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The Monday Poem (old)
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Our Winter Poet: T.S. Eliot 'The Waste Land' 21st December - 20th March
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I read The Waste Land and some other poetry by Eliot this year and found it surprisingly accessible and enjoyable. I look forward to reading more!And for those who are not usually poetry readers, I encourage you to try his Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats (the book the musical Cats was based on) -- easy to read and understand with plenty of humor. Try getting a copy with the Edward Gorey cartoon drawings :)
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And for those who are not usually p..."
Didn't know it Leslie. I'll have to look for it
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Greg wrote: "I have the Gorey one you're talking about Leslie. Fun! :)"In somewhat stereotypical spinster manner, I read them aloud to my cat! :D
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I'm joining in! I won't be able to start for a few days yet but I'm in! :DI'm looking forward to reading & discussing this with everyone.
I bought a lovely copy of this. Will read it when I get home.
I would also highly recommend The Old Possum Book of Practical Cats. I read it at school and also saw the musical
I would also highly recommend The Old Possum Book of Practical Cats. I read it at school and also saw the musical
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I would also highly recommend The Old Possum Book of Practical Cats. I read it at school and also saw the musical"
Found it so I'll be reading it along with The waste land!
I'm reading it. Looking forward to the discussion. TS Eliot is someone I have not read a lot of - just the Old Possum Book of Practical Cats, which is very accessible and I do love.
Leslie wrote: "Greg wrote: "I have the Gorey one you're talking about Leslie. Fun! :)"In somewhat stereotypical spinster manner, I read them aloud to my cat! :D"
I'm tickled to know others have done this : )
I've read The Waste Land various times over the years. Probably 8-10 years ago last tho. I'm ready for a re-read and will join in here.
I got Collected Poems, 1909-1962 by Eliot from the library the other day -- I will be rereading 'The Waste Land' but wanted to also read some more of his other poetry. I skipped ahead (chronologically speaking) to this seasonally appropriate one:The Journey of the Magi
'A cold coming we had of it,
Just the worst time of the year
For a journey, and such a long journey:
The ways deep and the weather sharp,
The very dead of winter.'
And the camels galled, sore-footed, refractory,
Lying down in the melting snow.
There were times we regretted
The summer palaces on the slopes, the terraces,
And the silken girls bringing sherbet.
Then the camel men cursing and grumbling
And running away, and wanting their liquor and women,
And the night-fires going out, and the lack of shelters,
And the cities hostile and the towns unfriendly
And the villages dirty and charging high prices:
A hard time we had of it.
At the end we preferred to travel all night,
Sleeping in snatches,
With the voices singing in our ears, saying
That this was all folly.
Then at dawn we came down to a temperate valley,
Wet, below the snow line, smelling of vegetation,
With a running stream and a water-mill beating the darkness,
And three trees on the low sky.
And an old white horse galloped away in the meadow.
Then we came to a tavern with vine-leaves over the lintel,
Six hands at an open door dicing for pieces of silver,
And feet kicking the empty wine-skins.
But there was no information, and so we continued
And arrived at evening, not a moment too soon
Finding the place; it was (you may say) satisfactory.
All this was a long time ago, I remember,
And I would do it again, but set down
This set down
This: were we lead all that way for
Birth or Death? There was a Birth, certainly,
We had evidence and no doubt. I had seen birth and death,
But had thought they were different; this Birth was
Hard and bitter agony for us, like Death, our death.
We returned to our places, these Kingdoms,
But no longer at ease here, in the old dispensation,
With an alien people clutching their gods.
I should be glad of another death.
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Only three things I can think of.
1. In some non-biblical myths, the three wise men were later martyred. Are they having a premonition? See "Martyrdom Traditions" at http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblic...
2. Is this a premonition on their part of Christ's crucifixion? But that doesn't make sense because why would that feel like "our death"
3. Do they somehow feel shut out from the "New Life" Christ offered? I guess this seems most likely given the last 3 lines. After going back, they feel alien among their own people as if they don't belong; they're ill at ease among their own people who are "clutching their gods," presumably the ones the wise men were worshipping before they left to follow the star.
I guess I've talked myself into #3. Kind of a depressing poem when I look at it that way. I would've hoped there would've been a secret joy in their hearts instead.
The sentiment reminds me a bit of "Crusoe in England" by Elizabeth Bishop. Much as the wise men in this one, Bishop's Crusoe feels like an alien among his own people when he returns to England because no one around him can understand what he's experienced on the island. I guess I can understand the perspective of Bishop's Crusoe more than Eliot's wise men though.
Greg wrote: "I like this poem Leslie, but it puzzles me. Why does Christ's birth feel to the wise men like their death? In the biblical account, they're overcome with joy at finding the baby, but in this versio..."I interpreted it to mean they were having premonitions about the death of their previous way of life -- the death of the "old" religions in the face of Christianity. Seeing Christ changed them so much that they didn't fit in with their previous existence anymore... so yes, your option #3. I don't think that they necessarily feel "shut out" from what Christ offered but that accepting that 'new life' separated them from their own people in a way they couldn't bridge.
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Thanks for your insight Leslie! :)
So seems the last line "I should be glad of another death" could refer to why he'd be glad if these now unacceptable gods were to die out. The continued existence of other gods means that these people have yet to find life in Christ - to die and be reborn. He may also realize the potential for future conflict over religious differences. I suppose it's possible he could also be referring to Christ's coming death - because His death will provide atonement. I like that poetry allows for layers of understanding like this. I'm not commenting on whether TS Eliot's views were/are correct. Just trying to understand his point of view.
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@Sandy, certainly possible, that's partly what I meant by possibility #1 (the martyrdom of the kings), but I think you express it much better than me! :) The Bible doesn't say such a martyrdom occurred, but it doesn't say it didn't happen either.
@Tejas Janet, I like your reading! No doubt, there certainly was an extraordinary amount of bloodshed that did come afterwards: first pagans persecuting Christians, then a bit later but just as bloodthirstily, Christians persecuting pagans; after that successive waves of Catholics persecuting Protestants and vice versa, depending on the current king or queen. A great many deaths! Eliot may indeed be suggesting some of that.
Still, for myself, I think since it says "our death", I'm more inclined to read it as something personal to the three kings. And since it says "hard and bitter agony for us," I wouldn't necessarily think he's referring to being born again, since for people who believe in that, it's usually not something they'd consider with such bitterness.
My first reading, I read the final line "I should be glad of another death" as something akin to, I'd rather be dead that live through this. Your alternate reading of the last line is intriguing though, and goodness knows I'm no expert. It fits just as well. If the old gods die, they could perhaps fit in their old cultures again. Hmm. What do others think?
Really interesting discussion. I always like to hear the poet's voice, and reading of a poem. Here is a link to a TS Eliot reading Journey of the Magi: http://www.poetryarchive.org/poem/jou...It is a bit old fashioned - naturally - but worthwhile to listen to, I think.
Having listened to The Journey of the Magi a few times now, here are some of my thoughts.While the tone is somewhat bleak, I feel it is more journey weary than despairing. I think the key to this is in this section:
All this was a long time ago, I remember,
And I would do it again, but set down
This set down
This: were we lead all that way for
Birth or Death?
There is definitely the sense of alienation for the Magi from their past lives, as there often is for travellers who return - a new perception makes accepting everything, as you did in the past, difficult. And yet, they would not have missed the journey. So, there is the evidence that it was worthwhile.
I keep thinking that it is also a metaphor for life, and the circle of life. As we journey through our lives we learn things about ourselves, and the world, and you can't unlearn those things. They colour our perception of everything, for better or worse.
The Magi sense they are a part of the old world, and accept it is time for that to pass. There must be some regret. I think the image of the three trees on the low sky, and the white horse running away is so powerful. In this poem, death is not a bad thing; it is a natural evolution from one age to another...
My apologies if these thoughts seem a little muddled. They are reactions I am mulling through... Thank you so much for sharing this poem, Leslie!
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Perhaps that makes Tejas Janet's reading of the last line the more reasonable one?
I'm getting a lot out of this discussion!
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I wasted a good hour on The Waste Land. A reactionary modernist mess.
Gregory wrote: "I wasted a good hour on The Waste Land. A reactionary modernist mess."Sorry you didn't like it. Personally, regardless of what sort of person Eliot was, I didn't see anything in the poem that struck me as reactionary. Would you care to elaborate, keeping strictly to the text?
Leslie wrote: "Gregory wrote: "I wasted a good hour on The Waste Land. A reactionary modernist mess."
Sorry you didn't like it. Personally, regardless of what sort of person Eliot was, I didn't see anything in..."
It is an offence to humanist values all round.
Sorry you didn't like it. Personally, regardless of what sort of person Eliot was, I didn't see anything in..."
It is an offence to humanist values all round.
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I find that the broken senteces, the description of the human stream coming out of the undreground as if deprived of their human characteristics was really responding to the time he was writing it.
I personally don't see how he could find the answer in religion as he did later on, but this is out of his writings
LauraT wrote: "No, I don't agree. The time he was writing was an offence to humanist values, and worst was to come!
I find that the broken senteces, the description of the human stream coming out of the undregrou..."
Of course, his low opinion of the liberated woman in the poem is totally modern; and his opinions of Jews are totally liberating. haha
I find that the broken senteces, the description of the human stream coming out of the undregrou..."
Of course, his low opinion of the liberated woman in the poem is totally modern; and his opinions of Jews are totally liberating. haha
Gregory wrote: "LauraT wrote: "No, I don't agree. The time he was writing was an offence to humanist values, and worst was to come!
I find that the broken senteces, the description of the human stream coming out o..."
But what the heck, he wrote nice poems of cats.
I find that the broken senteces, the description of the human stream coming out o..."
But what the heck, he wrote nice poems of cats.
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I found a couple of interesting, contrasting articles about Eliot and anti-semitism if anybody is interested.
http://www.theimaginativeconservative...
http://forward.com/articles/142722/ts...?
I am definitely not an Eliot scholar and haven't started the Wasteland yet but I found these articles interesting
http://www.theimaginativeconservative...
http://forward.com/articles/142722/ts...?
I am definitely not an Eliot scholar and haven't started the Wasteland yet but I found these articles interesting
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I appreciate the links to articles that others have shared. I'd like to share a link as well. It has the complete audio of "The Wasteland" read by Jeremy Irons and Eileen Atkins. They really bring it to life for me. It's preceded by an introductory discussion by various poets that I found quite insightful. http://jeremyirons.net/2012/03/28/jer...
Btw, I think The Wasteland is very much a "reactionary modernist mess." But then that's rather the whole point of it, isn't it? Eliot's writing of the poem is a reaction to the aftermath of the second world war and the cultural "shell shock" that it entailed. The poem has many voices in it, many points of view, but the reader shouldn't confuse anyone of them for Eliot himself.
I am pretty sure "The Wasteland" was written in the 1920s (before WW2) as it is in the public domain. Did you mean the first world war when you said: "Eliot's writing of the poem is a reaction to the aftermath of the second world war and the cultural "shell shock" that it entailed."?I have been reading from his Four Quartets and really liked the first poem, BURNT NORTON (1936). I will see if I can find a link somewhere...
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Tejas Janet wrote: "I appreciate the links to articles that others have shared. I'd like to share a link as well. It has the complete audio of "The Wasteland" read by Jeremy Irons and Eileen Atkins. They really bring ..."Thanks for the link, I'm looking forward to listening to it,
Leslie wrote: "I am pretty sure "The Wasteland" was written in the 1920s (before WW2) as it is in the public domain. Did you mean the first world war when you said: "Eliot's writing of the poem is a reaction to ..."You're absolutely correct. I "misspoke" and should have said aftermath of first world war. Thank you for catching this.
Greg, yes I've read before that Ezra Pound HEAVILY edited the poem, cutting huge chucks out. Can't remember where I've read that either though!
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It disturbs me a little that the last time I read this poem I felt like I had a firm handle on it. Perhaps I need to spend more time, or perhaps my brain has decayed over the last decade :) Let's hope for the former!
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@Laura, you asked why 'April is the cruelest month.' I'm still fuzzy, but this is my amateur take as to what I think Eliot means by the line specifically in this poem:
In winter, the emotions and memories are deadened to hope but also to pain as well ("covering Earth in forgetful snow"). One has gotten used to surviving on very little ("feeding / A little life with dried tubers"). It's bad but no longer painful because one has gotten used to it.
But then spring comes, and that anesthetic
relief is removed. One has to contend with the pain of awakening in a terrible state ("in dead land"). The water is enough to revive sensation but not enough to slake thirst or heal the many months of lack. Metaphorically, spring is the time when desires are revived but in Eliot's poem perhaps without any hope of fulfilling them ("mixing / Memory and desire, stirring / Dull roots").
Possibly he also refers to memories of youthful possibilities which are now past and can't be recovered. Spring revives these memories, but they're painful because the speaker is unable have such experiences anymore. Perhaps the speaker feels he is too old to have more of these experiences, or perhaps he just feels his life is too withered to ever fully revive.
I'm reading The Annotated Waste Land at the moment. Really interesting with some of Eliot's contemporary prose and a description of Pound's extensive editing. Still making my way through, but I think it has enriched my reading of the poem a lot.
To those who are intimidated by "The Waste Land" (or just uninterested), I will again suggest some of Eliot's lighter poems. Here is a link to "Macavity, The Mystery Cat".I also enjoyed his so-called "minor" poems, which are fairly short. I particularly liked "Cape Ann", which is a coastal area near Salem Mass. (perhaps because I know the area or perhaps due to all the birds!):
Cape Ann
O quick quick quick, quick hear the song-sparrow,
Swamp-sparrow, fox-sparrow, vesper-sparrow
At dawn and dusk. Follow the dance
Of the goldfinch at noon. Leave to chance
The Blackburnian warbler, the shy one. Hail
With shrill whistle the note of the quail, the bob-white
Dodging by bay-bush. Follow the feet
Of the walker, the water-thrush. Follow the flight
of the dancing arrow, the purple martin. Greet
In silence the bullbat. All are delectable. Sweet sweet sweet
But resign this land at the end, resign it
To its true owner, the tough one, the sea-gull.
The palaver is finished.
Oh and here is a link to "Burnt Norton" from The Four Quartets:http://famouspoetsandpoems.com/poets/...
I am starting to read this tonight, and to warm up so to speak Ijust read a really interesting article about Eliot in the Guardian by his biographer Robert Crawford. His book Young Eliot: A Biography will be published on the 5th of February apparently. It speaks about a few things discussed here, including his alleged anti-semitism: http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015...
Jenny wrote: "I am starting to read this tonight, and to warm up so to speak Ijust read a really interesting article about Eliot in the Guardian by his biographer Robert Crawford. His book [book:..."Thanks for this link Jenny - I've been looking for something a bit succinct to get a bit more of an idea of TS Eliot. The Annotated Waste Land has also been interesting.
I intend to take part by reading something, but so far that's as far as I've actually got! Maybe it will be February before I start.
I have just got his Selected Poems out from the library, so will be reading these over the next few weeks.
All About Books
Books mentioned in this topic
The Waste Land (other topics)The Waste Land and Other Poems (other topics)
Murder in the Cathedral (other topics)
Anna Karenina (other topics)
Murder in the Cathedral (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
W.S. Merwin (other topics)Robert Crawford (other topics)
Robert Crawford (other topics)
Ezra Pound (other topics)
The Waste Land can be found here for free download in several formats
If you would like some accompanying notes on Eliot's life, poetry and The Waste Lands in particular there's Sparknotes to help you.
And of course a good bio and a few poems of him can be found on Poetry Foundation's website