 1940, until June 10, 1940.
The ‘Forgotten Fiasco’ of Norway, 1940
Link to article: https://www.dailyscandinavian.com/for...
Summary: The British campaign in Norway in 1940 was an ignominious and abject failure. It is perhaps best known as the fiasco which directly led to the fall of Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain and his replacement by Winston Churchill.
by John Kiszely (no photo)
Norwegian village burned during a battle in April 1940
Summary: The Norwegian Campaign (9 April to 10 June 1940) was fought in Norway between Norway, the Allies and Germany in World War II after the latter's invasion of the country. In April, the United Kingdom and France came to Norway's aid with an expeditionary force. Despite moderate success in the northern parts of Norway, the Allies were eventually compelled to withdraw by Germany's invasion of France in May, and the Norwegian government sought exile in London.
Link: https://youtu.be/gJ4Yi2ElS44
Sources: Youtube, Battlefield, The Daily Scandinavian
Mod
Week Eight - July 13th - July 19th
Chapter 21: Champagne and Garbo
Chapter 22: Have We Sunk So Low?
Chapter 23: What’s in a Name?
message 181:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Jul 10, 2020 05:42AM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
Week Eight - July 13th - July 19th
Chapter 21: Champagne and Garbo
Coleville is still suffering from delusions when Gay Margesson visits. They take in the Strauss operetta Die Fledermaus and drink champagne and watch Garbo impersonations.
Chapter 22: Have We Sunk So Low?
England prepares for an invasion, the Queen learns how to shoot, civilians are warned not to run because the Germans would gun them down from the air like they did in Belgium and Holland. The Germans commenced isolated bombings in various locations in the British Isles. The RAF was now acknowledged to be the first line of defense against Germany. Churchill sent daily communications to FDR. Lord Beaverbrook returns, makes many planes and as many enemies; the public from a variety of global locations contributes money to build bombers and Beaverbrook makes this a public relations campaign (Spitfire Fund). Depending upon the amount of donations - towns could name a bomber or a fighter. Hitler plans Operation Sea Lion.
Chapter 23: What’s in a Name?
A child (or two) is be born and what should their names be.
Mod
Week Seven - July 6th - July 12th
✓ Chapter 18: Resignation No. 1 - completed
✓ Chapter 19: Force H - completed
✓ Chapter 20: Berlin - completed
The moderator has added all discussion topics and questions, articles, videos, photos, and all other ancillary material for this week's reading assignment.
Please feel free to post and to respond and comment to any of the discussion topics, questions, articles, events in the chapters up through the end of Chapter 20 without spoilers. Next week's assignment is posted above as well as next week's chapter overviews and summaries. See you Monday; in the meantime please post and try your hand at the discussion topics and questions.
Regards,
Bentley
Chapter 21 - while I think it is "splendid" that Coleville & Gay are romantically progressing I wonder why this is worth a chapter - unless later she is a Mata-Hari type spy. - that is a silly conjecture not a spoiler. Maybe I should investigate Bentley like before commenting but....
message 184:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Jul 13, 2020 03:28PM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
For me, it distracts from the book - very, very strange - like he could not figure what else to write about so he sticks poor Gay in when obviously she had placed Coleville in the "friend" category a long time ago.
I personally did not see any progressing on the part of Gay but then again it seems that Coleville is forever "hopeful" - now back to Churchill.
Thank you for commenting Vincent - I too was perplexed and had no idea what the fixation was all about regarding Coleville and whoever he was with.
Chapter 22 - very interesting but who of us has lived with regular aerial dog fights above our heads with potential grim consequences if your side lost. (Any British readers who went thru it or whose parents etc told them something). But people take pleasure in seeing the defeat of a dirty dog and certainly the Germans were dirty dogs against the other folks in Western Europe. The contributions and their groundswell is so human. People want to participate when they can in something they believe it. This reminds me of the groundswell of continuous, most small, recurring contributions to Bernie Sanders in the last campaigns for the Democratic nomination.
Bearerbrook's encouragement of the support certainly was good for the spirit of the British people and helped fund the war. Better than war bonds that have to be paid back (if you don't lost badly)
The Brits of course had to "win" the Battle of Britain to not lose the war and by doing so, with Beaverbrook providing volume of aircraft as part of it, meant that Hitler's wish to have a sea invasion was going to be problematic for him.
chapter 23 - well the Harriman girl got her way. I am curious if she was always "so special" - Any one have any idea how many British boys were named Winston during the war? An ex-colleague of mine whose father was born during WWII was name "Douglas MacArthur"...last name.
message 187:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Jul 13, 2020 03:36PM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
Yes, Beaverbrook was on to something getting the public to become part of the project and solution. Beaverbrook despite his personality quirks was exactly the right man in that spot and we can thank Beaverbrook for his stamina and we can thank Churchill for appointing him and not letting him off the hook.
Here, if it works, is a link to a BBC Spitfire Fund piece including a short videohttps://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-3...
message 189:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Jul 13, 2020 03:59PM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
I loved the entrepreneurial spirit of the Kent farmer - basically come see nothing - so that we can keep it that way.
A Kent farmer charged people sixpence "to see the only field in Kent without a German aircraft in it".
The Spitfire pilots must have loved that plane when they were not fighting the Germans - being able to dive and climb as they did!
Vincent, thank you so much for the BBC Spitfire Fund Piece — it was grand. And the allure of the Spitfire continues to the present. My husband has an IWC Spitfire Pilot’s watch. No foolin’!Regards,
Andrea
Andrea wrote: "Vincent, thank you so much for the BBC Spitfire Fund Piece — it was grand. And the allure of the Spitfire continues to the present. My husband has an IWC Spitfire Pilot’s watch. No foolin’!Regards..."
Hi Andrea - what is IWC please?
You are very welcome
Bentley, did I actually catch you out???? Oh my Goodness!!! An IWC watch is a watch made by the International Watch Company out of Switzerland. And in my humble opinion, their watches cost the earth and then some. They are incredibly true in the excellence of their reproduction, however.Regards,
Andrea
Mod
Sorry, Vincent and Bentley, the neighbors are serenading us and my mind is not completely on what I’m doing. Ah, music on the airways in the summer!Regards,
Andrea
Chapter 24 - well it certainly reinforced the value of The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich to have William Shirer in the audience of Hitler addressing the Reichstag. - the description of his lies - (Hitler's) sadly made me think of our Presidnet - using maybe alternate truths rather than simple lies. So arrogant Hitler after Churchill's refusal to negotiate got him to give the first modern lie spreader - Goebbels - to begin to spread new propaganda to discourage the Brits. I have read in past that Goebbels was the beginner or real marketing/ polling by gathering regional information in different towns/ beer halls etc of what Hitler could use to appeal to voters in those areas. He never got a majority but got a "base"......................
Chapter 25 - so I think I would really have liked to have been at his famous dinners - rather smaller quantities of alcohol than the host but I used to enjoy a good cigar - Lindemann with the hand grenade and Beaverbook was the icing on the cake.
Chapter 26 - so Winston had to keep face and spirits up in his constant search for US support (I guess just enough desperation - but not too much) and Randolph fell further into disgrace.
Mod
Vincent, you would love two books that discuss the subject of Churchill and food. They are as follows:Regards,
Andrea
by
David Lough
by
Cita Stelzer
Hi AndreaThanks -I have noted the titles - but I am pretty occupied and I have a big big book backlog - so maybe in the future
Best
Vince
The History Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Franklin Delano Roosevelt: Champion of Freedom (other topics)The Patriarch: The Remarkable Life and Turbulent Times of Joseph P. Kennedy (other topics)
The Kennedys Amidst the Gathering Storm: A Thousand Days in London, 1938-1940 (other topics)
Dunkirk Lib/E: The History Behind the Major Motion Picture (other topics)
America's Global Role: Essays and Reviews on National Security, Geopolitics, and War (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Conrad Black (other topics)David Nasaw (other topics)
Will Swift (other topics)
Joshua Levine (other topics)
Francis Sempa (other topics)
More...
CHAPTER 15
London and Berlin
"AT 6:36 P.M., SATURDAY, JUNE 22, the French signed an armistice with Hitler. Britain was now officially alone. At Chequers the next day, the news about France soured the atmosphere.
“A wrathful & gloomy breakfast downstairs,” Mary wrote in her diary. Churchill was in a black mood. What consumed his thoughts and darkened his spirits was the French fleet. Germany had not immediately disclosed the precise terms of the armistice, and thus the official fate of the fleet remained a mystery.
That Hitler would annex its ships seemed certain. The effect would be catastrophic, likely both to change the balance of power in the Mediterranean and to make a German invasion of England even more certain. Churchill’s behavior annoyed Clementine.
She sat down to write him a letter, recognizing, as always, that the best way to get his attention for anything was in writing. She began, “I hope you will forgive me if I tell you something that I feel you ought to know.” She completed the letter, but then tore it up."
Source: Larson, Erik. The Splendid and the Vile (p. 102). Crown. Kindle Edition.
Discussion Topics and Questions:
1. Did you find it strange for a wife to write her husband a letter while he is living in the same house with her instead of having a discussion with him face to face? And then stranger still - not giving it to him but tearing it up? Why do you think Clementine felt the need to write to Winston - but then decided to tear up the letter before she gave it to him? What would be the reasons that she decided not to go through with discussing her feelings face to face or at all?
2. If Churchill had not made the decision that he did about the French fleet - what could potentially have been the sad outcome? Do you agree with Churchill's decision even though it was a terrible and tragic loss of lives - men who had been allies weeks before?
3. Why was naval power so critical during World War II and to Churchill? What were the German's strengths? How strong was their Navy? Why was Churchill short on ships? What resources did Churchill have to acquire more?
4. Goebbels was wrong about Dunkirk and now he makes another prediction: "Goebbels told the group, “Well, this week will bring the great swing in Britain”—meaning that with France fallen, the English public would now, surely, clamor for peace. “Churchill, of course, can’t hold on,” he said. “A compromise government will be formed. We are very close to the end of the war.” How did Churchill prove him wrong yet again and why did he continually misread the Brits?
Source: Larson, Erik. The Splendid and the Vile (p. 103). Crown. Kindle Edition.