TWILIGHT HATERS discussion
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In their shoes - A Devil's Advocate approach to loving Twilight
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Haha, I understand. Have you heard about the glow in the dark kittens? Very cool. I will grant you that if somebody intentionally mutated human DNA and created a new super human (which would have to be incubated in a human mother and then born), it is possible. This is a tricky process at best and most cases fail. Also, you would have to isolate the genes that would give you the desirable properties that you are looking for.It isn't likely that a spider bite will mutate every single one of your DNA strands and be able to physically alter your body within a night in such a massive way, though, even if it is a speshul science spider ;)
Also- this topic just begs the question. If you agree with everything I said and see no logical reason to hate the books, then do you still hate the books? If so, why?
That's true- some people really do go out of line when they attack others (verbally or physically), but how different are we? Also, why not hate the fans in that case, and not the book? Whenever a Twilight lover enters our group and goes "you guys suck!" they are often greeted by a "you suck too!" "go away! this group is only for haters!" It may not be the same as hitting or slapping someone, but its starting to come close to the same religious fanaticism
Well, we do trashtalk about them often, so why shouldn't they enter and give us a piece of their mind? They were talking about us in that way in a twilight lover's group, and some people from this group (myself included) went there to explain our perspective to them. Hypocritical, much?
Well, there are so many LOTR vs Harry Potter arguments going on all over the internet. They have been going on for a long time. Not as many people hate the series outright, because it is interesting, funny, and generally better researched and well written. Good stuff for kids. People that are fundamentally opposed to Harry Potter are usually religious zealots that constantly claim that witchcraft is evil in all forms. Of course, these are the same people that say that Pokemon is bad because it shows the Pokemon evolving into other Pokemon, and god says evolution is a lie, so Pokemon is bad too. But nobody really takes them seriously.Star Wars- is it even possible to hate star wars? Star Wars is awesome!
"I don't know, I guess haters and fans are just going to keep trashtalking about eachother unless they ignored eachother."
Why? This is illogical and it shouldn't happen >: People shouldn't do it!
er...i dont get the point of this discussion...
:P I'll reply to your post in a sec. I'm surprised nobody brought up how anti feminist it is yet.
Yes, ... but Twilight is like ALL angst. >.> Everyone is angsty sometime (like I was last night but lets not get into that) but there's no way I could ever like an entire book practically dedicated to angst. I also absolutely DESPISED Children of Hurin because it was basically crap happening to the same guy over and over and over again and other shtuff. There's no PLOT in Twilight except for the last like 1/5 of it or whatever. The rest of the entire thing is just go here go there oh there's Edward omg he's so hot I'm so clumsy he's like a GOD omg he's a vampire, really? ... it's not even really developing a relationship which of course would be the point of a romantic novel kinda. He just shows up places and talks about how dangerous he is and how good she smells and then they talk about, well, the Cullens and then she meets them and viola. It's just blah (imo yeah, I know not to everyone but seriously. It's not even fluff. There's no POINT and no PLOT and it's just fudge stuck together).Like I said- it isn't the best book in existence, so your expectations while reading it should probably be very low. The best you can get out of it would probably be an afternoon or two of entertaining fluff. Remember, the entire book has been written by a teenage girl (of less than average intelligence from what I can see) that is very prone to brooding. She just moved from her sunny home to live with her Dad, constantly worries about her mum and has to put up with puberty and school on top of everything else. To top that, she falls in love with a vampire. You can't expect sunny smiles, can you? I still hold that the angst in the book is an important part of the story.
1) I know. :)
I just have issues with fangirls who don't ever read anything else (well not with not reading anything else but being completely obsessed with it) and freak out when people don't say it's the best thing ever. I mean how is it 'the best thing ever' if you've never bothered to read anything else and then when/if you finally read a book with a plot and character development, it's worse than Twilight? than I have friends who are Twilight lovers. If you love it, good for you. But don't go get all shocked and/or offended and all up in arms because people don't like it and enjoy good literature. I do suppose I like not-so great literature (like Eragon) but at least I know it's awful and don't attack people 'bout it.
True enough. But didn't you agree with me earlier when I said "Hate the fangirls, not the books"? Then why is it different here?
2) Again. With the not vampires. :) If you change something so much, it's not what it is. I really, really don't understand how they can still be called vampires, I'm sure there are other creatures who drink blood. Seriously, they don't sleep in coffins they can be in the sun, they're SPARKLY when they're in the sun they're not weakened/killed by water, holy objects, onions, or any of that, they're just ... nothing like vampires, the only redeeming 'quality' about Victoria and them is they ACTUALLY drink human blood but otherwise they're nothing like vampires. As for the dark thing, well, they're supposed to be 'dark' and 'bad' even the 'good' vampires were bad, Louis or whatshisname wasn't exactly Mr. Nice Guy. Kinda like Aslan. He's good, but not a 'tame Lion'. They're bad. They can be 'good' but they're not really 'good'. Meyer made her not-vampires wimpy. They weren't vampires.
Vampires in general in Meyer's world are brutal. Bella just happened to find the "vegetarian" ones because it makes a good story. She wouldn't fall in love with him if he was a cold blooded killer, would she? (I know this does happen in many vampire novels, but those are generally classified as creepy adult erotica and not fluff for teenage girls)
Also, if you'd like to take this view...why are wizards in Harry Potter capable of good, when classic literature with witcraft generally involves dancing around in the moonlight naked with daggers and ritual sacrifices and wishing evil happenings upon your enemies? It makes for a good story for kids.
3) Never read the Harry Potter books, only seen the movies, which were definitely better than Twilight in character development, expression, lighting, etc. My only qualm was as the movies progressed the lighting got worse but at least their characters had expression. :)
;> Well, Harry Potter just is Harry Potter. Its more exiting. When someone says "Harry, you're a wizard, Harry!" you're obviously going to have more expression than if somebody says something like "Hey Bells. How's it going?"
4) That's just it. Aside from the actual rational lovers, there are a ton of 30+ women or girls or whoever who AREN'T 'maturing' and really do think Edward's everything you'd want in a guy. Sure, some of that stuff is good, but they actually think stalking is cute and dump their boyfriends because they're nothing like Edward and etc. And it's absolutely ridiculous. Yeah, don't date a guy who is an arse. But you can't expect people to be perfect and that's exactly what the book teaches you. A boyfriend should be absolutely perfect and like watching you all the time otherwise you should dump him.
People like these would find someone else to drool over- James Bond, maybe, or a Mr Darcy. Or some celebrity. There's still hope for such people. Again- the issue is with the people, and not the book.
5) Don't mind this at all. Except for the fans it draws and again with the fan'girls' who are 30+ and seriously have issues. Of course there are 30+ year old women and guys and all who love these books, that's great, but not if you're going to go psycho over it and ignore your kids and all and mourn that your husband/wife is not like Edward/Bella.
When a hot guy is involved, fangirlyness reaches new heights. It cannot be helped. It still has nothing to do with the book.
6) Yeah. I agree with both of you. Yes because of the people, but since without the people reading it you'd never hear of it and/or it would've never been published, of course the people. And it is. It'd be like me going around relating absolutely every song I hear, conversation, TREES or pretty much everything to Lord of the Rings. Lord of the Rings is great (or not, depending on your opinion) but trying to relate every freaking thing to it which has nothing to do with it is ridiculous.
Again, fangirls X_x
7) Don't entirely understand this except for how Meyer breaks her own universe rules and it can't really work and all. (discussions of which I won't mention 'cause I don't talk about that shtuff)
Ah, true. She does explain things away rather feebly.
twilight is badly written poor characters and no plot.Hahahaha! The end! That sums up everything!
Ain020596 wrote: "twilight is badly written poor characters and no plot.Hahahaha! The end! That sums up everything!"
a) There are books that are written worse than Twilight. The main problem in Twilight is purple prose and too much detail- but plenty of people seem to enjoy it.
b) poor characters? I think you mean Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu kind of characters, which is not the same as a badly written character. Close, but not quite.
c) There is a plot :P Just because you dislike it and don't consider it to be exciting enough doesn't mean there isn't one.
oh yeah? elaborate further and i'll argue
Elaborate on which points, precisely? The plot?
Alright, here we go.a) Bronwyn: Silk & Steel
ANTIGUA: The Land of Fairies Wizards and Heroes
Vampire Kisses
Note: In the case of Eragon, it isn't so bad since Paolini isn't as arrogant as Meyer. I assume he's honestly just naive. He was also very young when he started- 15, I think.
Most people agree that Vampire Kisses has an interesting story and a nice plot, but its a bit too cliche for me. Everyone is goth, and the main character just drops names and brands all the time.
b) Meyer, as a new writer, had no previous experience with building characters. She wanted them to be the perfect couple, and so that is what they are. You can see that she did try, but doesn't quite have the experience that some other authors do yet.
c) Teenage female feels lonely and detatched. Mundane high school life. Problems with the family. Crush on hot guy in class. Turns out to be a vampire, etc, etc.
Its not a very good plot, but it is a plot. (I am only considering these parts of the story and ignoring the "climatic" scenes because I assume this is what you're talking about when you say the books have no plot)
okay, here it goes (havent had a good debate for a long time)a) The fact that she is an amateur and naive does not give any excuse at all. A book, is a book. For Twilight to be classified as literature is a huge mistake. Not because i think so, but because of the way it is written. It does not mean if it is the most "brilliant" book in the world, but if the book is badly written, the fans have to realise it. The teachers have to examine it. The grammar is bad, the way she describes is poor. The thesaurus is used wrongly. Therefore, it should not be considered a work of literature. There is no point in saying, she is inexperienced! The real brilliance of someone does not have to be properly trained and polished. JK Rowling was a divorcee and a mother, and she got the idea of Harry potter in a Cafe. Look at Paolini, though he was so young when he began eragon, it is quite well written, though slightly draggy.And it is not too detailed. It is when she flips open a dictionary, she sees the word, heck care what it means, and she add it in. Its like she's saying,
His lips were purple, the darkest violet possible, the richest mix of red and blue, blended together till it looked like velvety indigo.
Get my point?
b)same with the 'no experience'
Very very poor characters. The characters have NO CHANGE WHATSOEVER throughout the 4books. no developement throughout any part of the books. The dialogue is weak. The characters are also dead(not literally), typical, stereotypical and Mary Sue. The relationship had no building up. I think the only ''developement was when she became vampire and described Edward in full detail. *snort. (bet she was going to count each strand of his hair on his head*) Snort* nothing new happens. Except when edward came back...She was like,
"Is this a dream?"
"No bella darling, it is not,"
"No! your lying! I-I dont trust you!"
"Your not dreaming. I love you."
"This is a dream lalela i dont care!"
*Kisses bella*
"Now you think its a dream?"
"Omg EDWARD!"
"Bella!"
*Smacks head*
c)oh yeah you bet? So in these next lines, i will sum up every thing in twilight.
Ohmygosh, i love him.
hahaha James got killed.
He left me:(
I like jacob...
HUZZAH he's back!
EDDY....
Kiss me jake!
Victoria dies..Yays eddykins...
Okay hi eddy. Make loove to meee! Kiill meee...
BABY! I have no idea why i love you baby, but i just love you.
hi renesmee! Beautiful! Prettier pony than eddy!
toodles everyone. got happy ending.
Extremely acurate eh?
NOW WAT PLOT WAS THAT?
there is no plot! NO PLOT! all it is is eddy and bella describing each other!
Okay, look, describe the plot. lets see how long you got. I'll do a harry potter one of the last book.(Eh i 4got alot...) You do all four okay?
...I'm bending over backwards trying to think of retorts in defence of Twilight. I'll reply to this later :P
Zeppelin wrote: "I honestly have nothing better to do today, so humour me :P The hating in this group has reached new heights recently, so I'm hoping to bring a new perspective into this. My entire argument in this..."sigh. I'm in my school library and am bored, but i shall re-butt this first and very very long comment you put at first:
first, the book was not aimed at any audience. Smeyer admitted to have written the book for HERSELF and only HERSELF, based on her DREAM. And the fact that the fans are saying that twilight is a literary genius is what is important, because it shows how much the twilight books have destroyed the world of literature and made students think that it IS perfect literature. I dont care whether smeyer said it was a genius or not, but what of the fans? Their opinions matter greater because it shows the effect of twilight on them!
The vampires in Twilight are NOT original. its BS. Oh please. their not vampires at all. Their meat-eaters. The-end. oh, plus they sparkle.
...
oh man, gtg. gotta go for geog now:(:(
okay, i am back:Twilight IS worse than Harry Potter in every single way. It IS true that they have very different aims (I refuse to use the word 'plots') but look:
Harry potter has...
-a better and much more complicated plot
-much better grammar and language
-much more originality (The spells are cool)
-Much more creativity (Helloo, HOGWARTS!!)
-Much more realistic characters
-gradual developement in characters
-much better friction between rivals
-clearer and gradual developement and trust in relationships
-much more emphasis on values such as love, honesty and friendship.
-much more challenges needed to be overcome by the main character; death of step-father, (ohmygod i cried so hard!!) death of headmaster,(cried as well), knowing his destiny was doomed but facing it with his head held high, temptation of the most powerful wand in existence...much MUCH more.
-much more surprising twists and turns
-extremely well linked and connected parts of the story that are dug up from previous books
Must i go on? Because i assure you i can.
with the bullshit about how kiddos have fantasies of guys etc etc, tell me what exactly is so damn good about edward and what he actually encourages, and i'll re-butt that.
The fact that teachers like twilight tells someone that the teacher is a bad one, one that does not know the true meaning of literature. That is why it is such a big deal. You want to be thought by a brain-washed teacher with bad grammar and who believes in misusing a thesaurus, go ahead.
Think about, hating the people does nothing. And if you hate the people, you know that if there is no book, there is no annoying fangirls, thus no need to hate.Hating twilight is because it is the CAUSE of all this dumbass-ness.
HAHAHAHAHHA. I dare you to ask a guy whether if he would stay a virgin for 107 years if he was the hottest guy in the world and could get any girl, even any filmstar in the world. HAHAHAHA. *Cracks up at the impossibility*
your right, it is Smeyer's DREAM. Its based on HER DREAM, which is completely fine by me. But the fact that she's practically trying to proove that vampires like those in her book CAN EXIST, is what is so damn bullshit. And the fact that fangirls believe it, and believe in MIGHTY EDWARD CULTEN is so...ohmygosh, i cant describe it.
Twilight IS retarded. The language, the grammar, everything. Smeyer is ruining the world of literature! There is no reason why girls should go so crazy about it! Nothing. It encourages everything so wrong, shows and unrealistic world, making girls expect too much from guys etc etc.
gosh. looong speech. and i decided not to write the plots of harry potter...i got tired.
You know the worst bit? I replied to everything, but then I was an ass and managed to lose the post. Ugh. Tell you what- I give up. Twilight is pretty bad. I can't honestly say otherwise, although I still say that we overdo the hating sometimes.
► "Rain: because it is one of the most inexcusable piece of literature ever thought, written, published and read? >.< "
It is not one of the shiniest literary gems out there- but it never claimed to be so. It is, at best, chick lit aimed at teenage girls. It fulfils what it claims to fulfil in that it is entertaining fluff and nothing more. Just because it happens to be a bestselling book does not mean that it is a good book from the deep literary perspective, but it does not mean that it does no good either. People that would not normally read have been induced into reading because of these books. In my eyes, that is always a good thing.
►"Sarah: Because it's the poorest excuse for a novel I have ever had the displeasure of reading. It is nothing but sappy purple prose with too much fluff and not enough substance. It's an embarrassment to vampire literature everywhere. "
Firstly, Twilight is plainly first and foremost a romance novel. In fact, it is a rather original novel if you consider how dark conventional vampire novels are. This is a story that dared to see brutal monsters in a different light. No? You still think that Meyer ruined vampires by making them sparkly? Well, then I'd have to point out that vampires are largely fictional creatures and an author has creative license in her own universe to do as she would like with them. She decided to break away from the dark monsters and make them different. Is originality a disappointment to you?
► "Shlesha: Twilight sucks. Period. And it's now being compared to something as good as Harry Potter which makes me stamp my foot in frustration. "
This may be news to you, but some people really do prefer romance to action-adventure-mystery, which is what Harry Potter is mostly about (I'll grant you that there are elements of romance in Harry Potter, but the books are not primarily romantic stories). Some people just have personal preferences, and if you feel that people who claim Twilight to be the best book ever to be fundamentalist, then you would fair no worse if you claimed otherwise. In the end, it is just personal opinion.
► "Gemma: I think twilight-lovers as blinded by SM portrayal of Edward
If you really study his character, hes a real creeper!! (i.e. Watching people when they sleep)
There is no way in hell I would want a boyfriend to be like Edward! "
Some girls at a young age have a fantasy: the perfect boyfriend that listens, loves you, takes care of you, a perfect white wedding, jeans that always fit perfectly and hair that never sticks to their lip gloss. That is all it is, though. As they grow, they mature and understand that a relationship with such a person will just not work. Indeed, most grown woman that enjoy the book understand very well that they could never really live through eternity with an Edward without pulling their hair out, but this does not keep them from temporary fantasies of their husbands being a little nicer sometimes. Tea in bed on Sundays and surprise gifts of flowers don't hurt at all. This is nothing more than a passing fancy, a fleeting indulgence. Obviously, no rational independent woman would ever want to be stalked and proclaim that to be love. It is really quite pointless to delve into the depths of a pre-teen/teen chick lit bonanza and expect to find philosophical meanings of what women want. It is just fantasy, through and through.
►"(deleted member) One reason that I really despise this book is because of the type of people it draws. My 11th grade English teacher stressed to us all year that we should only read for scholarly merit, and that it was the only way to thoroughly enjoy a novel. This year I found out her favorite book series is Twilight."
Obviously, I would disagree with this notion as much as you would, but perhaps we shouldn't dismiss it so. Maybe your teacher meant something else and just put it differently. Maybe she meant to say something like "Even if you are reading a book casually, make sure you keep an open, critical mind and analyze it so as to gain maximum benefit from it."
As for her favourite books being Twilight- so what? Why judge people like that? Anyway, these things keep changing. My favourite author, favourite book, favourite song, etc are never constant and change as I grow (physically, as time passes by, and intellectually, as I find newer and more interesting things)
► "GreenDaisy BlackStem: I HATE IT BECAUSE EVERYONE RELATES EVERYTHING TO IT!!!!!! EVERYTHING "
Hate the people, then. You are most obviously frustrated with the way people are behaving. Hating a book and blaming it is pretty pointless.
►"Rose: XD If anyone has a good scientific mind and a good sense of humor would simply laugh at those books every time they saw it. I'd say its me but I don't have a very scietific mind. XP "
I disagree :P I DO think you have a scientific mind. In such a case, the books are providing amusement to these people and hence it would be, ah, unscientific and illogical for them to hate it.
► "Chandani (on hating Edward): Yeah. Also because hes wel...dead.
And hes a 107 year old virgin!! *breaks out into laughter* ITS CUZ HES SO AWKWARD!!!!! HAHAHAHAAH! "
Remember- Edward is shown to be highly virtuous. Meyer, as a mormon, believes in abstinence. Hence, Edward must abstain. Also, after being dead, excessively beautiful and brooding (to an extent as to appear intimidating), and face temptation in the proximity of human blood will not exactly help you get laid anyway. Anyway, why would you hate anybody for being a virgin? That is kind of morally unsound.
► "¢нυя¢н яανєη**: Okay I just realized Stephenie is now wrong in so many levels. Maybe the fake knowledge of vampirism sent her to make some kind of "unbelieveable miracle" that a vampire, undead and all, could have a half blooded fully operational and non-disabled child. "
This is no more unprobable than superman, spiderman, werewolves, fairies...I could go on. The fact is, this is entirely a work of fiction and Meyer has absolute creative authority in her Twilight universe. If she claimed that these rules applied in the real world it would be another matter entirely. She did not.
► "Sheeky: I hate Twilight because it's frikin retarded and people make such big deal over it when it isn't that great! "
This is your opinion- obviously, you have read better books and expect more out of what you read. Not all readers are as discerning as you are and have very low expectations. The logical path from now on would lead you to have contempt for such people (if indeed you find this to be an appropriate thing to do), and not for the book.
► "Saved by Grace: That's the point. I don't want to read angst. And pretty much everyone wishes they weren't going to hell. "
Firstly, in a typical romantic novel one can expect at least a certain amount of angst. In a vampire novel, doubly so because of all the romantic conflict involved. Why are you reading a romantic vampire novel in the first place, then, if you don't want to read angst?
Also, I'm atheist, so the question of going to hell is completely irrelevant to me since I don't believe it exists :>
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