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Dombey and Son
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Dombey, Chapters 49 - 51
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Tristram wrote: "I mean her father has violently struck her, and she is sitting in front of her mirror, not bearing the sight of herself, whose body is marked by the bruises, and yet she does not even find a single word or thought of reproach for her father? Come on! Where is there any notion of self-respect in that?"You would not ask this question if you had been a family law lawyer with many clients who were victims of domestic violence. She exhibits the classic symptoms of battered spouse or child syndrome. In fact, I am impressed that Dickens was able to represent the feelings and emotions of a victim of domestic abuse so accurately.
Tristram wrote: "Running away from the conflict that securing her own position in life would involve, Florence dreams of being a governess and leading a life of self-denial in obscurity. This seems very, very Little-Nellish!"Well, at least she isn't thinking of going into a convent!
Tristram wrote: "the quiet housewifery of Florence in assisting to clear the table, arrange the parlour, and sweep up the hearth—"...and we know very well what image Dickens had of womanhood. And for all my admiration of Dickens as a writer, nay as a creator of dreams and worlds, I must say that I thoroughly despise the image he creates of what a woman should be like....
Oh, dear. Admiring a capable woman clearing the table, arranging the parlor, and sweeping the modern equivalent of the hearth is a quite precise example of my life as I intensely admire, after 35 years of bachelorhood, my wife's ability to turn a physical structure into a delightfully happy home. If you despise a man who admires these traits in a woman, I will have to accept your eternal, bitter censure.
I'm just curious -- are any of the women here offended by that image of Florence?
Tristram wrote: "How did you like these three chapters? "I thought the first two were a bit maudlin, but were pleasant enough except for Captain Cuttle going on and on about Walter drowned, even when he knew he wasn't -- I didn't understand why he did that, and got quite annoyed with it. The chapters weren't that interesting, really quite predictable, but I was glad that Florence took the initiative to bring Walter to drop the brother role and embrace the lover role. I had predicted their marriage, and while there are still enough chapters left for Dickens to toss a roadblock or two in the way, I am hoping he lets the nuptials come off before the end of the book. And, or course, that Solomon Gill returns in time for them, and they broach that bottle of port.
As for Dombey, perhaps I'm too soft-hearted, but I actually feel sorry for him.
Mrs. Chick continues to both exasperate and amuse. Loved her thought "Mrs Chick can only shake her head, and use her handkerchief, and moan over degenerate Dombeys, who are no Dombeys."
As for Miss Tox, goodness gracious, will she actually scoop the pot after all?
Everyman wrote: "I'm just curious -- are any of the women here offended by that image of Florence?"I was not offended by that image of Florence. Up until now, Captain Cuttle has been taking care of himself. We just witnessed him prepare with skill a wonderful dinner for Florence. He had lovingly arranged Florence's room with bed and table for her to recuperate in. Florence is, in turn, doing what she can to show her gratitude and make an evening more pleasant for the Captain. And considering up until now, she has always had everything taken care of for her by servants, I was happy to see her taking the initiative to do these things that I'm assuming she has never really had to think about before.
It it likewise with my husband and myself. He gets off work and home an hour before I do, so he is the one who prepares dinner for the family almost every night. But when a disruption in our regular routine occurs, like now that we are all on vacation for the holidays, there is nothing I like more than taking the time to make some homemade soup and bread and serve my family. The thought of serving my family doesn't offend me just because I happen to be a woman.
Everyman wrote: "As for Miss Tox, goodness gracious, will she actually scoop the pot after all?"Ha ha!!! "scoop the pot" - that's great!
Everyman wrote: "except for Captain Cuttle going on and on about Walter drowned, even when he knew he wasn't -- I didn't understand why he did that, and got quite annoyed with it."Yes, I was quite annoyed by that as well. And then when it turned out that he knew Walter was alive and well, I was baffled by why he had been going on and on about Walter being drowned! That's the one time I shook my fist at the Captain.
I was glad that Florence took the initiative to bring Walter to drop the brother role and embrace the lover role.
Likewise. I was afraid that Florence wouldn't actually see that Walter loved her as a potential wife, that she would be blind to that possibility and only see him as a brother. I'm glad she came to her senses.
"Tristram wrote: "I mean her father has violently struck her, and she is sitting in front of her mirror, not bearing the sight of herself, whose body is marked by the bruises, and yet she does not e...""Everyman wrote: You would not ask this question if you had been a family law lawyer with many clients who were victims of domestic violence. She exhibits the classic symptoms of battered spouse or child syndrome."
I'm glad you point this out, Everyman. Like Tristram, I was also annoyed with Florence for not at least being angry with her father. I had not thought of the domestic violence aspect of her actions.
I'm also anxious to get back to Carker and Edith and see what's going on with them! It's taking all my might not to read ahead...
Linda wrote: "I'm also anxious to get back to Carker and Edith and see what's going on with them! It's taking all my might not to read ahead..."Imagine what the original readers had to go through, waiting a full month for the next episode!
Everyman wrote: "Imagine what the original readers had to go through, waiting a full month for the next episode!"I know, I was actually thinking that when I finished this section. And actually they had two months to wait since we didn't read anything of Carker and Edith in this installment.
Chapter 49
The Shadow in the Little Parlour
Phiz (Hablot K. Browne)
Chapter 51
Mr. Dombey and the World
Phiz
I also did not find myself feeling sorry for Dombey. He couldn't even find it in himself to discuss the possible whereabouts of Florence whenever someone tried to bring up the subject. Surely he must be thinking of her?? Although, maybe I'm giving him too much credit in assuming that he must be thinking about his daughter at all. If he can't show any feeling towards Florence at this point, I have no soft feelings towards him.
Here's an extra illustration done by F. O. C. Darley:
"William Evans Burton (1804–1860) English actor, playwright, publisher. Portrayed characters in dramatizations of Charles Dickens' (1812-1870)works."
So what do you think, does it look like our Captain?
Joy wrote: "Since he doesn't seem to have the wherewithal to feel sorry for himself I am certainly not going to do it for him. "LOL!!
Kim wrote: "So what do you think, does it look like our Captain?"No, not at all. He looks a bit down in the dumps. Not jovial enough.
Kim wrote: "Here's an extra illustration done by F. O. C. Darley:"If I didn't know to look for Walter's shadow on the wall, I wouldn't have seen it.
Kim wrote: ""William Evans Burton (1804–1860) English actor, playwright, publisher. Portrayed characters in dramatizations of Charles Dickens' (1812-1870)works."So what do you think, does it look like our ..."
I don't like this image of Cuttle. To me, Cuttle is a happy, bubbling character, who, when not worrying about "the stinger" would be a grand companion. This guy looks like he is getting ready to rob someone.
Everyman wrote: "Tristram wrote: "I mean her father has violently struck her, and she is sitting in front of her mirror, not bearing the sight of herself, whose body is marked by the bruises, and yet she does not e..."You are definitely right, Everyman, when you say that many victims of domestic abuse do not blame their aggressors but rather themselves. However, the difference is that we nowadays would try to make them realize that this is a misconception whereas the narrator in Dombey and Son, and I think the narrator's voice can be taken for Dickens's own in this instance, clearly means us to admire Florence for that kind of forbearance.
Everyman wrote: " If you despise a man who admires these traits in a woman, I will have to accept your eternal, bitter censure."I would certainly not despise a man for admiring such a woman, but I find it rather striking that Florence, on her second (?) day at the Midshipman's slips into the role of the housewife already. I also think that Dickens makes quite a lot of this pattern of behaviour: There is not only Florence, but there was also that eldest daughter of the family across the street who was presented as a perfect housewife. And I distinctly remember the cringeworthy chapter in which Ruth was making the pudding for Tom in MC.
Linda wrote: "Everyman wrote: "I'm just curious -- are any of the women here offended by that image of Florence?"I was not offended by that image of Florence. Up until now, Captain Cuttle has been taking care..."
What I actually liked in Florence was how she positively made the Captain smoke a pipe. I ought to underline that passage and give it to my wife ...
Linda wrote: "Everyman wrote: "except for Captain Cuttle going on and on about Walter drowned, even when he knew he wasn't -- I didn't understand why he did that, and got quite annoyed with it."Yes, I was quit..."
When I read the Chapter, I, too, was asking myself why on Earth Captain Cuttle would rub it in so mercilessly by inanely repeating that question about Walter's having drowned. I found it rather cruel seeing what effect it had on Florence, and I wondered at the Captain's apparent obtuseness.
Then it came to me as an afterthought that he was probably trying, in his odd way, to prepare Florence for the truth - seeing that it might come as too big a shock for Florence to see Walter on the doorstep, just like that. At the end, however, was that not what happened?
Kim wrote: ""William Evans Burton (1804–1860) English actor, playwright, publisher. Portrayed characters in dramatizations of Charles Dickens' (1812-1870)works."So what do you think, does it look like our ..."
Hmmm, he looks more like some of the pirates from Treasure Island, and one with a hangover at that.
All the comments on Florence's most recent actions and their motivation(s) are very interesting. Up to the point where her father struck her I have found her portrayal very interesting and enjoyable. When she flees from Dombey's house it is evident that she realizes the perils of being near her father and the necessity to ensure her own safety. At the Midshipman, Florence does not have any second thoughts about returning to her father, but she certainly does think about him. Here, I think is the key point.I know next to nothing about child abuse, but certainly some victims blame themselves rather than their aggressors for their injuries. Everyman has a good point here.
I do, however, come back to Florence's present position. She realizes that any hope for a loving father is, at this point in her life, impossible. What I see is Florence doing is the only thing possible and that is to get on with her life. Florence knows she is without a home, money, or a loving parent, and so she begins to create another family. She is fully able to care for herself and take on some responsibility for the caring of Captain Cuttle and creating a home life within the Midshipman. Florence's maturity is evidenced when she does not carry on with the "Walter is my brother" game but sees him as a man, and herself as now a woman.
Our perception of Florence travels through two filters. The first, the perception of a woman and how a woman is defined by our 21C filter, may show Florence as weak and unfulfilled as a woman of our time, but D&S comes to us from 1846 - 1848. The second filter is Dickens' own view of a woman, and her role within a family, a marriage and a society of the mid 19C. As long as men and woman are free to choose their own paths without the censure of society, I see little wrong with a woman, or a man, pursuing what they want to be, and how they want to live their lives, so long as they do no harm to others.
Personally, I find Florence to be a very kind, loving, resourceful and strong young lady. Is it naïve to believe that it requires more strength to forgive than to hate? If Florence was a weak character she would have stayed and continued to accept her father's horrid conduct towards her. Florence did not stay. She sought out and found a new home where she would be welcomed. She took on the responsibility of being a "homemaker" to help Captain Cuttle and not simply be a freeloader in the Midshipman. Florence was a woman who opened up Walter's eyes to the concept of love rather than filial friendship, and she refused to feel sorry for herself.
With all these adventures and explorations into her new mature world, will she despise her father should they meet again, or meet him as an equal?
Tristram wrote: "When I read the Chapter, I, too, was asking myself why on Earth Captain Cuttle would rub it in so mercilessly by inanely repeating that question about Walter's having drowned. I found it rather cruel seeing what effect it had on Florence, and I wondered at the Captain's apparent obtuseness."I wonder if Captain Cuttle kept repeating that Walter had drowned because he himself could not grasp that Walter actually had not drowned and was the sole survivor of the ship's disaster? With him repeating to Florence that Walter had drowned, and Florence reaffirming this statement, he could try and tell himself that he was not under some initial misunderstanding, that he was not crazy, I guess? It IS pretty extraordinary that Walter was the only one to survive.
Peter wrote: "Personally, I find Florence to be a very kind, loving, resourceful and strong young lady. Is it naïve to believe that it requires more strength to forgive than to hate? If Florence was a weak character she would have stayed and continued to accept her father's horrid conduct towards her. Florence did not stay. She sought out and found a new home where she would be welcomed. She took on the responsibility of being a "homemaker" to help Captain Cuttle and not simply be a freeloader in the Midshipman. Florence was a woman who opened up Walter's eyes to the concept of love rather than filial friendship, and she refused to feel sorry for herself."Very nice analysis of Florence, Peter. I find myself agreeing with this, even though I had not thoroughly thought this out myself. Although I was initially perturbed that she was not angry at her father, you bring up a good point that it IS more difficult, and therefore requires more strength, to forgive than to hate. And through all of this, it is nice to see she is not feeling sorry for herself, but is instead taking charge of her life.
Tristram wrote: "Then it came to me as an afterthought that he was probably trying, in his odd way, to prepare Florence for the truth - seeing that it might come as too big a shock for Florence to see Walter on the doorstep, just like that. "But wouldn't it be more of a shock if she really believed him drowned than if Cuttle had been saying maybe he was saved, maybe he still lives?
Everyman wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Then it came to me as an afterthought that he was probably trying, in his odd way, to prepare Florence for the truth - seeing that it might come as too big a shock for Florence to ..."You are right, Everyman, but we are talking about Captain Cuttle here, and maybe not all his actions are logical. But the more thoughts I am giving this, the more I'd second what Linda said in message 30. Still I find the Captain's reiterative question rather dumb and annoying.
Peter wrote: "All the comments on Florence's most recent actions and their motivation(s) are very interesting. Up to the point where her father struck her I have found her portrayal very interesting and enjoyabl..."Thanks for this really thoughtful post, Peter! In fact, it is necessary to bear in mind, when discussing Dickens, that he would, of course, give a view shaped by 1840s sensibilities, whereas our perception might be very different. And here I definitely rushed to conclusions, or rather: judgments. It reminds me of an error in reasoning, or an omission, a young teacher once committed, whose lessons I attended as an instructor. The topic was Much Ado About Nothing, and the question of the lesson was, "Is Beatrice the perfect wife?" The teacher was anticipating her students' feminist criticism of Beatrice's being subdued in the last Act, but she was very dismayed when the students stuck close to the text - with references even - and argued from the contemporaries' point of view before they finally made the second step of critically assessing the whole thing from their own point of view. That was one of these heart-warming cases when a class are ahead of their teacher.
Maybe, I should have made that distinction in my criticism of Florence, too. But then it always strikes me that Dickens's heroines are somewhat passive and one-dimensional, whereas the female characters created by Trollope, George Eliot and last not least Jane Austen are, of course, still subject to social constraints, but infinitely more round as characters.
Tristram wrote: "Peter wrote: "All the comments on Florence's most recent actions and their motivation(s) are very interesting. Up to the point where her father struck her I have found her portrayal very interestin..."Tristram
You are certainly correct in your comments that the great majority (or would that be ALL) of Dickens's heroines are rather passive and one-dimensional. Up to D&S I too have chaffed at the female protagonists. For some reason, however, I find the character of Florence to be different, set apart, and far more engaging than her earlier female counterparts. I think this is in part because I find D&S much better, richer, and more psychologically evolved than his earlier novels.
I wonder if it was the fresh air of Europe that created this more mature Dickens, the evolving facts of his personal life, or just that magic that sprinkles down upon a great artist one day to elevate their powers even more.
I'm also into my Forster "make connections" mode and am about to weary you all with more Shakespeare/Dickens connections and possibilities. As a good Canadian, I apologize in advance. ;-)
Tristram wrote: "Still I find the Captain's reiterative question rather dumb and annoying."Me too.
Here's an illustration of Cousin Feenix by Joseph Clayton Clarke known as Kyd. It was painted in 1920. I only thought of it because he and Major Bagstock come to visit Dombey after Edith leaves in Chapter 51:
And while I'm at it here's the Major, in Kyd's mind anyway:
Kim wrote: "And while I'm at it here's the Major, in Kyd's mind anyway:"
Is it me or is it the fact that Kyd's portrayal of the characters' faces is way off what they should be? The major was a blustery and useless bag of wind. I have always imagined him to be portrayed as somewhat of a buffoon. This picture makes him look greasy and sinister.
Peter wrote: "Kim wrote: "And while I'm at it here's the Major, in Kyd's mind anyway:"
Is it me or is it the fact that Kyd's portrayal of the characters' faces is way off what they should be? The major was a..."
I agree. There's no way that Dombey would befriend a person who looked like Kyd's major.
Peter wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Peter wrote: "All the comments on Florence's most recent actions and their motivation(s) are very interesting. Up to the point where her father struck her I have found her portraya..."We should surely keep track of Dickens's female characters and carefully count their dimensions ;-) As so often, I can only repeat myself and say that one Lizzie Greystock or Lydia Gwilt is worth ten Ruths or Little Nells ... at least when it comes to assessing their potential as literary characters and their closeness to real life people.
What put me finally off Florence is her lack of self-respect and her readiness to humble herself before her father, who has evidently no grain of interest in nor kindness for her. Even by the standards of Victorian times, this must have been strange.
Cousin Feenix, as presented by Kyd, is still acceptable although I would have figured him leaner and smaller, somehow more grasshopperish. I would also agree with Peter and Everyman, though, that the drawing of Major is absolutely not compatible to the Major's character in the book. Kyd's Major really looks like a felon in poor disguise - whereas Dickens's Major would not seem menacing at all to me, only, as Peter pointed out, like a buffoon.
Tristram wrote: "What put me finally off Florence is her lack of self-respect and her readiness to humble herself before her father,.."But what else do you expect from a 19th century young woman brought up without a mother to guide her? Women were taught to be self-effacing and subservient, which is exactly what she is. And almost every unloved adolescent craves love even where it isn't being given, and blames themself for the failure to gather love.
So I find Florence very much a product of her age (both historical and chronological), and find Dickens once again to be an amazing student of human psychology.
Nevertheless, I would have thought the human psyche a more complex thing in that Florence might have felt the moral obligation to honour and to love her father notwithstanding his cruel and callous behaviour, whereas at the same time she would have felt some resentment against him - a feeling that she would have tried to suppress, but which was still there. Dickens's Florence, however, is all love and forbearance, without any undercurrent of darker feelings and without any emotional rifts.
She just seems to "perfect" (from a Victorian point of view) to me.
Before I saw these illustrations by "Kyd" - and the earlier ones too (thanks Kim!) I had thought I liked his illustrations. Now though, I think he's way off the mark in terms of characterisation. Perhaps the only ones I have seen have been of very famous characters - such as those in A Christmas Carol - and the artist known as "Kyd" had not in fact read some of the novels from which he took characters to illustrate. It certainly feels like that!
I don't think I've ever seen any of his from A Christmas Carol, I didn't even know he did any of that book. I've only ever seen them from the books we read at the time I post them. I'll just search for Dombey illustrations by Kyd and get those. I'll have to go look at the ones for A Christmas Carol. I'm not even sure how I found this person in the first place. I also wonder if he read the books he was illustrating. I don't know.
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even at the risk of sounding more grumpy than usual, I will readily and most vociferously confess that this week's read was, on the whole, disappointing to me. Chapters 49 and 50 were lenghty and corny, and I don't like it how the Captain and Walter most readily make use of the love-stricken Mr. Toots; even if he himself seems to enjoy it.
Now, what news on the Rialto?
In Chapter 49 we are finally let in on the secret that Captain Cuttle has been acquainted with by Mr. Brogley: Walter is back. It's not a really big surprise to me, though, given that Dickens would usually come up with a happy ending for his characters.
In the course of that chapter I also got extremely annoyed with Florence, whose forbearing spirit of self-sacrifice set my hairs on end. I mean her father has violently struck her, and she is sitting in front of her mirror, not bearing the sight of herself, whose body is marked by the bruises, and yet she does not even find a single word or thought of reproach for her father? Come on! Where is there any notion of self-respect in that?
And then her idea of making her way in life, far away from her father:
"She had indistinct dreams of finding, a long way off, some little sisters to instruct, who would be gentle with her, and to whom, under some feigned name, she might attach herself, and who would grow up in their happy home, and marry, and be good to their old governess, and perhaps entrust her, in time, with the education of their own daughters. And she thought how strange and sorrowful it would be, thus to become a grey-haired woman, carrying her secret to the grave, when Florence Dombey was forgotten. But it was all dim and clouded to her now. She only knew that she had no Father upon earth, and she said so, many times, with her suppliant head hidden from all, but her Father who was in Heaven."
Running away from the conflict that securing her own position in life would involve, Florence dreams of being a governess and leading a life of self-denial in obscurity. This seems very, very Little-Nellish!
Add to this a passage like the following,
"The Captain's delight and wonder at the quiet housewifery of Florence in assisting to clear the table, arrange the parlour, and sweep up the hearth—only to be equalled by the fervency of his protest when she began to assist him—were gradually raised to that degree, that at last he could not choose but do nothing himself, and stand looking at her as if she were some Fairy, daintily performing these offices for him; the red rim on his forehead glowing again, in his unspeakable admiration.",
and we know very well what image Dickens had of womanhood. And for all my admiration of Dickens as a writer, nay as a creator of dreams and worlds, I must say that I thoroughly despise the image he creates of what a woman should be like.
Chapter 50 tells us more about the relationship between Walter and Florence, about Walter's growing love of Florence, whom he has come to regard as a woman now, and of his resulting obligation to shun her presence. All in all, I felt invited to leaf over to the next chapter, which brings the course of the story back to Dombey and the world.
What will people think of me? seems to be the question that haunts Dombey. The Major intimates the necessity of a duel between Dombey and Carker, and Cousin Feenix, in his own particular way, assures him of his general support. In the most general of terms. Solely Miss Tox seems to be concerned about Dombey as a human being (but where is her sympathy with Florence?), whereas the servants and the employees relish the bad news as people, unfortunately, will relish news of catastrophes befalling the great ones. Here, after doses of sugar and kitsch, we have back Dickens, the keen observer of human folly ;-)
I hope the narrator will not revert too soon to Florence and Walter but let us hear some more of Carker and Edith instead.
How did you like these three chapters?