YOU ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR TRADITIONAL PUBLISHING, RIGHT?

[A.K.]

Regina wrote: "Dude..."

Using the word [ dude ] doesn't make you any more correct in your assumptions than it does making you seem younger than you are.

[A.K.]

Ken wrote: "By that I meant: Brushing up on the use of who/whom would be a great start toward establishing your credibility as a writer. Also, then/than choices might need a little help."

Well then, Ken, I retract my recent apology and repeat: 'I've never claimed to be an editor, but thank you for the editorial critique and assistance, sir.'

[J.T.]

I was going to type a thoughtful response, but this thread isn't even worth it.

--signed, a hybrid author. (yes, that means both traditionally and self-published)

P.S. my self published titles are earning me more money.

[Jim]

Unfortunately, this discussion thread is slowly but surely devolving into a spitting match. Opinion and emotion occasionally replace fact and logic.

The final outcome of a spitting match is always the same. The participants end up covered in spit and nothing is resolved.

[A.K.]

J.T. wrote: "I was going to type a thoughtful response... my self published titles are earning me more money. "

Okay?

[Regina]

I'm sorry. You're right. I shouldn't have even responded.

I just...snapped. This was just the next thing in a long, steady stream of author spam I endured this morning from various sources. Maybe I shouldn't get online before I finish the first cup of joe in the morning. So...yeah. Sorry.

Anyways, I am not surprised you're making more money off the self pubbed works. I knew that self pubbed books make more of a royalty than traditionally pubbed books, but what I read when I went down the Harlequin rabbit-hole shocked even jaded, prickly old me. Harlequin offers an even smaller cut, holds onto the rights for out of prints for years, and has let go of several of its editors. So clearly they're on the ropes.

I am not going to retire on my book earnings so far, but I've made enough to do few fun things, and that's nice. I doubt a traditional house would have treated me nearly as well as Amazon has. In all honesty, even if someone offered me a traditional contract, I would hesitate about accepting it, and I doubt I'd consider it for my current work. I just don't really see an upside to it.

[A.K.]

Jim wrote: "Unfortunately, this discussion thread is slowly but surely devolving into a spitting match..."

I wholly agree, Jim! My intentions were and are still noble, but some who're covertly angered at the current status of their writing career and/or the decisions they've made during their journey see my counsel as spam and me as a bot; all because I (a writer myself) dare to empathize with the struggles of we lovers of the written word. It's crazy, but not surprising!

[Rayanne]

Been to a few of those - not a publisher/agent in sight. And if they are inundated with queries, why would they show up to be fed upon? I get it...and moved on.

[Regina]

Exactly. I think the depressing part is that we are acutely aware that we are part of this big, teeming, faceless mass all clamoring to be noticed. It's really tough. Building an audience does not happen overnight. It takes years. But the time passes anyway, so I'd rather spend it doing just that than spend it languishing around waiting for a pink slip.

[Martyn]

A.K. wrote: "I wholly agree, Jim! My intentions were and are still noble, but some who're covertly angered at the current status of their writing career and/or the decisions they've made during their journey see my counsel as spam and me as a bot; all because I (a writer myself) dare to empathize with the struggles of we lovers of the written word. It's crazy, but not surprising!"

I don't care about someone self-promoting, but I do mind both the self-righteous complaint when you're caught out that those who point at you would do so out of frustration with their own writing/publishing.

In two threads you accused naysayers of having 'angst'.

Not to mention the fallacies in your arguments. Referring to one of your own articles as proof for your 'credentials'. Considering the correct use of who/whom and then/than to be the domain of an editor, not a writer...

What you are doing a veiled form of spam. You copy/paste from your blog into these threads and every post you make contains links intend to draw people to your blog/website. This is not a discussion. And I don't want to assist you in your self-promotion.

[Quoleena]

A.K. wrote: "Jim wrote: "Unfortunately, this discussion thread is slowly but surely devolving into a spitting match..."

I wholly agree, Jim! My intentions were and are still noble, but some who're covertly ang..."

I'll point out [only] two problems with your thread and your comments. 1: your continued condescension (eg, see your comment above) and disproportionate self-boasting 2: your points are off-base and out of touch

Your "counsel" comes off as self-help cheese, made more so by the fact that you obviously don't think it is and will probably attack me now for saying so.

No one in this thread has agreed with you. Perhaps you should help yourself by removing these threads, because it's doing all harm and no good for you. Right now, you're being marked as "that guy" to avoid like the plague, inviting a fury of digital jabs and knees to the groin. Frankly, I can't see how you can stomach it...oh wait. And now, I think your entire profile is a troll. Hmmm.

Though I don't know a thing about you, nor wish to visit your various links, I'd like to say if you truly are genuine, (and not the troll that I now think your profile is) you should remove yourself from this self-inflicted burning stake, because it will only get hotter from here.

[[deleted user]]

Jim wrote: "Unfortunately, this discussion thread is slowly but surely devolving into a spitting match. Opinion and emotion occasionally replace fact and logic.

The final outcome of a spitting match is alway..."

Disagree, Jim. Trying to determine whether a person is genuine or simply another charlatan preying on naive new writers is a legitimate argument to make. So far, his responses have told me that he's hiding from that discussion. I get nothing else out of it.

[Martyn]

I haven't seen any counsel, so far. Unless you consider it counsel to learn from A.K.'s mistakes.

[Heather]

A.K. has rated 123 books and given 99% of them five stars. Oh, and a few of those five-star ratings included his own books. Do authors REALLY do that? Yikes. A.K., you should take Quoleena's advice...

[A.K.]

Martyn V. (aka Baron Sang-Froid) wrote: "What you are doing a veiled form of spam..."

113 views and counting! Most successful spam I'm sure you've encountered or been an accessory to, yeah?

[A.K.]

Quoleena wrote: "No one in this thread has agreed with you..."

Agreed with me? The post is akin to a public service announcement (PSA) for struggling writer's. What is there to agree with, ma'am?

[Martyn]

Ken wrote: "So far, we've established only that he's hiding from that discussion."

Not if you read the other threads as well. A.K. seems to have a copy/paste answer for every 'opposition' by claiming they are 'angsty' and frustrated about their own lack of success.

I can only assume that A.K. meant to drive traffic to his own websites by starting a discussion with an extremely biased title to draw responses. Every response made to these threads puts his thread at the top.

And that is also a marketing strategy: it doesn't matter if they talk about you positively or negatively, as long as they're talking about you.

And that is not actually true. If people talk about an author in a negative sense, their reputation can be shot down, especially if the arguments are founded in fact.

This thread is just thinly veiled self-promotion under the guise of a 'discussion'. However, we're the only posters actually discussing anything. A.K. is just copy/pasting responses.

[Quoleena]

Yep. A.K. is a troll, all right. No doubt about it. So, now I bid this thread adieu.

[A.K.]

Ken wrote: "Disagree, Jim. Trying to determine whether a person is genuine or simply another charlatan preying on naive new writers is a legitimate argument to make. So far, his responses have told me that he's hiding from that discussion. I get nothing else out of it..."

Naive new writers? What the...

[A.K.]

Martyn V. (aka Baron Sang-Froid) wrote: "I haven't seen any counsel, so far. Unless you consider it counsel to learn from A.K.'s mistakes."

However you slice it... something is being learned, yeah?

[Mellie]

You can flag the OP as spam and hope GR will deal with this issue of spamming numerous groups with obvious self promotional material.

[A.K.]

Heather wrote: "A.K. has rated 123 books and given 99% of them five stars. Oh, and a few of those five-star ratings included his own books. Do authors REALLY do that? Yikes. A.K., you should take Quoleena's advice..."

Yes, ma'am!

[Martyn]

A.K. wrote: "Martyn V. (aka Baron Sang-Froid) wrote: "What you are doing a veiled form of spam..."

113 views and counting! Most successful spam I'm sure you've encountered or been an accessory to, yeah?"

Actually, now that you admitted to spamming this board: Spam rarely works, and never for authors.

This is a website for readers. Authors are guests, and should behave like guests.

What you're doing is entering a party with a condescending attitude and the aim to promote yourself. That marks you as a spamming troll, and there's no faster way to get yourself a bad reputation.

Getting a lot of views is not a big deal. And spamming these boards will not generate sales or get you a publishing contract. Don't forget, these boards are also read by acquisition editors in trade publishing. Even if your writing is up to par, spamming public forums is frowned upon and no trade publishing house wants to be associated with authors who don't know how to behave themselves in public.

[[deleted user]]

Actually I don't think this thread should be flagged as spam. It's pretty self-explanatory, and expository, and the more people who read this the better.

[Martyn]

A.K. wrote: "Martyn V. (aka Baron Sang-Froid) wrote: "I haven't seen any counsel, so far. Unless you consider it counsel to learn from A.K.'s mistakes."

However you slice it... something is being learned, yeah?"

Is this your preferred method of learning? To me, this is like learning about electricity by licking an outlet.

[Martyn]

Ken wrote: "Actually I don't think this thread should be flagged as spam. It's pretty self-explanatory, and expository, and the more people who read this the better."

Indeed. It's highly educational in the sense of 'America's Funniest Home Videos'. That way, new authors joining these boards will see how spamming and self-promoting is often counterproductive.

[A.K.]

Martyn V. (aka Baron Sang-Froid) wrote: "Actually, now that you admitted to spamming this board: Spam rarely works, and never for authors..."

113 views and counting! Most successful spam I'm sure you've encountered or been an accessory to,..."

Being facetious is not an admission of guilt towards the bogus claim of being a spammer. People that don't like what they hear over social media platforms always use the sword of spam as a defense and the added campaign of having the post removed altogether. How's that going by the way?

[A.K.]

Ken wrote: "Actually I don't think this thread should be flagged as spam. It's pretty self-explanatory, and expository, and the more people who read this the better."

I wholly agree, Ken!

[A.K.]

Martyn V. (aka Baron Sang-Froid) wrote: "To me, this is like learning about electricity by licking an outlet..."

You have never licked an outlet to be able to give such an comparison. If you have, please tell me you have video?

[Gisela]

Going back to the original topic:

One of the main problems with publishers is that they think (and in a way have to think) in terms of dollars; they always want to cut costs. In 1988 my husband and I published an aerial photography book about Vienna (this is NOT SPAM, the book is out of print and was published in Austria only). I was the designer of the book and insisted on a slipcase, since it is my opinion that every expensive coffee table book should have one. A fitting slipcase completes the book. The publisher we wanted to work with fought with me over this topic. While I wanted a laminated slipcase, he saw it “regular slipcase for 30 cents vs. laminated slipcase for $5.00”; he was fighting about $4.70 per unit. Since we could not come to an agreement, my husband and I decided to self publish. The book went on to be a great success. Beyond that, in 2001, when Bill Clinton visited Vienna, the organization who invited him wanted to give Bill Clinton a keepsake, something that would remind him of Vienna. They picked our book. Considering that the gift was Bill Clinton, they could have picked anything… music collections, a collector’s item from the famous Augarten porcelain collection, etc… but they picked this book, which was not only informative but also beautiful. Long story short, the publisher’s opinion, that the book did not “need” an expensive slipcase (at $5.00) was wrong. Sometimes (maybe even “quite often”) the creator/author knows best. This was my first book and I never tried to find a publisher again. Working with a publisher may work out fine if you are Bill Clinton and want to publish “My Life”, but if you aren’t it can be difficult.

[A.K.]

Gisela wrote: "Going back to the original topic..."

Gisela, thanks for trying to get back to the original topic, but these people are waging a campaign that, on the face of it, is quite interesting. I, however, see your point and would further stress that control over ones writing career begins when the first letter hits the page in front of you. After that, you're not traveling down the yellow brick road toward an inevitable and prosperous destination, but in fact are stuck in a labyrinth unlike anything a person will ever encounter.

[A.]

I should have checked in with this thread earlier; looks like it's devolving a bit. I'm planning to self-publish a novel online this coming year, and I realize that means I have to do my own marketing, etc. I did investigate traditional publishing but this is the option that feels like the best fit for me right now. And that's not to say that I wouldn't go with a traditional publisher at some point in the future. I keep getting the impression that all of this is complicated at best and that different authors are going to be happy with different arrangements.

[Martyn]

A.K. wrote: "Gisela, thanks for trying to get back to the original topic, but these people are waging a campaign that, on the face of it, is quite interesting."

I think 'these people' actually consider your spamming to be 'waging a campaign'. A self-promoting campaign that seems to be backfiring. Are you trying to maneuver yourself into a position of being overwhelmed by the sudden opposition to your spamfest? Is this the part where you're going to whine about being wrongfully persecuted for speaking your mind?

Because I haven't seen anything beyond your stale copy/paste rhetoric and self-aggrandizing that actually shows a desire to engage in a meaningful discussion on the pros and cons of trade publishing.

[Martyn]

Anna wrote: "I should have checked in with this thread earlier; looks like it's devolving a bit. I'm planning to self-publish a novel online this coming year, and I realize that means I have to do my own marketing..."

It does, but just take care not to take any pointers from A.K.

There are successful self-publishers who share real insight into building an audience, like David Gaughran and Hugh Howey.

[Gisela]

Anna wrote: "I should have checked in with this thread earlier; looks like it's devolving a bit. I'm planning to self-publish a novel online this coming year, and I realize that means I have to do my own market..."

My personal opinion about working with a publisher is simple. It can be compared to a marriage. Maybe you'll still be together in 30 years and have produced some beautiful offspring. And, maybe you'll wonder how'd you come up with the idea to "get married" already one month later. In both scenarios you are 'connected' with a legal contract, thus we need to choose well.

[Martyn]

The measure of success for many writers is how they are validated. Many feel validated if/when a trade publisher expresses interest in publishing their work. However, a trade publisher is a company, and companies need profit to remain in existence (and prosper), so their interest has less to do with 'quality' but rather with a minimum of quality + commercial viability. So if your work is of high quality, but not commercially viable (for whatever reason), a trade publisher still won't take you on.
Or you can be established in another trade (music/television) and express the desire to publish a book and a trade publisher will jump at signing a contract with you, because even a low quality book would be commercially viable as you have an existing fan base.

I've been offered several trade publishing contracts, but they were either too boilerplate (restrictive clauses I couldn't change because I don't have clout) or the publishers didn't share my vision of the work (i.e. they wanted to change my books beyond the point of integrity). So I self-published.
I have my validation (they wouldn't have offered me contracts if my work wasn't commercially viable), but my true validation comes from the positive reviews and feedback my work has received. I've started writing stories I wanted to read but couldn't find. It's immensely satisfying that other people enjoy them too.

I've come across a fair number of mid-list authors who have been 'released from their contract' (i.e. fired because the sales were lower than expected), who know how the publishing industry works and choose to self-publish their formerly trade-published titles.

The bias towards self or trade publishing shouldn't rest on public opinion, but on private contemplation. If a writer wants to trade published, they should follow that path. If they want to be self published, they should follow the other path. Both paths have their pros and cons, both have their risks and rewards. It's good to keep an open mind in these matters. I've been offered boilerplate contracts that I didn't like, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't consider a trade publishing contract that has better terms and clauses.

[Christine]

Martyn V. (aka Baron Sang-Froid) wrote: "The measure of success for many writers is how they are validated. Many feel validated if/when a trade publisher expresses interest in publishing their work. However, a trade publisher is a company..."

Nicely explained Martyn. Its an old subject and you covered the options well.

[Christine]

A.K. You seem to feel this thread, and the others just like it, are an accomplishment and have provided a measure of activity and "notice" you would not have received otherwise.

As a reader who truly hates being spammed, you need to understand that this kind of spamming is one of several reasons, I and other readers keep DO-NOT-READ lists. Your attitude and unique spamming has possibly earned your books space on quite a few. I know they're now on mine.

It always amazes me when authors forget that this site has 30 million members and the huge majority are readers - smart, intelligent readers.

[Theresa]

Martyn V. (aka Baron Sang-Froid) wrote: "The measure of success for many writers is how they are validated. Many feel validated if/when a trade publisher expresses interest in publishing their work. However, a trade publisher is a company..."

You have constructed a very well done post explaining an author's options and the pros and cons of both.

I have learned that promoting my books is not always easy, but I am still trying to learn the best ways to do so. I am happy with my decision to self-publish even if I am not noticed overnight. Most people who have found success in their lines of work put in a lot of hard work and determination even when it seemed easier to give up.

[Martyn]

Theresa wrote: "You have constructed a very well done post explaining an author's options and the pros and cons of both."

The main problem rests in the 'Us vs. Them' attitude fostered by people on either side of the fence. For a long time, self-publishing was associated with vanity publishing, where you pay a printer to make books for you that you'd have to sell from the trunk of your car. Even vanity publishing is not always a measure of (lack of) quality.

James Redfield, the author of The Celestine Prophecies, started with selling his own books from the trunk of his car, because no publisher was interested in his work. The Celestine Prophecies and the sequels/workbook were a huge hit and were eventually picked up by a publisher. However, before they were picked up by a publisher, no publisher was interested. Not because the quality lacked, but because they didn't think the books were commercially viable. As soon as public opinion differed from their perspective and the books started selling, the publishers jumped on the bandwagon.

Trade publishers, especially in these times with bookstores closing due to the flagging economy, are extremely conservative in signing new authors. And while a minimum of quality is required, the most important factor is commercial viability. A self-publisher can work with a narrow margin and a slim overhead, but a publisher had offices and staff who all need to be paid. That's also why the actual provider of the content (the author) gets only 8-12% royalties (print books).

The quality/commercial viability issue can be dangerous for authors. Just because a publisher deems a book not commercially viable doesn't mean the book lacks quality. A famous example is John Kennedy Toole's A Confederacy of Dunces. JKT spent years trying to get a publisher interested in his manuscript, but his book was rejected so many time that his depression was exacerbated and Toole killed himself. His mother fished the manuscript from the trash and spent 10 years flogging the manuscript on uninterested publishers. When finally one publisher took a chance (probably to shut her up), the book won the Pulitzer Prize for Fiction.

So you need to believe in yourself and not let a rejection about your books 'lacking commercial mass appeal' make you doubt the quality of your writing.

[Martyn]

On the flipside, self-publishing is incredibly hard to do. The hardest thing is not getting the book published. The hardest thing is marketing and promoting yourself. Gaining exposure in a flood of 350,000 books published annually.

I despair at it, often. I have trouble getting traction and having to do everything from Amsterdam, not being able to visit the various writer conferences. Most effective promotion is word of mouth, but despite having 400 subscribers to my blog and fans waiting for my next book, I don't get the sales my books warrant.

I've been able to float my boat because I got severance pay from my ex-employer, but that has stopped. So if my sales don't pick up, I'll have to get another job supplementing my wife's full-time job. And that will result in less time for writing and longer periods of waiting between new book releases.

I'll be trying to get my stand-alone novel into Kindle Scout, see if that gets me some traction, but my lacking sales confirm that quality writing is not enough.

[[deleted user]]

I think that problem afflicts all self-published writers, made worse, I think, by Kindle Unlimited, which really cheapens writing and makes it unprofitable for all but hobbyists. My sales on Amazon went to zero after KU was introduced. I thought it was because my current books had run their course, peaked out, and dropped. I'll find out if that's the case when I publish my new novel in January, but it seems likely that if KU remains popular the writing industry will be ruined except for those lucky few who can break out of obscurity.

[Martyn]

Did you check out Kindle Scout, Ken? Kind of 'Idols for authors', but I'm willing to chance it with a standalone novel.

[[deleted user]]

Not everyone can make it to the big leagues. Somebody has to play in the minors. That's the way I look at it. As a self-published author I sometimes feel like a guy opening up a little pizza shop, willing to pour all his blood, sweat, and tears into its success. And I believe if I keep working on it, maybe I'll get my chance someday. Maybe I'll get called up to the majors. Of course, on other days I just feel like I got ran over by a truck. And the only thing that keeps me going is that I really love what I am doing. I would rather write than complain.

[[deleted user]]

Martyn V. (aka Baron Sang-Froid) wrote: "Did you check out Kindle Scout, Ken? Kind of 'Idols for authors', but I'm willing to chance it with a standalone novel."

I'll see how well my new novel fares; the old one died even with good reviews. I think my niche is pretty limited anyway: Science Fiction in the classic style, no zombies, vampires, werewolves, bad-ass aliens, or unexplained magic. But I'll be open to new ways of marketing if things don't change. In the meantime, my best bet is just to keep writing the stuff I like, and put more books out there. The new one does have potential to become a series.

[[deleted user]]

Seems that a new ALL-CAPS topic has opened up under the Bulletin topic. Wherever you see all caps, you'll probably find our friend A.K.