"The First Fifteen Lives of Harry August" Discuss Everything *Spoilers*

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Let's talk about everything here!

A few questions to get us started (but you can say/ ask whatever you want!)

1. How well do you think North handled the "what if" in this book?
2. What did you think of the relationships, particularly Vincent's and Harry's?
3. What did you think of the narrative structure?
4. How has this compared to other of her novels / what did you think overall?

[Gabi]

I'm not completely through the book, I just wanted to say that the graphic torture scene(s) needed a strong stomach. I wasn't expecting such blunt prose. Is this the author's usual style? (it's my first Claire North novel).

Notwithstanding the fact that I still have to read the last 20% I already can say that I dearly love the jumpy narrative structure. I listen to it on audio and swaped it for my current audiobook ("The moon is a harsh mistress"), cause I couldn't concentrate on that for the love of it. And here I find myself fully immersed and wide attentive while listening. So a big yes from me for the structure.

[Jennifer]

I haven't read the author's other novels. But I have read this twice.

[Gabi]

S***ugar! I just finished it and now I'm crying. This went into quite another direction than I was expecting and touched me a lot deeper than I assumed.

[Mareike]

Allison wrote: "Let's talk about everything here!

A few questions to get us started (but you can say/ ask whatever you want!)

3. What did you think of the narrative structure?"

I'm not quite done yet so I'll stick to question 3: I do like the structure and the way it gradually reveals Harry's lives and his world to us. I'm still a bit stumped by how short some of the chapters are but oh well. I assume it's meant to make us feel like the narrative, like time, hurtles on unstoppably, which, I guess is kinda true for both.

There's one thing in chapter 26 that stood out to me and I wonder if I'm reading too much into this? The fact that abortion is one of the two only ways to kill a Kalachakra and the way that was described pulled me out of it for a moment, mostly, I think, because the language there seemed....a little too close to what one hears from anti-abortion campaigners (talking about the fetus as a child, abortion as death, etc.). I can see why, in the logic of the novel and these people who return to the moment of their birth after every death, but......Idk.....it just felt a bit off to me.

I do like how we can see doubts creeping in for Harry (for example in ch. 34) and that the novel keeps coming back to the question of "what do you do if you have knowledge about the past and the future" and I'm looking forward to seeing where else this is going to go.

[Ryan, Your favourite moderators favourite moderator]

1. How well do you think North handled the "what if" in this book?

This book is so much. I almost forgot about the love story at the start of the book as the novel plowed on with it's exploration of this 'What If...'

It wasn't all pleasantly received at first but I'm still astounded by how much the author covered. Harry's lives didn't feel throwaway despite him being able to be careless with them. I've had this story in my head for so long now its hard to pick out any particular point as one that no other author would have thought of, but maybe cramming so many ideas yet still keeping such a fast pace is something few others could manage with such skill.

It was a story that demanded to be read quickly yet hit me with ideas that had me pondering for hours each.

[Chris]

This book does what scifi does best. If makes you think about the WHAT IF. There were times that I just had to put the book down for a while and ponder. Like the idea that the greatest crime one could commit was to prevent the birth of those who would be born in the future. Dang, I could see myself becoming paralyzed with fear that anything I did could potentially kill. Or the guy that spends all of his life in war zones because it is the only way to be surprised by anything. What extremes would I go to after thousands of years of life? Or would I become so jaded that the forgetting would be the only option. Double Dang. Interesting ideas. I love it.
That said, Man this was a dark book. Murder, torture, and disregard for basic human goodness. And pessimistic, good grief. It is just a given that we will destroy the earth and society, it is only a question of when. The central conflict boils down to, can Harry just buy a couple hundred years, before we destroy it all. Dang again.

[J.W.]

I had to put this one down several times. Not a fan of the narrative style. Was not a fan of the content, either. Couldn’t get into the characters. Too dark for me at this stage in life as I await the death of a loved one (not related to pandemic but other things), etc. Just not for me at all. Sometimes I think I could love a book at a different time, but I don’t feel that way here.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Ach, a harsh book indeed if any of it feels too bear, JW! I'm sorry about the stress of the impending loss. Much comfort to you and those affected.

[Jennifer]

Man....I guess I read dark stuff. I don't remember it being as dark as others are feeling it to be...I just really liked the story, the "time travel", Harry, it really made me think.

[Gabi]

@Jennifer: I absolutely loved it because it was so dark. I can't remember many books that had such a profound impact on my feelings. Absolutely no comfort read, but the kind of stirring me up that I am looking for in a novel.
That said I can completely understand that it is just too bleak for others.

Those who gave read more of Claire North's books: is this her usual style? How do her other works compare to this one?

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Gabi, I think Touch is very much in this vein. I did not think Sudden Appearance was as strong as those two.

Yeah, this was not a "pleasant" read, but goodness me, she puts so much thought into her books and so much soul into her characters! I really admire that.

[YouKneeK]

Gabi wrote: "Those who gave read more of Claire North's books: is this her usual style? How do her other works compare to this one?"

I’ve only read this one and Touch, but I enjoyed both and thought they had a similar style.

Of the two, I liked Touch slightly more. I loved some of the implications of the premise, and I also thought it had more moral ambiguity. I couldn't stop thinking about it, and I felt conflicted about many aspects of it. Touch was also the first one I read and sometimes I appreciate an author’s unique style the most the first time I encounter it, so I’m not sure if that played a role in which one I preferred. I liked both a lot, though.

[Edited fix to words flop-flipped.]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

What YouKneeK said :)

I wanted to ask you all...what did you think of the arc of Vincent and Harry's relationship? I wasn't sure I bought Harry agreeing to help Vincent with his god machine.

[Jen]

I've been wanting to join the discussion but I've been taking my time in thinking this book over. It was a really different approach to the idea of time and how we move through it, and of course the end of the world is well-trodden and this was a fresh approach.

The relationship between Vincent and Harry was an unusual one, they were truly frenemies.

I didn't find the book to be overly dark, but I like dark; that is to say, I like the full spectrum and I don't shy away from the dark stuff. This was well-balanced and well-done, and I'll definitely check out the author's other work.

[Sabrina]

@Gabi: This was my third Claire North book. I loved "Touch" best: the style, the premise and the execution, but as YouKneeK said it might have been the first experience? Having said that, "hope" did not convince me, but "Harry" came very close! I liked her thought experiments and how the world ended (though I'm not sure I could have handled this in the current situation), the bitterness of two old enemies and yet the urge to do good.

@Alison: not for a moment did I buy that Harry would want to work on that projects: found that quite inconsistent and implausible!

[Gabi]

Thanks for the comments on her other books. Looks like I definitely have to read "Touch".

Strangely enough I had no problems with Harry suddenly wanting to work for Vincent. When I read the ambiguties here and in Alison's update I wonder why this was the case. It sounds logical what other readers say, yet I felt like "wow, Quantum Mirror (whatever that is), this must be paradise for a physicist working on it - I can totally understand Harry …" ^^' So I pinned it down to scientific curiosity and the urge to know more about what it will be that perhaps could end the world.

[Jen]

I thought Harry was doing it as a double-agent. I know the book doesn't say anything like that, but what better way to find out what Vincent was doing to bring about the end of the world? And how else could anyone have a hope to stop it, but to find out ?

[Gabi]

Jen wrote: "I thought Harry was doing it as a double-agent. I know the book doesn't say anything like that, but what better way to find out what Vincent was doing to bring about the end of the world? And how e..."

Yes, that sounds convincingly.

[Melani]

You know those moments when a line from a book just hits you so hard that you can't breathe and you just pause on it re-reading it over and over? They don't happen very often for me, but this book had one for me. It just summed up the major themes of the book while also feeling so relevant to modern life and I just love it.

"Who are you, god that you would become, to destroy the world in your search for knowledge?"

[Mareike]

Jen wrote: "I thought Harry was doing it as a double-agent. I know the book doesn't say anything like that, but what better way to find out what Vincent was doing to bring about the end of the world? And how e..."

That's a good point!
Maybe even some sort of "If I 'help' Vincent, maybe I can prevent the worst" kind of justification. The book doesn't say that, but then, Harry, even though he sets himself up as a reliable narrator, might just be leaving that out. [Edit to add:] (This is an interesting book to think about the conceit at the heart of autobiographical storytelling, even though it's fictional.)

One thing that struck me about the ending was Harry telling Vincent that he wouldn't get to be a God, but isn't Harry himself acting as God (or judge, jury, and executioner) by preventing Vincent from being born?

[E.D.]

Having gushed over ‘Hope’ in the recent buddy read I felt obliged to join this read, and I’m glad I did.

I felt that the narrative structure of the story over-arched everything else, the ‘what if’ questions and in particular, the relationships. North is effectively giving us the musings of a person recalling events over a number of years and lives. We have to accept the ‘what if’ as believable because the narrator himself does. He is not trying to make us believe, just recounting his own memories.

I can understand Mareike feeling uncomfortable with the language used in describing the aborting of the unborn Kalachakr, but at the same time, a lot depends on why the reader is reading the book in the first place rather than the attitudes of the writer. North is able to distance herself from any issues readers may take issue with by use of the narrator.

Harry and Vincent’s relationship is one of mutual respect and love. They both have a conceit born of their long experiences and intelligence. Although Vincent’s arrogance is clear, Harry also tends to not question his own decisions, at least not until later lives when he reviews his treatment of both his fathers. It rings true as a memoir, as much by what is not said about relationships as what is. I am thinking particularly about Jenny here, her reappearance later in the book surprised me as an interesting twist.

Overall I really enjoyed this book as a thoughtful while still entertaining read. I am going to have to fit in her others somewhere along the line.

[Sabrina]

I like the "scientific curiosity" theory. It would certainly fit Harry's character.

Initially, I believed in the "double agent" theory as well, because I couldn't understand why Harry would do this. But then it turned out he was serious about it, so I discarded it again while reading.

[Ryan, Your favourite moderators favourite moderator]

Did North have to do a better job of portraying Vincent's argument? I mostly came away from the book believing that the end of the world scenario wasn't literally the end of the world. There was a lot of fear of the unknown and Vincent taking actions that were a threat to the club which were an end to the world in some respects. Is it lazy to think that the poorly defined end of the world scenario was actually a premature end to the club and these remortals?

[Mareike]

Oh, that's an interesting question, Ryan.
It might be. But there were also descriptions by Harry about escalating pollution and environmental degradation that seem to point to a de facto end of the world.
And there is the parallel to the other Kalachakra who tried to change the world (I can'tcremember bis name). Since that ended in nuclear war, I guess the implication is something similar will happen due to Vincent's actions?

And I guess Harry manipulating the quantum mirror and having both of them (and the other Team members?) die of radiation is Harry's way of making Vincent suffer through what humanity might suffer from if Vincent succeeds?

[Amanda]

At the time he joined up with Vincent, he was also touching on the boredom of living through the same chunk of history over and over, how he's read that same article, done the same crossword, etc., in previous lives. So Vincent was better able to hook him with the offer of "finding out why we exist", and I got the impression he was so attracted to the idea that he didn't want to believe that it was connected, or that maybe the "end of the world" thing was overblown.

[Mareike]

Ah, yes, also possible, Amanda.

One thing I keep wondering about is why Virginia joined up with Vincent? There wasn't quite enough on that for me.

[E.D.]

I must agree with Mareike about Virginia's intentions. I know it's asking the impossible but it would be interesting to read an alternative narrative from one of the other players in the story (such as Virginia). Perhaps the author has already answered these questions somewhere?

[Amanda]

Agreed, the Virginia reveal kind of came out of nowhere and I would have appreciated some additional explanation there.

[Hank, Hankenstein's Modster]

Ryan wrote: "Did North have to do a better job of portraying Vincent's argument?"

For me no. It worked for me that she just set it up in some nebulous way and it wasn't a factor from then on out. I was really captivated by the frenemy relationship and did not really care about the details of the doomsday.

And for the record, I really enjoyed the book.

[Edwin]

Hank wrote: "Ryan wrote: "Did North have to do a better job of portraying Vincent's argument?"

For me no. It worked for me that she just set it up in some nebulous way and it wasn't a factor from then on out. ..."

I was frustrated at first with how North kept the details of the Quantum Mirror and the whole end of the world thing so vague, but after finishing, I think that maybe that was her intent.

I too was intrigued with the complex relationship between Vincent and Harry. It reminded me of Sherlock Holmes and Moriarty.

[Sandy]

First I listened to the book, so maybe that accounts for some lighter thoughts. It never occurred to me to question Harry wanting to work for Vincent. Vincent always looked for Harry to try to get his birth place out of him and make him forget.

The thing that bothered me the most was Harry having the capacity to change anything about the Mirror as an Accountant. He just wouldn't have access to this stuff. But getting beyond that, I always thought that Harry wanted to stay close to Vincent because he wanted the same thing. He caused the accident to ensure he would save Vincent and get his birth place out of him by proving his loyalty.

I thought the concept of taking future progress back in time and ultimately worsening the condition of mankind and the earth highly interesting. A good premise and reminds me of The Terminator movie series where the Terminator's hand led the company to produce the machines that ultimately killed mankind because the theory of (Jurassic Park) "Scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should..."

[Phillip]

This book was fantastic. I loved the whole Groundhog Life concept, but I especially loved how callous they were about linears. Harry and Vincent had great debates.

[Jerry-Book]

A couple of books came to mind in reading this one. “Blood Music” by Greg Bear which deals with a mad scientist who invents a radical new noodcyte infusion and “A Boat of a Billion Years” by Poul Anderson which deals with eleven immortals and their struggle to find each other which reminds me of Club Cronus.

[Paul]

This one got to me in the can't stop listening to find out how it ends, stay up late way.

What is actually reminded me of was Stephen King's 11/22/63 with the time loop, reset, don't mess with history themes.

I didn't think it was a particularly dark book - I've read a lot harder novels

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Paul, what do you think it was that gripped you like that?

I'm glad that the subject matter didn't upset you! The children dying by suicide and graphic torture were a bit rough for me, but I know we all have our own lines we're comfortable with :)

[Christopher]

I didn't read this so I'm just jumping in here without looking at the posts so hope this isn't a repeat, but I just saw that Wes Ball is set to direct the movie adaptation of First Fifteen Lives of Harry August for Amblin Partners.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Hmm!! That could be interesting. Thanks Chris!

[Paul]

I can never quite understand just what it is that turns a book into a page-turning must finisher for me.

I think it is a combination of a story that steadily builds up to a climax (e.g. the big battle at the end that all the characters have been moving towards), you NEED to know what is going to happen because the author has guided you well to this point, and the timing of there being such a short number of pages left in the book that you just might as well finish it off tonight!

Sometimes, this might just be the last 20 pages but sometimes if the author has done it particularly well, this point is reach with at least a third of the book left (which with some 700 page fantasy novels can lead to sleepless nights!).

Do others get this with books, or is it just me?

[David]

I just finished this a month late and I regret not reading it with y'all a month ago!

Allison wrote: "I wanted to ask you all...what did you think of the arc of Vincent and Harry's relationship? I wasn't sure I bought Harry agreeing to help Vincent with his god machine."

This was actually my biggest complaint about the whole book: I did not connect with either Harry or Vincent in this matter. It's not that I can't understand wanting to understand the mysteries of their existence; it's that I do not understand the foundation of their relationship at all. I understand that that they're supposed to have this friendship beyond love forged over centuries, but it was a very "tell, don't show" sort of thing. I never liked Vincent in any way myself and mostly saw him as a psychopath until the very end, so I could not empathize with Harry when it came to Vincent, or his decision to cooperate with him.

Mareike wrote: "One thing I keep wondering about is why Virginia joined up with Vincent? There wasn't quite enough on that for me."

Ditto. Considering her importance to Harry (relative to most of the kalachakra), her betrayal and Forgetting would have been much more impactful to me if she was developed better.

I can deal with books without action if they're strong on characters and relationships that I can connect with, and and I can deal with books without characters I connect with if the plot is engaging, but I need one or the other. The result of all this was that from 20% to 60% through the book, which was relatively low on action, I was pretty unmotivated by the book.

The frequent flitting back and forth through times and lives didn't help either. Since it went to the trouble of taking me out of the here-and-now to introduce characters like Fidel Gussman in another time and place, I assumed that he would return to play a part once the characters were "at war", but instead he never appeared again. I would rather those be spent better developing Vincent and Virginia and their relationships with Harry.

But for all that complaining, I still thought this book was amazing! For me to not connect with the plot or characters for almost half the book and still rate it a solid 4 stars says something about how much I liked it.

An amusing aside: part of what made me read this book is that after seeing people here reading it and reading the blurb myself, I had a dream about living in a reality like this. Without actually reading the book, the dream was nothing like it and like all dreams was full of unrelated nonsense, but I woke up remembering it (which is unusual) for me and then bought the book the same day :D

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Haha amazing anecdote, and agreed with your thoughts on Vincent and Virginia!