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Beta reader question
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I asked another reader on Goodreads to read a short story I had written. I had commented with her in the Ancient & Medieval Fiction Group. She was someone who has interests similar to mine and I could see from her books that we had read many of the same books and our ratings were similar. I felt a bit apprehensive asking her and gave her the opportunity to decline my request, but she was willing and gave me great feedback. I then I asked another writer (who is a Goodreads author) that I know. She also very graciously accepted and gave me even more feedback; as a writer, she had even better suggestions. I then found an editor who helped me even more.
I learned a lot from all of them, to the point that I wonder how I ever thought I could write without them.
One writer I follow, Robert Bidinotto who writes thrillers, recently self-published his second novel. I think he said he had over 25 beta readers for his second book. I was thoroughly impressed.
I've been a beta for a few colleagues, We usually exchange (one beta-reads the other). You must say what you expect from the beta. Grammar? Plot flaws? Historical inaccuracies? Some people can help you in one aspect but not in others.
Pedro wrote: "I've been a beta for a few colleagues, We usually exchange (one beta-reads the other). You must say what you expect from the beta. Grammar? Plot flaws? Historical inaccuracies? Some people can hel..."
I did not ask for any particular aspect of what I had written to be corrected by my readers. However, each of the readers noted what they thought needed strengthening or correcting from their own perspective.
I think the most important thing a beta reader can give you, aside from their particular expertise, is honesty. I've picked up a few self-published pretty bad books on Amazon that had great reviews, but I later realized they had to have been written by kindhearted friends. If the writer had gotten honest feedback, maybe their book would have been better.
I have five beta readers for my next novel. They are a mixture: two are experts on the place and time I am writing about; one is a well-connected friend; another is a person I met at a conference that is a voracious reader; and another is my PR person. I sent them all the same instructions: note any glaring typos please, but focus on the characters and scenes and tell me if either are lacking. Or something like that.
My honest feeling is that if you've already had an editor look at it, there's not a whole lot of point to running it through beta readers--unless it's a part of history you and your editor(s) weren't very familiar with. I think if you process a book through these various editing phases TOO much, you risk losing all the stuff that makes it good or unique. You'll never make every reader happy and your book will never be perfect. IMO there's more to be gained by publishing it after it's been edited, not by continuing to revise. :)
This is a fascinating topic. I too had five beta readers for my most recent manuscript. Only one is an expert in the period (because I feel with PhD in history I know how to do research and I'm confident about my facts and grasp of the period), two that consider themselves "literary experts" (i.e. they read a lot of high-brow stuff and think they can tell literature from trash) and two, who honestly say they're just ordinary readers. I asked all to give me feed-back on the plot and characters. (I pay an editor for the spelling and grammar stuff), and this is truly what I want feed-back on. I've found that I'm often too close (and too fond) of my material to see what needs to be cut - or expanded upon, what fascinates and what is just confusing. It's good to have a odd number of readers though because they sometimes have flat-out opposite views!
You are wise to have an editor, not just for grammar, typos, etc., but to evaluate if your story holds together and to learn how to wring out more emotion and conflict from you story.Yes, seldom do beta readers or members of a critique group agree. Advice is all over the map. The toughest job is determining who gives the best advice. Ultimately it comes down to it's YOUR book, and you must decide.
I think that if you have 4-5 beta readers and more than two of them are saying the same thing about your book eg. I don't understand this scene or that character lacks depth etc. you are wise to consider their advice before publishing. That is what beta readers are for - So far my readers are in agreement that my book is good. But a few have said the beginning is slow. So I went back and killed some darlings.
I always take anything a beta reader says seriously. Even if it's only one. The problem pops up when one beta reader says "I hate this character; they're not convincing," and another say, "I love this character! I could so identify with him/her!"
You will never, ever please everyone. Look at even very popular books or classics and you will always find at least a few 1 star ratings, for instance. In the end, it's your book. Listen to what the one person says who likes the character, and then to the other who doesn't. You have to decide which one makes the most compelling argument.
Best wishes to you.
Also, remember there are segments to every market. I can go around the table in my critique group and determine which segment each person fits in. Pay most attention to your target market.
Good tip! I confess, one of my beta readers doesn't usually read historical fiction at all, and she's almost always out of sync with the others. Need to do a better job of selecting beta readers next time around!
Helena wrote: "This is a fascinating topic. I too had five beta readers for my most recent manuscript. Only one is an expert in the period (because I feel with PhD in history I know how to do research and I'm con..."If it's a choice between the literary expert's advice and the ordinary reader's - go with the reader's!
The big things to listen to with beta readers is a) 'It took me a while to get into it' which means you have to seriously pare down the opening chapters and b) anything which confuses them. Even if only one person is confused, it pays to clarify.
Sorry, that sounded very didactic - I teach writing and I guess I'm in the habit of giving advice to new writers! Apologies.
Pamela, do not worry. You offered good advice. The modern reader does not want a long intro or backstory. Neither do they want holes in the logic of the story that make them stop and question the story. I have attended several critique groups while writing the novel I recently released and while writing its sequel. I've seen many people come and go because they refuse to accept the words of wisdom you've given. Agents and publishers want the same thing. Good luck trying to sell a story if it doesn't grab them in the first 4-6 pages, even less.
Thanks, Wes. I think you're right - and I have a theory about that! In earlier centuries, a writer needed to set the scene with great detail, because their reader was likely to have led a fairly circumscribed life and to not have visual/auditory/sensory images to draw upon. The writer had to paint the picture in detail before the reader 'saw' it. But readers now have such a huge exposure to visual and other stimuli, they have an enormous bank of images etc to draw upon. So they can be far more active 'co-creators' of the world with the writer - but that also means that they are impatient with a writer who sets the scene too much, because they are all ready for the story!I think this is becoming true even in literary fiction.
I think you are correct. Definitely readers are impatient to get to the action whether it be physical, emotional, or intellectual.
Pamela wrote: "...In earlier centuries, a writer needed to set the scene with great detail, because their reader was likely to have led a fairly circumscribed life and to not have visual/auditory/sensory images to draw upon. The writer had to paint the picture in detail before the reader 'saw' it. But readers now have such a huge exposure to visual and other stimuli, they have an enormous bank of images etc to draw upon. So they can be far more active 'co-creators' of the world with the writer - but that also means that they are impatient with a writer who sets the scene too much, because they are all ready for the story!..."Wonderfully put, Pamela! I can't agree more!
Btw, I don't think it's a problem, or make any less of the modern-day reader. I think it's only fair that the writers should adjust.
For myself, as a reader, long before trying to make it out there as a writer, I always preferred action-filled historical fiction to any history lesson wrapped in fiction or not. I think even before the wide-spread TV culture, authors like Clavell or McCullough managed to do that, to grip one from the very first pages and deliver swirl of action while managing feed us history, back-stories and backgrounds in between.
So us, modern-day writers, actually has no reason to complain :)
Reader's tastes change. Melville couldn't get away with spending the first third of MOBY DICK explaining ships and whales in today's market. Also force-feeding history in a novel is the kiss of death.
Clavell and McCullough are far and away my favorite historical fiction writers. They happen to give the most information as well, but like Zoe said, they do so in a way that makes it feel less like a lesson and more like a story. That's what makes or break HF for me. I want to learn, but not feel like I am learning.
I received a very interesting comment from one of my beta readers the other day - and this is a quote from him: It's time to put the paint brushes down and stop daubing away. The readers may have valid points and their suggestions actually could improve the final product. However, I'd say sort out what your readers are saying and probably toss out 90% of them. Be less attentive to outside comments and follow your own muse.
At some point YOU have to stand back and say that's it, that's the yarn, I can tinker to death with it but it is time to hit save, print, and then close up the computer.
Kandice, I think that's it in a nutshell!Sheila,
I reckon it depends on who your beta readers are and if they agree with each other! I sent my last novel out to a few beta readers, some of whom are history buffs and others not. The ones who knew history came back saying, 'I think you've explained too much' and the ones who didn't know history came back saying, 'Could you explain it a bit more?'! So, yes, in the end you have to go with your own sense of the story.
Do you belong to a critique group? Many of these issues can be settled in weekly or bi-weekly (hope I got that right, I mean meetings every two weeks) while you are writing the first draft.
Kandice wrote: "...That's what makes or break HF for me. I want to learn, but not feel like I am learning...."Exactly! For me, this is the point of historical fiction, as well :)
(if I want to learn certain history event/period in depth I'll pick textbooks, but hist-fic is there to make it entertaining and alive, so please, no dry history lessons and no long passages describing how people lived with no connection to the action)
Wes wrote: "Do you belong to a critique group? Many of these issues can be settled in weekly or bi-weekly (hope I got that right, I mean meetings every two weeks) while you are writing the first draft."I used to, but life got in the way. I have beta readers for first and second drafts, and after that it goes to the editor.
This is a great thread!I like to have people read my work. Sometimes people may have opinions that you don't agree with at all, but you may also get important input.
Let people read it and then look through their notes, discard what you don't agree, but consider rewriting the ones you like.
One of my beta readers made a very good point that I am very happy that I worked into my story.
Just wondered if anyone would be able to give me some advice. I've finished writing my first novel and it's been through an editing cycle. I'm now looking to get a couple of beta readers, does anyone have any tips on the best way to 'recruit' (for want of a better word)?
Many thanks and Merry Christmas,
Sarah