Embassytown - Whole Book, spoilers ok

[Bretnie]

Let's talk about this wild book! We'll use this thread for discussions about anything in the book - spoilers ok!

What did you think?

[Mark]

Ah HAH! In "Part 4/ Formerly, 4," we see that the simile of Avice Brenner Cho (A.B.C.) is a "Rosetta Stone" for the plot of Embassytown.

Avice is among other similes at a cafe, "The Cravat," where she gets an insight into how her simile is used by the Hosts: "...spoke me to imply potential change." She is "The girl who ate what was given her, " -- AS the Arieki took the connection to the Out given them by the Terre explorers in the first place, and later in the book, the ability to speak what was not.

Unfortunately for this post, I've got the audiobook version, which is essentially impossible to skim for details. Avice's simile has two parts, but I can't find a reference to the second part. My memory says that she ate what was given her, AND wasn't harmed by it. That would fit with the Arieki use of her simile to refer to "making do," or improvising. They have had to do a lot of that to cope with the culture and innovations following their contact with the cultures of the Out.

And indeed, the Arieki indeed "make do" with the innovations to their thought brought by EzRa to a catastrophic extent. It is that making do that is detailed in the events of the second half of the book.

[Whitney]

Mark, here's the complete simile as it was first presented:

"There was a human girl who in pain ate what was given her in an old room built for eating in which eating had not happened for a time."

[Mark]

Correction: my audiobook TOC is dramatically different from the print version (???). The scene I'm writing about is 38.3% in -- somewhere in Part 3. I think it's still "Formerly, 4." sigh

Whitney, thanks for the full simile. Where did you find it?

The audiobook is nicely done, but it's NOT for careful analysis.

[Whitney]

The full simile is in the early chapter "0.2", right after Avice is made a simile.

I listened to the audiobook as well. I agree, audiobooks don't work for me with text that needs analysis. Happily, I have the ebook as well, so can go back and search for text and some of the more complex scenes.

I liked how Avice's growth mirrored the growth of her simile, as LeGuin touched on in her review. In retrospect, the ideas were there the entire time. Since Avice IS a simile, she is essentially already a metaphor. There is also discussion of how her simile has a complexity lacking in others, with a nuance that means the Hosts are already close to being able to express contradictory meanings with it. In the same way, Avice already posses the qualities that will take her from being a largely disengaged 'floaker' to being a leader and innovator.

[Bretnie]

Sounds like the Parts are different in the audio vs print! In print, Part 4 starts after the Festival of Lies roughly halfway through the book.

We learn that some of the Hosts have learned to lie, and most of the Host are now addicted to EzRa speaking. And it really shifts the tone and feel of the rest of the book!

I was fascinated by Avice. She doesn't have a formal job or role when she returns, just this fame for being a simile. But she's such a crucial part of the story and the turning points in the second half. Whitney, I like your analysis of her own growth vs growth of her a simile.

[Mark]

Bretnie, I agree that seeing Avice grow, and seeing the reasons behind her surprising status on Arieka is involving and intuitively understandable.

Yes, the tone of second half makes a huge shift. Miéville often winds up his elaborate world-building with a series of big bangs. In a few of the novels, notably Scar and Kraken, that's all there is. In Embassytown, there are larger resolutions that evolve.

I would love the see more stories in the China Miéville universe. What was first contact like for the Terre explorers to Arieka? How would even the idea of the ambassadors be conceived? How was Embassytown constructed, with its faux ruins and elaborate Host-enabled life support? What was Avice's first (or second, or third) marriage like?

[Scott]

I have read Perdido Street Station and The Scar by the Miéville and was excited to try another book outside of that particular world. I’m glad I joined this group and this being one of the first books up for nomination since I joined.

I agree with Mark and am interested in this particular universe Miéville has created because there are quite a few interesting avenues to explore. The immer itself and the infinite possibilities that opens up would be extremely interesting. Miéville’s imagination boggles my mind in a good way.

I don’t typically read Science Fiction, or at least haven’t in the past 20 years, but I will definitely look to read more by Miéville.

[Bretnie]

Excellent questions Mark, very thought-provoking. I kind of like that Mieville left so many things about this world a mystery, but I'm also very curious how the Host-enabled life support came into being also. That aspect didn't really sink in until it was all crumbling.

Scott, how did this one compare to The Scar and Perdido Street Station for you?

I've only read The City and the City and it's tough to compare the two, but with both I'm impressed with the world building.

[Mark]

I thought TCATC was a brilliant exploration of tabu. CM's "unseen" brought our current treatment of the homeless on our streets to mind. I'd rate Embassytown above it, though, for the mixture of personal and global tragedy.

[Mark]

CM's treatment of Ehrsul, on the other hand, left me feeling frustrated. It looks like Avise tried to get back in touch, but only through Spanish Dancer, at which point Ehrsul couldn't connect to any message coming from a Host. I guess she's no C3-P0. Oh well, perhaps that's what volume two will cover.

[Bretnie]

I never felt that strongly either way about Ehrsul. There were so many back-stabbing relationships in the book that Avice's relationship with Ehrsul got kind of lost in the mix.

How about Bren as a character? I really liked the way his role in the story evolved. And the other ambassadors who had lost their counterpoints.

[Mark]

Bren as Obi-Wan Kenobi?

A totally different book that looks into the divide between awareness and language is A Thousand Days of Wonder: A Scientist's Chronicle of His Daughter's Developing Mind In it, Fernyhough tries to get into the mind of a pre-language infant. It's a wonderful book. Perhaps the Arieki were "stuck" in a more competent evolution of that swimming swirl of matter and sensation seen by the (human) infant.

[Mark]

For those that enjoyed this discussion, there's another one from seven years ago as well:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/group...

[Mark]

... and in that, Natalia includes a quote that partially explains Ehrsul:

But what they realize is that you cannot always preserve the 'old ways', that change can be inevitable, and that moving forward, even though scary and uncertain, does not have to mean the end of the world - even though those we love can be left behind, just like Ehrsul.

Ehrsul was programmed in the reality of the Embassytown of Avise's youth, and her limits of perceptions are "hard wired," and so must she must be left behind as the world changes.[

[Whitney]

Thanks for sharing that, Mark. One of the things I think I missed in the audiobook was exactly what happened to cause the complete distancing between Avise and Ehrsul. I think Natalia's analysis captures it. The last we see of Ehrsul, after refusing to come out of her room during the upheaval, is her insistence that she cannot communicate with Spanish Dancer, because Ariekei can't speak anything but Language. She can't make the leap. She is one of the 'childish things' that Avise had to leave behind.

[Emmeline]

I read the Ehrsul thread as a sign that Avice is developing, from somebody fundamentally unengaged with the world around her, who can claim apparently without irony that her best friend is a computer, to somebody who has transcended that side of herself and realized that she needs to communicate with living beings. Which is similar to what you're saying, but I felt it was meant to show more about Avice than Ehrsul herself.

[Bretnie]

Those are great thoughts Mark, Whitney, and Emily.

We haven't talked yet about the Ariekei's kicking their addiction. What did you think about Avice's methods? To me, it felt so rushed when everything else had been dragged out so much. Quick, teach the Ariekei to lie and then the war will be over!

I did like how that ended up playing out with the Ariekei, spreading their new awareness to each other.

[Emmeline]

I generally thought the second half was a bit weak ... or maybe weak is not the word but it didn't play to my preferences. Scile and Cal became a bit cardboard cut-out villains, and the "solution" was, I agree, rushed and a bit strained. And the denouement was just boring.

I thought it was a pity to create that world and then just blow everything up. Maybe that's a bit Scile-ish of me!

[Bretnie]

Emily wrote: "I generally thought the second half was a bit weak ... or maybe weak is not the word but it didn't play to my preferences. Scile and Cal became a bit cardboard cut-out villains, and the "solution" ..."

Ha! Was Scile coming back a surprise to anyone? I feel like they set us up to know he wasn't dead, but for some reason I didn't expect his actions. I'm not sure why I thought better of him, even after the Festival of Lies?

[Emmeline]

Bretnie wrote: "Ha! Was Scile coming back a surprise to anyone? I feel like they set us up to know he wasn't dead"

Yes, I generally assume if there's no body then someone isn't dead (and even then sometimes!) but I thought there was a missed opportunity to make him more complex. I would have welcomed his understanding that nothing is static and change is necessary developing, OR for the other characters to have mourned the loss of Ariekei culture a bit more in parallel to him.

[Sue]

Just finished the book.

Jumping in on the Scile discussion, I noticed that Avice relied heavily on Scile's notes to reach her conclusion. Clearly Scile himself reached the opposite conclusion. Another example of the characters not understanding or listening to each other.

I also had some thoughts on how the Ariekei's thoughts and words were so intertwined. Essentially change one and you change the other.

I read an article a long time ago (sorry I don't have the reference) that followed the evolution of former British colonies. The British tradition of "democracy" was certainly not practiced in the British Empire. But concepts like democracy and self-determination hitchhiked along with the English language, eventually leading to bids for independence. The article held up India, currently the world's largest democracy, as an example where words and ideas grew hand-in-hand. I saw parallels with the Ariekei transformation. They learned new ways to communicate and think at the same time - and the result was a complete re-invention of their society.

I also saw parallels in how Western exploration of the New World led to unintentional mass extinction of indigenous people. I was saddened by the addiction of the Ariekei. It wasn't something the Ariekei chose for themselves and they were forced to drastic measures to rid themselves of the results. In the face of what they went through, I was surprised at the end that everyone was working together and getting along. That part didn't really ring true to me.

[Suki]

I liked this book a lot-- I especially enjoyed the worldbuilding aspect, and I found the Ambassadors fascinating. The section detailing the breeding and nurseries of the Ambassadors reminded me of Brave New World. My favorite Miéville is The City & the City. I also really liked Perdido Street Station-- I want to reread that one soon so that I can read the sequels.

[Bretnie]

Thank you all for joining this discussion! It's a book that had been on my list for a while, and was definitely made better by everyone's thoughtful insights.