Bleak House, Part III

[☯Emily , moderator]

This is the place we can discuss chapters 33-49.

[Henry]

Chapter 35. The nature of Esther's illness: (view spoiler)[ Esther gets better and finds that all the mirrors have been hidden because she is disfigured by her illness. This would suggest small pox although Dickens never actually states that to be the case. So I googled Esther's Illness. Here is a preview to a scholarly article written on the matter. I don't have the 40 dollars to download the article so we will have to glean was is given free on the first page:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10...

I then found another article and began to read it.

CAUTION SPOILERS!

I found two spoilers in the first couple paragraphs and quit reading it. Access this article only if you do not care about spoilers

http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/u...

In any event the first article gives some compelling reasons why it would not be small pox. Is this a case of Dickens just being sloppy about the description of the disease, or is he being purposefully vague? Keep them guessing. (hide spoiler)]

[Henry]

Chapter 36 Esther's roots (view spoiler)[ Esther finally learns of her mother and the circumstance of her birth from indeed none less than her mother, Lady Dedlock.

Esther then descends into a bit of a I should not be alive funk and is grateful that the disfigurement from her illness would help hide her mother's identity. Pocking from small pox generally would not so disfigure a person as to hide a familial resemblance. But again, I think this may be more sloppiness than some function to the story.

Esther's immediate feelings of this being her fault, her shame are most unfortunate. I thought it ironic that the character that personifies the most good and common sense in this story should be wracked with guilt over her birth.

Fortunately she rapidly realizes her good fortune and the love of her friends and decides not to allow guilt and shame to define her. Our little woman returns. (hide spoiler)]

[RitaSkeeter]

Re your first comment Henry - (view spoiler)[ Interesting. I had always thought it was smallpox but I'm not sure now how I came to that conclusion. I'm not sure the author of the article convinces me otherwise with her one page, as it is not unknown for writers to play with facts so they fit more neatly into a plot. (hide spoiler)]

Re your second comment - (view spoiler)[ Point taken that smallpox wouldn't reduce resemblance, but I wondered whether Esther meant this as now when anyone looks at her all they see are the smallpox scars, and they don't see beyond those to see Esther herself. (hide spoiler)]

[Henry]

RitaSkeeter wrote: "Re your first comment Henry -

Re your second comment - "

(view spoiler)[ Fair points both. Alas, unlike Mr. Skimpole who would simply borrow $40 to buy the full article, then default on loan, I shall have to defer to the arguments on the first page and leave the question not fully answered. I shall read the second website after I finish the book. As Mr Snagsby would say, without putting too fine a point on it, it probably was intended to be small pox but the exact disease is of little importance. The implication was that the disease did affect Esther's appearance and not for the good.

I wonder if this article is not a thesis paper. Sometimes theses are solutions in search of virgin problems. Esther's illness hardly seems important enough to devote a 34 page article. It is certainly not important enough to part with $40. (hide spoiler)]

[Henry]

Chapter 38 (view spoiler)[ Mr Guppy certainly retracted his offer of marriage in short order upon Esther raising her veil. Oily S.O.B.

I was somewhat amused with the repeated return trips to catch Esther in the street when they were leaving. (hide spoiler)]

[Henry]

Chapter 39 (view spoiler)[ Mr. Vholes is a real dynamo. Richard should feel secure in the judgement coming soon with Vholes' shoulder to the wheel. (hide spoiler)]

[Henry]

Chapter 40 and 41 (view spoiler)[I am not sure what Tulkinghorn's game is. He tells this "story" which is not even thinly veiled to the entire household in Chapter 40. With the nature of gossip how long do you suppose it will take for someone to put two and two together. So it appears that he is forcing Lady Dedlock's hand.

So Chapter 41, Lady Dedlock informs Tulkinghorn that she is leaving. She will not take any jewels, clothes, or wealth and will drift off into the night and never be seen again. Her desire is to limit the shame that she would bring on Sir Leicester and Chesney Wold. Tulkinghorn then informs her that no, she will not leave. She will stay put because Tulkinghorn fears what her leaving will do to Sir Leicester. Fine. Why tell the story to the whole damned house? He could have confronted Lady Dedlock in private and put her on notice that this is the way game will be played. That would slow the gossip mill down considerably. So I am a little mystified by Tulkinghorn's actions.

He seems to have no feeling for her as head of the house, only for Sir Leicester, yet he also seems to admire her steely nature.

Lady Dedlock's personae has grown immensely in this story. Remember when she was first introduced back in chapter 2, she was depicted as a very bored and vain 19th century fashionista who moved from Chesney Wold to London to Paris and back and had something of a following of fashionable hangers-on. She was actually to some degree controlled by her own staff:

...there is this remarkable circumstance to be noted in everything associated with my Lady Dedlock as one of a class – as one of the leaders and representatives of her little world. She supposes herself to be an inscrutable Being, quite out of the reach and ken of ordinary mortals – seeing herself in her glass, where indeed she looks so. Yet, every dim little star revolving about her, from her maid to the manager of the Italian Opera, knows her weaknesses, prejudices, follies, haughtinesses, and caprices; and lives upon as accurate a calculation and as nice a measure of her moral nature, as her dress-maker takes of her physical proportions. Is a new dress, a new custom, a new singer, a new dancer, a new form of jewellery, a new dwarf or giant, a new chapel, a new anything, to be set up? There are deferential people, in a dozen callings, whom my Lady Dedlock suspects of nothing but prostration before her, who can tell you how to manage her as if she were a baby; who do nothing but nurse her all their lives; who, humbly affecting to follow with profound subservience, lead her and her whole troop after them; who, in hooking one, hook all and bear them off, as Lemuel Gulliver bore away the stately fleet of the majestic Lilliput.

Dickens, Charles (2003-03-27). Bleak House (Penguin Classics) (p. 10). Penguin Books Ltd. Kindle Edition.

I think that knowing Esther is her daughter has vastly improved Lady Dedlock's moral character and understanding of life. (hide spoiler)]

[Henry]

Chapter 42 (view spoiler)[ What is up with Mademoiselle Hortense? Is she just crazy or does she have some genuine threat up her sleeve? Tulkinghorn is not one to be trifled with.

Is all this over Lady Dedlock favoring Rosa?

(hide spoiler)]

[Lyndi (mibookobsession)]

Chapter 34: As I'm reading about Grandfather Smallweed, I'm picturing the old creaky banker from Mary Poppins. Same wobbly posture and stingy attitude. Just a funny observation I thought I'd share.

[Rebecca]

Through chapter 36:

Aha! (view spoiler)[ Poor Ester being confronted by Lady Dedlock crying and confessing to be her mother. I can't imagine being stopped and give this shock! And then when her mother says she can never see her and it must stay a secret for her husband's sake. I can understand why she goes through a period of wishing she was never born. However, I'm glad the people around her are so nice and express their appreciation of her. (hide spoiler)]

Henry wrote "In any event the first article gives some compelling reasons why it would not (view spoiler)[ be small pox. Is this a case of Dickens just being sloppy about the description of the disease, or is he being purposefully vague? Keep them guessing. (hide spoiler)]

I have a feeling he's being purposefully vague. It seems like he is more interested in Ester being sick and the outcome of it, more than the specific illness itself.

[Rebecca]

Through chapter 38

Richard is getting on my nerves. (view spoiler)[ I understand that he is stressed about the law suit and he really wants the money he believes is his. However, I can't believe he is suspicious of Jarndyce and think he is trying to sabatogue Richard and Ada. Jarndyce seems like the most honest and kindest person in the book (looking out for many of the characters so far). I also blame Skimpole for aiding in Richard's mindset because he is so good at manipulating people. I'm glad Ada and Ester stood up to Richard and defended Jarndyce.


Poor poor Ester! Her face was disfigured from her illness and then she had to deal with Guppy's spluttering and choking when he saw her! He could not make it any more clear that he had no interest in marrying her anymore and she should absolutely put it out of her mind! (hide spoiler)]

[Rebecca]

Chapter 41

(view spoiler)[
The nerve of Mr. Taulkinghorn!! He first told everyone Lady Dedlock's secret story then confronted her. He didn't want her to leave to "protect her husband", but more likely he wants to blackmail her. I have a feeling she is not going to take this lying down. (hide spoiler)]

[☯Emily , moderator]

Chapter 36: After this, I am taking a small hiatus from BH, but will be back! (view spoiler)[Lady Dedlock has a least cleared up one mystery about Mr. Tulkinghorn. I was unsure whether or not he was working for Lady Dedlock in order to find her child. Apparently, he has a more devious motive in discovering her secret. BTW, does anyone think Lady Dedlock might have had something to do with Krook's spontaneous combustion? (hide spoiler)]

[Rebecca]

Chapter 42:

Henry - (view spoiler)[ I agree with you that I'm confused about the whole Mrs. Hortense business. She says she hates Lady Dedlock, but I don't understand why she is threatening Tulkinghorn. (hide spoiler)]

[Henry]

☯Emily wrote: "Chapter 36: After this, I am taking a small hiatus from BH, but will be back! [spoilers removed]"

In the real world (view spoiler)[ I would think very much that Krook was the victim of foul play. In Chapter 29, Guppy visits Lady Dedlock and tells her about the letters which he is to acquire shortly. The chapter ends with Lady Dedlock's exclamation to herself "oh my child...not dead."

So Lady Dedlock would certainly have motive. However, I think Lady Dedlock would also have a distinct interest in seeing the letters and possibly acquiring them. Tulkinghorn however, who seems to have Sir Leicester's interest at heart, may want the letters destroyed and a babbling drunk of an old man with them, but that makes no sense in that he later black mails Mr. George through Smallweed for a sample of the writing.

The one article you referenced made note of Dickens having a on going dispute with a scientist regarding spontaneous human combustion, and my copy of Bleak House which has extensive notes and preface (which I have not read to avoid spoilers) but I did notice a section on spontaneous combustion. I think Dickens' intention was that Mr Krook did indeed die of spontaneous combustion.

Tulkinghorn, I do not trust. I think he does have Sir Leicester's best interest at heart, but I think he will also crush anyone who represents a threat to Sir Leicester. If Tulkinghorn was convinced that these letters seeing the light of day would in someway damage Sir Leicester, I am sure that he would take action to prevent that. But how would Tulkinghorn know of the existence of the letters? I can't remember Bucket knowing anything about them. What about Snagsby? This book is too complex for my crappy memory. Certainly Lady Dedlock did not tell Tulkinghorn of Mr. Guppy getting these letters. (hide spoiler)]

[Henry]

RebeccaS wrote: "Chapter 42:

Henry - [spoilers removed]"

Agreed, (view spoiler)[ Hortense's behavior is very confusing. (hide spoiler)]

[Henry]

Chapter 44 (view spoiler)[ There is something a bit creepy about Mr. Jarndyce asking for Esther's hand in marriage to our modern perspective, robbing the cradle are we? Yet I think that back at that time it was very common for older men to marry very young women, especially due female mortality due to complications with childbirth.

It seems though that in Mr Jarndyce's case that he genuinely loves Esther and is not simply procuring a wife appliance guaranteed to outlive him. Her beauty being destroyed is of no consequence to him and perhaps he feels that in a way it gave him an opportunity with Esther that he would not have ordinarily been at liberty to pursue.

Dickens indicates that Esther has very mixed emotions about this through her tears. I don't think that she particularly cared about Mr. Guppy's horrid reaction, but I think she is aware that her prospects for marriage are somewhat in question.

Is this Dickens' lesson that beauty is only skin deep? Jarndyce certainly thinks the world of Esther. (hide spoiler)]

[Rebecca]

Chapter 44

(view spoiler)[
Well I am SHOCKED that Jarndyce wants to marry Ester. I am trying not to be creeped out by the age difference and the fact that he has been like a father to Ester. But it might take some time. Couldn't he just adopt her as a daughter? And she wants to marry him to thank him for taking care of her? Strange to me and even to her!! It doesn't even seem like she wants to marry him that much. (hide spoiler)]

[Rebecca]

Henry - (view spoiler)[ I didn't think about the fact that Dickens might be trying to show that despite Ester's illness' scars, Jarndyce still loves her. If he is trying to show that beauty is only skin deep then I applaud him and feel much better about the arrangement. (hide spoiler)]

[Rebecca]

Chapter 47-48

(view spoiler)[

Poor Jo! He was dragged into this crazy saga and used as a secret player. I hope he had some happiness at the end.

Also, I don't understand why Lady Dedlock is letting Rosa go all of a sudden and seemingly without caring very much. Maybe she is planning to actually run away from Mr. Taulkinghorn so she wants Rosa to be happy without her.

I'm not at all surprised that Mr. Taulkinghorn is dead. I'm assuming that Lady Dedlock killed him or hired someone to do so, because he kept threatening her about her secret. Also she just happened to be going for some air when he was killed, right after she was confronted.....I guess we can wait and see what comes from this. (hide spoiler)]

[Rebecca]

Chapter 49

(view spoiler)[

Poor George! He was just with Jo as he died and was already upset about that. Then Bucket joins in on the birthday party all chummy and such. And then....he arrests George for the murder of Mr. Taulkinghorn!!! Ugh There is no way George did it. (hide spoiler)]

[Rebecca]

I think I'm going to just push though until the end at this point. I'l wait for the next thread, but I'll keep a note of my comments as I read.

[Henry]

Yeah, I want to get this done too. I am enjoying it but it is starting to get dragged out.

[Henry]

RebeccaS wrote: "Henry - [spoilers removed]"

Chapter 44 (view spoiler)[ I Jarndyce is of two minds in wanting to marry Esther. 1) He regards Esther's loss of beauty as gateway to something that he has probably wanted for a long time but felt that he could not ask of her. But now young men will lose interest in her because of her scars, which is their loss because Esther is a wonderful woman scarred or no.

2) As you note, Jarndyce wants Esther to know that to him she is a lovely woman regardless of the scars. (hide spoiler)]

[Henry]

Chapter 47 (view spoiler)[ I am not sure why an entire chapter was devoted here, other than Dickens doing some social commentary about conditions in many places like Toms All Alone. That and perhaps this was serialized for weekly releases. Dickens I have read was often paid by the word, so there are a lot of them. The Smallweed chapter struck me like that as well. (hide spoiler)]

[Rebecca]

Chapter 47, Henry - (view spoiler)[ I felt the same way about this chapter and a few of the others. These are the ones where I tend to zone out and then I have to go back and re-read and find out I didn't really miss much. Dickens certainly knows how to get his payday! (hide spoiler)]

[Henry]

Chapter 48 (view spoiler)[ Holy mackerel! Tulkinghorn is gone. Like J R Ewing, he was my favorite guy to hate. And not since Who shot J R or maybe Who killed Laura Palmer on Twin Peaks have we such a mystery.

Dickens is giving Mr. George and Lady Dedlock plenty of motive, capability and opportunity. I doubt it to be either. Too obvious. There a plenty of people who would like to see the end of Tulkinghorn. Although no one in particular comes to mind...unless ahhaa! Richard. Yes, what if Richard came upon information that indicated that Tulkinghorn was in some way fiddling with the proceedings on the judgement which he would certainly be capable of doing it it were in his or one of his client's interests. Richard has got a little looney with the expectation of a judgement. There has not been any evidence to that effect and so just wild speculation on my part. It has also been awfully quiet in the Mr. Boythorn arena. He would have animosity with Tulkinghorn over the right of way, and he was involved with Lady Dedlock's sister, Esther's god mother and aunt. Yes Boythorn is on my list of suspects as well. Perhaps he got wind of Tulkinghorn's blackmail of Lady Dedlock. Again there is no evidence to that effect.

That was another thing that I did not quite understand, Lady Dedlock's parting with Rosa. She wanted to spare the girl any possible harm. But why did Tulkinghorn take such offense to that and insist that Lady Dedlock broke her end of their agreement? It did not seem that big of a deal to me. Tulkinghorn stated that he could end the agreement at any time. Why should Lady Dedlock not take an effort to spare Rosa? Tulkinghorn seems to have an irrational streak in him when it comes to control. It is a shame he got murdered, I would have like to see Lady Dedlock bring him down by some other means. (hide spoiler)]

[Henry]

Chapter 49 (view spoiler)[ As soon as I seen Bucket, I knew he was there to arrest Mr. George. Especially when he went out to check for exits in the garden. Pleasant sort though, you have to admit.

The fact that Mr. George took no offense of him being at the Bagnet home to me is evidence that Mr. George knew nothing of the murder. If he did I am sure he would have been on high alert with Bucket presence. (hide spoiler)]

[Rebecca]

Oooh I didn't even think of (view spoiler)[ Richard as a suspect! Like you said, there isn't much evidence, but it could be Dickens' style. Maybe he just wants to shock us and Richard is a main character. (hide spoiler)]

[Henry]

RebeccaS wrote: "Oooh I didn't even think of [spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[ Just speculation on my part, but I really doubt that it will be Lady Dedlock or a killer hired by her. Mr. George, I am convinced is innocent.

Another guy that comes to mind is Mr. Guppy's buddy with the British Beauties...Mr. Jobbing/Weevil. Not that there is any particular reason, but he seemed to get a lot of ink and so far has ended up not doing much of anything.

Also in favor of Richard, he hung around Mr. George for a while when he was outfitting himself for his commission and would know of Mr. George's guns at the shooting gallery....oh wait what about Mr. George's weird employee, Phil. He took a liking to Jo and he might be very angry for Jo's death, which he could blame on Bucket/Tulkinghorn. He seems intensely loyal to Mr. George and would know that Tulkinghorn is the source of many of Mr. George's woes.

(hide spoiler)]

[Henry]

Chapter 48 (view spoiler)[ Another reason I will miss Tulkinghorn, I love the way the narrator of my Audible version does him. Hugh Dickson is the narrator and amazingly he does a different voice for all the characters (how he kept them all straight is beyond me). After you get used to him, he even does the women well. He still has a masculine voice but he puts feminine inflections in his speech. He is a magnificent narrator.

http://www.amazon.com/Bleak-House/dp/...

Note to Kindle owners, if you "buy" the kindle version for $0.00 you can get this Audible version for $2.99 . See the note at Whisper Sync for Voice next to the cover art on the page above. For those with Kindle Fires, you can do the immersion reading.

Yes I know, fine time to tell us now Henry! Chapter 48! I did go back and edit my message (#7) in part 1.

(hide spoiler)]