"2312" by Kim Stanley Robinson (BR)

[Gabi]

Buddy Read for the next one of KSRs solar system colonial novels.
From the blurb it sounds like it is taking place in the universe of his Mars-trilogy.

Please state your chapters or percentages when writing about your impressions and use tags, so that everybody can participate without getting spoiled.

The official beginning is April 20th, but please feel free to write about your experience as soon as you start. We will keep up with you in no time ;).

[Anthony]

I’ll be starting this later today. Am I the only one? Been a while since I’ve been on time for a buddy read. Hope folks will join!

[Dawn F]

I read it only a couple of months ago, so I won’t read it again, but I may glance in on the discussion :D

[Anthony]

Cool!

[Gabi]

I'm reading it, but since I try to stay away from interacting on GR since I don't trust my emotions at the moment I'll be most probably quietly reading comments here, sorry ^^'.

[Anthony]

Understandable! Take good care my friend!

[Jemppu]

I'm reading, too. Just started over again yesterday, since it's been laying idle on the side for so long since I first started it.

Well wishes for you, Gabi <3

[Gabi]

Anthony wrote: "Understandable! Take good care my friend!"

😘

[DivaDiane]

I think I’ll start this one today, since I haven’t settled on anything after This is How You Win the Time War. Yay!! Chances are I won’t be able to keep up, especially now that “school” has started again.

[DivaDiane]

Sorry you aren’t feeling well, Gabi. I had quite the “wobble” (as they say here) on Easter Sunday and didn’t get back on an emotional even keel until a few days later. I’m not getting time to myself, which I desperately need to stay sane. I hope you get what you need to feel better, Gabi.

[Jemppu]

For full disclosure: I've been quite down recently as well, crying my eyes out for just about damn everything and nothing today, and my previous/current other reads have all been so affecting too, that I was a bit doubtful if I might actually have enough sh*ts to give for this one; or to be able to get very involved with it. Masterfully crafted as it must be.

But! This thing has been waiting long enough, and will get read now! *ha*

From last night I can say I was totally awed again by KSR's effective depictions of the grand scope of the planetary landscapes (so succinct: none too overdone grandioseness about the prose). In this case, all the while also constructing a thrilling action moment in the "Wahram and Swan" chapter starting around page 114, (view spoiler)[of the approaching Terminator city on tracks, glimmering in the sun (hide spoiler)]. Gah. Once more I'm imagining a glorious on-screen moment.

The previously familiar alternating tone differences of the interlaid 'info dump' chapters in between the actual plotted story are a nice diversion once again. (And quite hilarious as well: I must admit having had a wry giggle for the momentary aptness of "Lists (4)" chapter for (view spoiler)[throwing an array of mental stages and what not at one's face right then (hide spoiler)] *hah* Appreciated).

For that, the chapter title "Earth, the planet of sadness" also hit home; a mood, eh.


...now, writing all this, dang, if I aren't actually grateful that this BR is here right now; eager to hear read what strikes (or did strike) peoples' fancy with this.

So far, for me, it's been enjoyable enough. Which is a surprise as much as it really is not.

Oh, and the inclusion of the art and music elements into the plot is a thing to appreciate as well (Robinson actually admitted in The Martians, to such classical pieces etc. being a personal soundtrack to writing... which I suspect might be the case here as well).

[Mareike]

Gabi wrote: "Buddy Read for the next one of KSRs solar system colonial novels.
From the blurb it sounds like it is taking place in the universe of his Mars-trilogy.

Please state your chapters or percentages wh..."

Thanks for setting this up, Gabi! Sending you hugs and good vibes.
And everyone else, too.

I'll probably start tonight or tomorrow, depending on how long I need to finish this work thing I wanted to get done today.
I was not completely taken by KSR's Mars books, but I wanted to see how I liked a more recent book by him.

[Jemppu]

Mareike wrote: "....I was not completely taken by KSR's Mars books, but I wanted to see how I liked a more recent book by him...."

This could be somewhat easier to digest, for it seems far less bothered with posing as immediate sociopolitical rivalries.

[DivaDiane]

@Jemina and anyone else interested, KSR does indeed listen to classical music while he writes sitting in his garden. I’m pretty sure it’s no secret, but he did say it to me outright when I interviewed him for SofaCon (an online convention for StarShipSofa) before virtual cons were a thing.

[Jemppu]

Ah, yes! I think I remember you mentioning that once in some of the Mars discussions ^^

[Mareike]

@Jemina: It was more the execution than the topics of the Mars books that didn't always 100% work for me.

Edit:

Listened to the prologue and first two chapters and I do like KSR's prose.
I also like (view spoiler)[ the idea of the "lists" as a structuring and worldbuilding device (if that's what they turn out to be throughout) and after taking a look at the table of contents I'm looking forward to see how those and the "extracts" are gonna interact with the main narrative over time. (hide spoiler)]

[Anthony]

I just finished the lengthy Wahram and Swan chapter, and am altogether very impressed so far. This novel is more intimate in some ways than the Mars trilogy, but still infused with KSR’s awe of and regard for the immensity of our galaxy, and the mysteries of the planetary bodies and moons and asteroids that inhabit the galaxy.

Aspects of (view spoiler)[ the long walk through the tunnel reminded me in ways of the long trek through the frozen wasteland that Genly Ai and Estraven make in the latter third of The Left Hand of Darkness. (hide spoiler)] I’m struck by KSR’s excellent ability to explore the dualities and complexities of human beings by placing characters of very different temperaments together. It’s something he did again and again, to great effect, in the Mars trilogy, but it doesn’t feel like he’s treading the same ground here.

[Jemppu]

Yes, it is definitely more intimate, by the setup already. And the character interactions are indeed used to a great effect.

One thing that has for me jumped out quite new with this whole narrative, in comparison to the Mars trilogy, is the inclusion of fauna. Understandably there wasn't much room for such in (early) Martian scenery, and it's nice to have this extend to involve zoology alongside other branches of life sciences.

[Anthony]

Yes, I appreciate that as well, although the encounters with the polar bear in Blue Mars were vivid for me.

[Jemppu]

Anthony wrote: "Yes, I appreciate that as well, although the encounters with the polar bear in Blue Mars were vivid for me."

Wow, yes... where as somehow I seem to have already forgotten about that! For shame <:D But, you're right! There was that.


"Swan and Pauline and Wahram and Genette" at about 86%, commenting mid-chapter, but have to say how (view spoiler)[this confiding with Pauline was/is a rather thrilling turn of events. It seems to play out 'well' right away, but I find myself still suspecting, if there could be repercussions yet. Which is a nice addition for suspense... (hide spoiler)].

[Mareike]

At 12 percent after "Extracts (3)" (view spoiler)[I am definitely intrigued by everything that's going on, especially all the secrets (though I'm also a bit annoyed on Swan's behalf about how many things were kept from her by people she knew well).

I'm also enjoying all the references he's packing in. And given that AIs are shaping up to be a major topic names like "Terminator" and "cubes" are too obvious to be a coincidence. (hide spoiler)]

[Beth]

I can't join the buddy read because OverDrive doesn't have the book, but I will be following the discussion as I have read this before. I was really impressed with this one and I'm sure I'll reread it when the physical library opens again.

[Mareike]

Ok, here's a few thoughts I've had the last few days.

Wahram and Swan (view spoiler)[This was an interesting chapter, and a s I said in my update, it was particularly fun to be out walking as well for part of it.
Did anyone feel that it was, in some ways, in conversation with the chapter "Swan in the Dark"? Both of these chapters are about inner journeys, that happen while the characters are on a physical journey in an enclosed space. And the blackener made me think of those floating tanks that exist today and that are described as having a similar effect.

This chapter also made me thing about a worldbuilding thing that I keep seeing in some sci-fi - ST:TNG does it a lot, for example - and it's the reference to what we'd consider classical music (and classic literature) which seems to keep it's status even several hundred years into the future. It's interesting that it's so often works by artists like Beethoven that get referenced and rarely works that we'd consider contemporary classics (like the Beatles or Rolling Stones, for example). It probably has to do with which the prestige these works are afforded. And obviously KSR doesn't to this exclusively. There's after all the abramovitches Swan creates. But this again points to a very particular set of high art/culture.
This is not a complaint or something that bugged me, just something I had fun thinking about, I guess. (hide spoiler)]

Extracts 7 (view spoiler)[I find these extracts interesting but I wonder if they maybe work better for eye-reading than listening. This in particular was an interesting look at the way gender has developed in KSR's universe, but the talk between Wahram and Swan about having children and Wahram's crèche worked a little better for me.

I also liked what I figured is a nod to Ursula K. Le Guin:

... cultures deemphasizing gender are sometimes referred to as ursuline cultures, origin of term unknown, perhaps referring to the difficulty there can be in determining the gender of bears.

(He has said in this interview that he has "been taught a lot about gender in science fiction" by Le Guin (also Joanna Russ and Samuel Delaney).

Though I will also admit that the origin of term unknown made me a little sad. Especially because so, so many places and things in this universe are named for male artists. Maybe this is KSR's nod to the way in which women's contributions to history/science/art have often been overlooked. Though it's sad to think that this would still be the case in a future that supposedly is exploring and living gender in different ways than we are doing.

Or maybe I'm just overthinking all of this. (hide spoiler)]

Swan and the Inspector (view spoiler)[The talk about good and evil in this chapter was especially fun after just having finished The Just City by Jo Walton.

I'm not sure what to think about Swan's behavior towards the three possible androids. The way she escalated that was pretty jarring. What did people think about that? (hide spoiler)]

I'm overall enjoying this and remain curious to see where this is going.

[Jemppu]

Regarding Extracts 7 (view spoiler)[I took that perhaps KSR wanted to leave the 'origin unknown' so as not to be too obvious. Since there are already ursuline institutes (so named after saint Ursula), could strictly redefining the term be seen as a comment against them? Saint Ursula being already a patron saint of girls, perhaps in keeping the term undefined one is free to imagine a richer history for the term, including both of these possibilities for the origin.

A thought. From one Ursula, who was definitely also intrigued by this passage.

I'd personally be more than glad if "Ursula" ever became the associative word for 'de-emphasized gender'... instead of a 'virgin saint' *ha* (hide spoiler)]

[Anthony]

@Mareike (view spoiler)[ I confess I didn’t even make the connection to Le Guin. I took at face value the character’s guess that ursuline referred to bears’ gender being difficult to determine. But I very much enjoy your interpretation!

As for Beethoven, I agree that it’s strange in some ways to think that composers such as he would still be revered 300 years from now, but I also think that mastery like his are equally as likely to last through the ages. No matter the era, musicians will exist, and his (and other composers’) canon will remain challenging and fulfilling for these musicians to play. (hide spoiler)]

[Mareike]

About Extracts 7 (view spoiler)[I hadn't thought of St. Ursula and ursuline institutes at all. (Too much of a lapsed Catholic, in a family of lapsed Catholics, I guess.) I'm not sure I'd see it as an a comment against Ursuline institutes, but....well.....I also don't have skin in that game. (hide spoiler)]

@Anthony (view spoiler)[It's possible that I picked up on it because I had read the interview where KSR mentioned Le Guin the same day I listened to this extract (I think). So she may just have still been on my mind.
And I had no idea it was so hard to determine a bear's gender, so I learned something new! (Which happens a lot with KSR's books.)

Oh, yeah, I agree about works like those by Beethoven remaining challenges for musicians and probably outlasting a lot of things because they are very good.
I mean, we're still staging Shakespeare plays or reading the Iliad today, so...
And as I said, this isn't a pet peeve or something I think is "bad" worldbuilding or anything. It was just something that struck me and I found it interesting to think about which works/artists come up more often and why, both on a "writing" level and a "story" level. (hide spoiler)]

[Mareike]

Since I can't seem to go back to sleep, here's another question that I've been turning over in my head: who is compiling those lists and extracts? (view spoiler)[Pauline? Some other A.I.? (hide spoiler)] What did everyone make of those and their (structural/storytelling) function in the text? Cause I'm not sure what to make of them yet.

[Jemppu]

Interesting question. I myself hold them just as sort of 'mood boards'. Much like the interlaid 'infodump' passages in the Mars trilogy, which served to provide a wider picture of the themes alongside the actual plotted story.

[Mareike]

Iapetus (view spoiler)[I loved the description of Iapetus and of the art people did there. I love land art (e.g. Susan Hill's The Mud Maid or Robert Smithson's Spiral Jetty). You could probably write a whole separate book just about the creation of that art and the controversy surrounding it.

And this comment by the narrator was interesting:
...the truth is, we are here to inscribe ourselves on the universe, and it's not inappropriate to remind ourselves of this when blank slates are given. All landscape art reminds us: we live in a tabula rasa and must write on it.

I like it, but at the same time I'm not sure I completely agree. "we live in a tabula rasa" feels like an extremely anthropocentric point of view. But he's of course not wrong because by our very presence we're inscribing ourselves onto the world (hide spoiler)]

[Anthony]

@Mareike that theme is central to so much of what KSR is writing about in both the Mars trilogy and this book, and I imagine it’s probably present in other books of his I haven’t yet read. I love the depth of ideas that he brings to bear and interrogates and investigates in his work.

[Mareike]

True! All those debates in the Mars books.
It's interesting to see those concerns reverberate through the different books.

[Mareike]

Extracts 17 (view spoiler)[This was an interesting chapter. KSR has definitely gotten more nuanced in how he writes about gender compared to the first two Mars books. (I realized the other day that I haven't read Blue Mars yet - I think when it was a BR last year, I needed a break from this universe. This one still works, for me, even though I'm suspecting I'm missing some nods and cross-connections.)

What I found interesting here is how fluid gender has become in this future, but that at the same time, the narrator/writer (or one of the narrators/writers?) for the extracts quoted in this part seems very wedded to biological foundations of gender. The passage about male and female hormones that ends But in our deepest selves, we were always both. And now, in space, openly both. Very small or very tall - human at last. seems to indicate that biologically speaking - despite all the different kinds of gendered bodies described previously - there are only two sexes (based on hormones) that then give rise to a variety of different genders.

I kinda like the idea that in this future humanity is openly both, but there is a bit of a contradiction in, on the hand having this fluidity of gender and on the other reducing it back to two at the end of that paragraph.

Since this chapter is a collection of different extracts, though, this tensions also kind of works, with the different extracts "talking" to each other, if you will, and possibly representing different viewpoints on the topic. (Or maybe that's just me trying really hard to reconcile these two things.)

Oh, and I also liked the evolution of pronouns projected here, with "she" and "he" becoming more personal identifiers (did people already put pronouns into their bios on social media when this book was written? Is he jumping off of that?) and signs of familiarity. (hide spoiler)]

From "Wahram on Earth" onwards (view spoiler)[it feels like the novel loses it's focus a little with the "terraforming on Earth" plot. It feels a bit like a distraction from the previous plot surrounding the investigation. I'm looking forward to seeing how he'll bring that back together. (hide spoiler)]

[Mareike]

Swan and Pauline and Wahrem and Genette: (view spoiler)[Swan and Wahram floating in space in their suits and Wahram saying "I love you" made me think of this scene from ST: Voyager: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQuSH... (hide spoiler)]

[Anthony]

@mareike (view spoiler)[ the bookending of their journey through the tunnel followed later in life by their floating in space was so beautifully portrayed. (hide spoiler)]

[Mareike]

Anthony wrote: "@mareike [spoilers removed]"

Yes! I liked how those two events mirrored each other!

Some final thoughts.

Quantum Walk 3 (view spoiler)[I remain intrigued by the many references to Emily Dickinson that keep popping up in these "Quantum Walk" chapters. (I spotted three in this one (this, this, and this), so maybe that number corresponds to the number in the title?) I find it very interesting that in these chapters, which give us the POV of one of the humanoid qubes, Dickinson is quoted so much, many of her poems are explorations of perception and consciousness, so that fit for me. I went and did a bit of googling to see if KSR had talked about this decision in interviews about the book and he has. (Though I'm not sure I agree with his assertion that (view spoiler)["She is kind of like a quantum computer. You can't understand her." (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

Swan (view spoiler)[After my ruminations about the inclusion of classical music in SFF, I laughed a little when Bob Dylan's "Nettie Moore" was quoted in this chapter. I guess I stand corrected. (hide spoiler)]