Hugo & Nebula Awards: Best Novels discussion
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Mirror Dance
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Vorkosigan 9 -- Mirror Dance --note--numbers are OUR reading order only
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Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning
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Mar 11, 2020 04:27PM
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This book reminded me of why I love Bujold so much. She puts in little details about people and events, and then you remember and smile! And she doesn't give you this whole big expository chunk of info that you need to know what is going on. Instead, she gives just enough detail about past events and people.
Anyway, I always love best the (view spoiler)--that's probably why her books are my favorites
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I think, anyway . . .
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But then again Mark was wonderfully complex character. At first he seemed like a obsessive and driven revenge-lusting antihero, then he revealed himself to be a complete screw-up, but just as you started to feel sorry for the poor guy, there was the scene with Maree and you lost a lot of sympathy with him - but not all, since you could see he was seriously messed up in the head himself. And then he slowly grew on Barrayar and gained the confidence to return to Jackson's Whole. And I loved how Bujold didn't simply let Mark ride to JW and rescue Miles flawlessly: no, he failed again and faced a fate worse than death - but managed to triumph after all. This was such a roller-coast ride!
Once again Bujold pulls off that moral gray area thing of hers perfectly.
Antti wrote: "Once again Bujold pulls off that moral gray area thing of hers perfectly."Agreed! Mark is an idiot and a fuckup and an asshole, and yet, I still felt about it the way I would if my younger brother was all of those things, rooting for him: 'C'mon, dude, you're better than this!'
This was the 1995 Hugo Novel winner. I think this book really does deserve to win a popularity award like the Hugo, it's a great read, but I've not even heard of the other four books it was up against, although I recognise the names of Nancy Kress and Michael Bishop. Has anybody read any of the runners up and were they any good, or did Mirror Dance walk into the winner slot that year?
Mother of Storms
Beggars and Choosers
Brittle Innings
Towing Jehovah
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Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning
(last edited Jun 08, 2020 07:09AM)
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A side note: sexuality/sex-related topics (like everything else) is well written, but here for the first time I noted the drawback of some books by male authors, commented over the net - obsession with female breasts. While I haven't really read it in books I read, I quite often see quotes in media like this https://www.buzzfeed.com/farrahpenn/h... (the first Google link to "men writers about breasts"). In this book Mark is extremely conscious about breasts, first Thorne's then clone's. I think maybe Bujold hints on his lack of mother.
Then there is quite fast escalation toward sex between Miles and his doctor. Do you think if a male writer wrote that he'd be accused in lack of respect toward his female characters, concentrating on external?
Oleksandr wrote: "In this book Mark is extremely conscious about breasts, first Thorne's then clone's. I think maybe Bujold hints on his lack of mother."I think it works here because it's clear that obsession with breasts is Mark's obsession. It gets creepy when it's the omniscient narrator constantly harping on about female characters breasts because then, as the reader, you feel like you've suddenly glimpsed into the author's preferences which have no place in the novel. Some of the examples in that article sound like they come from men who have never met a woman!
Oleksandr wrote: "Then there is quite fast escalation toward sex between Miles and his doctor. Do you think if a male writer wrote that he'd be accused in lack of respect toward his female characters, concentrating on external?"
That's a really interesting question. Bujold is pretty good at character, and with Miles in particular she often shows how, despite his insecurities, his good nature makes him more attractive to women than he realises. I think if an author can show why a woman would feel safe immediately falling into bed with a man then it works. I'm racking my brains trying to think of any example of a fast relationship written by a man for contrast, and I can't think of a single one now!
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I think the sexual contact by Miles and his doc is actually the doc's fault. She was glad to see it arise, as I recall. Miles had amnesia, and the doctor encouraged him. So the whole thing is easily explained to me.
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Yes, she was definitely willing. It just reminded me of James Bond and its copycats, where the hero is just irresistible :)
Just finished and I loved loved this one. My favourite featuring Miles for sure. My review is here if anyone wants to read my complete deep thoughts. (It's far too long and rambling to paste in here!) I loved how a lot of the action was back on Barrayar. I much prefer that setting to space, I admit. And Cordelia and Aral were back with more than a passing mention!!! Yay!
On discussions of Miles and Rowan above - I have a couple of thoughts. One is that I think LMB had never fully fleshed out Ellie and I wonder if she was always only meant to be a temporary character. Despite her featuring in a few books now, I don't feel like I know her. I said previously that I thought she was a poor copy of Elena and that idea was even brought up in this book. As such, I think LMB might have decided to lessen her role in the series and, instead of killing her off, she's had Miles break her heart. I could be completely wrong but I don't think she'll be a lead character from now on.
I also think that was one of the major plot points with Miles - him realising he might just need someone in his life for keeps who not only accepts him due to his disabilities but accepts both his personas; someone who will understand the loyalty and love he has for Barrayar also and again, this is not Ellie.
Could a male writer pull off the jumping into bed together scene as well as a female writer? I think it depends on the writer and the character, to be honest. LMB can tackle the most controversial ideas with such ease. I think Miles is respectful of the women involved and that's probably the difference and the sex was not just shoved in there to give the reader a cheap thrill but to show us how mixed up Miles was and as a reflection of Mark's sex issues (Miles is obviously quite good at satisfying his partner). I also appreciated that both Miles and Rowan realised later they are not at all compatible and that the sex wasn't a mistake, per se, but that they would not be advancing the relationship any further when they get out of their tight spot.
I will miss Bel. I'll probably miss him/her more than Ellie, should she disappear.
I got very teary more than once reading this book. All the parts about Miles's grandfather... *sniff* And Illyan and Ivan's reactions when they think Miles is dead... *sniff* Let alone Aral and Cordelia's! Again, not to harp (but I guess I am), the only character that didn't really move me with their reaction was Ellie.
I have to say that once again I feel Ron Moore definitely read these books before writing BSG. The doctor clones had a real Cylon feel to them.
Oh! And I wanted to add re Miles/Rowan sex - she definitely seduced him and you have to wonder about her motivations. She obviously cared little about the doctor/patient balance tipping her way. She'd operated on him and basically brought him back to life. Was she on some sort of high from that? Seeing him as her creation almost? I think there's a lot more questions regarding her behaviour than his.
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And I fully agree that LMB can tackle the most controversial ideas with such ease.
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I think, once again, it just helps to show that current sexual mores are not universal. After all, even though she's a nice person, Jackson's Hole and clone. It almost seemed like an ongoing therapy between Dr. and patient.
Kateblue wrote: "Lee wrote: "Oh! And I wanted to add re Miles/Rowan sex - she definitely seduced him and you have to wonder about her motivations. She obviously cared little about the doctor/patient balance tipping..."Maybe. I guess I am often looking at things from Miles's point of view and it is stated that Barrayar have old fashioned views on most things, including sex.
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Surely if they fell back into a man-dominating-women culture, there must have been reasons, and I would be fascinated to read about that time. BUT I'm willing to just accept Bujold's construct and go with it.
The old fashioned-ness is (not so quickly) going away. Besides, it makes great barriers for the female characters to overcome for us. Look at how far they have come just since Shards of Honor!
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I think there is a bunch of theories about why every medieval-tech society on Earth (across the globe, different religions, etc) were more or less male-dominated. I guess high infant mortality and therefore constant pregnancies are at least partially responsible. However, there were notable differences, e.g. in whether women can inherit.
@ Antti -Of those 4 links.. I can definitely recommend Brittle Innings... it a stealth sequel to Frankenstein, where he becomes a minor league baseball player :)
As far as this book goes, I still don't like Mark, but there was more Cordelia here than there's been in a long time and that was very good indeed.
The story moved along nicely, and I did like the 'black gang' torture avoidance... very interesting indeed.
Hopefully, Mark can now just sit at his desk and be in a couple scenes and not bother me anymore... I just don't really need him to be a main character. (I'm pretty sure that's not what happens, but I guy can dream)
I'll miss Bel, but I think it was a logical conclusion to her time in the Dendarii... the company really isn't big enough for her and Quinn, so one of them had to go.
I hope this is the last abuse of Miles... it's bordering on Harry Dresden levels of abuse here.. I don't really need him to have this keep happening.
My main worry is the foreshadowing when Cordelia mentioned that she would worry about Miles when he 'lost the little Admiral'... that felt like forshadowing to me, and I don't like it!
Anyway, the library is now about 1/2 way back to pre-covid levels of effeciency in getting holds, so I should able to get to the next one soon!
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The first act of Mirror Dance was by far the most stressed out I've been in reading a Vorkosigan novel, with Barrayar's climax sequence a distant second. I almost couldn't keep reading as I was thinking to myself "RED FLAG STOP ALARM BELLS MARK DON'T DO IT YOU DUMBASS."
But every act of this book was great in its own way. I, too, was very happy to spend more substantive time with Cordelia and Aral. I suspect we won't be getting much more time with them given their advanced age (or at least with Aral, because I've heard Cordelia is the protagonist of Gentleman Jole).
I really enjoyed the parts with Cordelia and Mark's POV here. They were better than what I've read so far in Miles books. But the James Bond like 'heroine harem' of Miles is so offputting for me by this time that I dread to read more Miles centered books. ^^'
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Yes, they made a great return. As for the harem, I guess the author's intentions were good, to show that even a disabled person (or at least with problems) can still fund a partner if they are smart and witty.
@Oleksandr: if he had one partner that would be wonderfully fine with me, but it feels like every woman or hermaphrodite wants to get into his pants and that is so clichéd that it severely collides with my reading experience.
Well, he usually is a great guy to them first and does really nice things (e.g. saves their lives, gives them a future and opportunities) so it's not like they throw themselves at him without him having proved himself a true friend, right? But I'll think you'll like A Civil Campaign when he finally finds someone who accepts all of him, including the Barrayaran lord, not just the charming admiral he more plays then is.
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Except for a doctor during his "re-birth" :) but as noted above, she had her reasons.
Just to inform Gabi: it seems that "harem" will play almost zero role in the next books, at least this is true for the next two.
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Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning
(last edited Aug 20, 2020 07:34AM)
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Miles had an unrequited love with Elena for the first several Miles books. He had nobody--that we are told about, anyway-- until he makes love to Taura under fraught circumstances in Labyrinth. Then Quinn, who has been lusting after him with good reason for years, finally reels him in during Brothers in Arms. And finally, a doctor, while he has amnesia in this one, Mirror Dance. Not his fault. And he has to find a Lady Vorkosigan someday. That's a given.
To me, that does not seem to constitute a harem. It's not even very many lovers in some cultures considering he's almost 30. In fact, I think it is weird that, given his Betan mother, he doesn't take a chance on Bel. And that he seems so weirded out by the thought of sex with a hermaphrodite.
Now, Ivan, there's somebody who could collect a harem!
Gabi, I'm sorry you don't like Miles. I like him better. later on, myself. But if you quit now, you won't get there. :-)
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I never thought of that, and you are totally right re medical ethics.
But I didn't realize the Escobar course was medical ethics. I thought it was about reviving a frozen person, which is why what's-his-name thought to mail Miles to her.
I don't feel like going back and looking at what the Escobar course's of study was. I guess it doesn't matter because still medically unethical. Tho' still Jackson's Whole :-) She's just checking to see if his recovery is complete!
Kalin wrote: "What really got my eyes rolling about the sickbed romance with the doctor, was she had literally just finished telling him she was on Escobar studying medical ethics, and then proceeds to sleep with her patient."Haha - that's so true and I hadn't even thought about it!
Kateblue wrote: "To me, that does not seem to constitute a harem."
Yes, I agree with this. Miles isn't a lady's man - he's a man whose charisma overcomes his deformities to make him attractive to some. He has a moderate amount of success and failure in love - and a great big teenage neurosis about talking to girls - it's lovely to see him grow out of it over the books.
I think it's pretty clear in the next few books too that Miles doesn't realise how charismatic and oddly attractive he can be. It's actually quite a theme, how some of the other characters are completely jealous of the way everyone gravitates towards him. Obviously, given his inner thoughts, he has no idea.
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I agree that LMB is great at writing grey area issues, the fact that they feature so often in this book is to its credit. As for the characters themselves, they still appear pretty much single layered, the experiences they have are for the most part direct results of the preceding events. I do not feel that there's much complexity, mostly because issues are tackled one at a time. I like how Mark grew from a hollow husk of a person to someone caring and honorable, though the progression seemed at times forced. I also got annoyed by his being called Lord Mark by everyone towards to end of the book, including the narrator.
Overall a very pleasurable read, to describe my reaction to it in one word (but with LMB's definition of it): bemused.
Mark definitely has alot of character development... I don't really like him, but one can't deny he's a well developed and interesting character. He's being called 'Lord' because he was officially adopted, so that's his title as a son of a Lord on Barrayar. The hired help and such call Miles 'Lord Miles' as well.
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Art, Stay home, stay safe.
(last edited Nov 02, 2020 04:07PM)
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Joe, not to be too much of a pedant, but let the following sink in:
In all books preceding the Mirror Dance "Lord Miles" appears a total of 14 times. 13 out of those in dialogues, over half of which is pure presentation: "Lord Miles Vorkosigan". The last 14th appears in his inner monologue. So considering how many books there are it was an average of 3 times per book.
"Lord Mark" appears 77 times in one book alone.
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While you're at it, enlighten us in the general thread how much Miles is used and Admiral Naismith were used, please in different books
Art wrote: "Joe wrote: "He's being called 'Lord' because he was officially adopted, so that's his title as a son of a Lord on Barrayar. The hired help and such call Miles 'Lord Miles' as well..."Joe, not to ..."
I would say that characters are using Mark's title for a few different reasons. Some are using it to make sure he knows he is accepted and is officially a Vorkosigan. Some are using it to remind themselves. Some are using it to be sarcastic. The last one is why characters often use it when addressing Miles; especially when they believe him to be entitled and are ignorant to his exploits.
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Why?
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I agree, there are multiple reasons and the progression of the title from being a snide, sarcastic remark "Lord" Mark which was used to underline that he was an impostor, to one where you could feel the whole Vor stand behind his "Lord Mark Pierre Vorkosigan" was great. My original point was that by the end of the book is started getting on my nerves. Especially with the narrator overusing it, something that was completely unnecessary and scathing to read.
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I was just curious, maybe the name in general was used more rarely in earlier volume. No need to do it if you don't want to spend time :)
Miles wasn't often being himself when in the early books, so that doesn't really apply. Also, he really didn't have much respect until he earned it, so people didn't really use his title, though I bet 'Mutie Lord' was used a fair bit ;)I have similar thoughts to Lee.. with the addition that Mark was hanging around the house with servants alot, so of course THEY call him 'Lord'.. Miles has never been much of a home body.
I feel like they use his title alot more in the last couple books.... it actually stuck out at me in Diplomatic Immunity. Let us know if you notice, or it sticks out to you... I'm curious if it's just me!
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To be fair, Miles' title isn't "Lord Miles"; it's "Lord Vorkosigan" (since he's the heir to the title; Mark isn't, and that's why he's Lord Mark).
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To be fair, Miles' title isn't "Lord Miles"; it's "Lord Vorkosigan" (since he's the heir to the title;..."
Throughout the books Lord Vorkosigan is almost exclusively used for Aral Vorkosigan. Lord Miles Vorkosigan was much more common, but then again I spent whole 40 seconds using the search feature so I'm hardly an expert on the subject.
Anywho, my point was that by the end of the book Lord Mark was used even in attributions which threw me off, highlighting the overused term. Not that I care who is called which way.
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If I want to be generous, I could say that LMB uses "Lord Mark" to underline the transition from Mark-the-screwup-clone to Lord Mark Vorkosigan, a person in his own right, who has grewn (in more ways than one!) during the book. And then she got carried away with it
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Yup
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Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning
(last edited Nov 17, 2020 02:31PM)
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Miles not being called Lord too often makes sense, actually, because he was called by his military rank mostly, whether true or invented, and then he was called "Lord Auditor" He cares about his work more than his title and always has his work to be called by the title of.
A think I find weirder and less explained is the political spies that disappeared after the first book.
Also, how did Barraryar get to keep Sergyar when they lost the Escobarrian War? She sorta tries to explain that somewhere. Still unlikely
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The political officers, who e.g. ordered the massacre on Komarr? I think it was mentioned in Barrayar that Aral disbanded them when he became Regent.
"Also, how did Barraryar get to keep Sergyar when they lost the Escobarrian War?"
Cant' remember all the details, but Barrayar didn't surrender after the debacle on Escobar: they made peace. Aral got famous by managing an orderly retreat from Escobar, so their space navy was still more-or-less intact after the retreat. That would've made invasion into Sergyaran space much more difficult for Escobarans.
That's why I find it completely plausible that Barrayar still held Sergyar after the war: after all, they had made the first claim on the planet, not to mention they had a military presence on the system.
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Yes, but it still seems quick and convenient. I think Bujold realized it was not the greatest organization and just swept them under the rug. But still . . . political organizations don't usually die so easily. Though the old emperor probably wanted them gone, as well. Which would have helped. As would the total clusterf**k that was the Escobarran invasion.
And thanks, Antti, for the thoughts on the way the war went--that explains why they got to keep it. Apparently other readers had raised this question too. SOMEWHERE there's a mention of it. Just a sentence. Maybe in Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen. It's just a mention like the political officers organization being disbanded.
New question for pondering . . . Why do the names Komarr, Escobar, and Barrayar seem more alike than they should for three random planets near each other in the wormhole map? Were they settled by the same ethnic group?
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Barrayar was settled by several ethnic groups, so this doesn't work. Let's see how names are set in this universe. Cetagenda - I guess based near Tau Ceta star. Jackson Whole there was some mention but I cannot recall.
All three (Komarr, Escobar, and Barrayar) and with sound -ar, yes, but so are Berlin, Dublin and Tallinn (even tree-letter sound), so this happens "naturally" in our world as well
Hugo & Nebula Awards: Best Novels
Books mentioned in this topic
Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen (other topics)Barrayar (other topics)
Shards of Honor (other topics)
Mother of Storms (other topics)
Beggars and Choosers (other topics)
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