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The Signature of All Things
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Part 3- The Disturbance of Messages
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Irene
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Dec 14, 2014 04:09PM
Part 3
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I feel a bit badly for Alma who seems rather trapped as this spinster caring for her father. But, I also feel badly for Hanneke who is also a spinster with no connections, taken from her homeland because her mistress chooses to wed a foreigner. Alma has her family name, her leisure to study mosses, the opportunity to publish. Hanneke only toils away. And why is her bed chamber behind some sort of caging. Ambrose seems like a mixed bag. He gives Alma something to live for, stirs up in her some zest for life. But he is odd. I saw the problems in the marriage long before Alma did, ever since the telepathic communication in the binding room. And, what to make of that. Why would a rational mind like Alma fall prey to such lunacy?
These parts seem to be creating a bell curv in their length. The first and fifth are significantly shorter than the second and fourth. This one is longer than any other. It is obviously the pivital point in Alma's life.
Mod
Alma postulates that there exist a variety of times, ranging from Human Time to Divine Time, with Geological Time and Moss Time as points in between (pp. 170–71). How might these different notions of time help to relate the world of science to the world of miracles? Is the miracle of creation just a natural process that took a very long time?
Retta was experiencing regret and guilt. I think she felt God was punishing her for the compromising acts by not letting her have children. That thinking will drive anyone crazy, especially thinking its not normal when it is normal human behavior.
What do you think about Prudence's behavior?
Anyone else curious about why did the author choose moss studies?
What was it the little Frenchman told me, Alma? ‘Growing vanilla in Tahiti will be easier than farting in your sleep.’”What a character that Henry Whittaker.
Sheila wrote: "Wow, time sure jumps forward in part three. I was surprised to see so much time pass between the end of part 2 and beginning of part 3."The author transitions it smoothly.
Irene wrote: "I feel a bit badly for Alma who seems rather trapped as this spinster caring for her father. But, I also feel badly for Hanneke who is also a spinster with no connections, taken from her homeland ..."Hanneke watches over the family money which is in her bed chambers. Remember when Alma asked her why does she live in a cell and Hanekke's response was "I live in a vault."
Irene, I think Alma has been looking for passion and love all her adult life that she thought to have found it with that stange character Ambrose. Love and passion is of the heart not the mind. Alma fell heels over head with the idea that she finally found it .
Alma's sexual passion feels more of the body than of the heart. Ambrose feels like an extension of her very physical need that she satisfies in the binding closet. Of course, there is a psychological element as she has a greater energy and creativity after the engagement.
I thought that was a weird and awkward situation. You are right, Irene it is of the body. Lust?
Prenuptial agreement? Henry is a smart man. I stand with him on this issue.
Alma was only 48 years old. That's young and sexy!
I thought there was something mentioned about her already being in menapaus. Usually the sex drive diminishes to some extent at that point. And Ambrose is quite a bit younger. Coogar? Forty eight may be young and sexy in 2014, but I don't think it was viewed that way in 1848. All those years doing research on plants outside before skin care products, no anti-aging creams, etc, it could be presumed that she might have looked older than a middle-class first world woman today. She does not regard herself as young and sexy, but she definitely feels that need strongly.
Has anyone figured out why the title the, Disturbance of Messages?
Alma is discribed as a huge woman . What actress do you think should play her that would fit her character?
Irene wrote: "I thought there was something mentioned about her already being in menapaus. Usually the sex drive diminishes to some extent at that point. And Ambrose is quite a bit younger. Coogar? Forty eig..."Manapaus starts at about 54.
Mod
It seemed to me that moss studies fit with Alma's personality, something she could really spend a long time focusing on, that would keep her in her own world, since it takes decades to study, plus it was something unique that nobody had studied before.
Henry decribes his daughter as a regular farmer John in skirts. Kristie Alley? Kathie Bates? Who can play her part?
Mod
Meryl Steep?
Mod
I'm almost done with this section, but I'm thinking the disturbance of messages infers to Alma and Ambrose getting their "silent" messages in the binding closet confused. She thought he wanted to be married and have a sexual relationship, he thought she wanted to be married but share a chaste relationship.
Mod
What did everyone think of the "revelation" of what Prudence did for Alma? And what Alma then did for Prudence in return after the death of their father?
Wow, just finished this part last night. There's so much going on... Alma's life before Ambrose, while she claims is in Human Time, seems to be in Moss Time: seemingly little or no movement forward, limited view/experience, concerned only with doggedly slogging forward deteriorating rocks... Then Ambrose appears, and it's a breath of fresh air. Alma steps into Human Time for awhile where things move faster, things...happen, and Alma finds some joy. He felt a little like Retta: vigor for life, a little odd, and able to see Alma's strength and beauty. Then so much turmoil for both Retta and Ambrose! It's almost as if that joy and vigor for life could not be contained within the confines of the human mind. I think the title for this section is apt. Alma is surrounded by a disturbance of messages. She does not get an accurate read from or about Ambrose, her father and Hanneke purposely keeps their real ideas about Ambrose secret, only alluding to it, and then the revelation of Prudence's secrets! Alma's life, which seemed so solid, was a confusing mixture of half-truths, whole lies, and deception--all shrouded under Alma's sense of what she things ought to be the truth.
I feel a little ambivalent about the end of the section... I'm glad she understands Prudence a little better, and glad she provided for the abolitionist cause. I'm glad she's doing something new in her life, too. Hanneke's speech to Alma though, seemed unneccessarily rough. Prudence is no saint (in my opinion) no matter what Hanneke claims. Alma and Prudence were girls together, and both girls suffered from lack of real mothering. They were just expected to behave as Henry and Beatrix wanted, and lectured when they didn't. How was Alma to know Prudence was more than she appeared??? Prudence sure didn't help. IF there is blame to be assigned, both girls deserve some because neither really attempted to reach the other. That part bothered me.
Sheila wrote: "Finally finished part 3. Gee, quite a bit certainly happens in this section.What did everyone think of the "revelation" of what Prudence did for Alma? And what Alma then did for Prudence in retur..."
They both behaved unselfishly, as families should for one another. The girls lacked bonding with each other as sisters should, but you can only blame the parents for not teaching them that behavior. Henry and
Beatrix modeled competitive behavior. That's what the girls learned.
Ambrose wants to be an angel perhaps because his calling was to be a minister like his dad.
How do you feel about Alma's "banishment" of Ambrose?
I'm almost done reading this part.
What do think about the contents in Ambrose's valise?
Alma continues to search for answers of his distance. Do you think she is right?
Mod
Given Alma's history, and her expectations in her marriage to Ambrose, his banishment to the guest house seems understandable. She wanted a real marriage, he didn't.
Mod
Apparently he was a gay man, which would explain his lack of sexual interest in Alma. I wonder if he had been trying to hide his homosexual tendencies all his life, which may be why he ended up in a mental institution as a younger man.
Sheila wrote: "Irene wrote: "What do think about the contents in Ambrose's valise?"Apparently he was a gay man, which would explain his lack of sexual interest in Alma. I wonder if he had been trying to hide hi..."
That makes sense. That's probably why he left home. Maybe he was his mother's favorite because he was feminine and his dad was a minister. God loves everyone.
I wonder if he thought he was an angel because angle aren't sexual beings.
Mod
Finally catching up with my reading. Interesting developments. There were a lot of jumbled messages and miscommunications. Alma's family wasn't as much relational as it was competitive, so understanding doesn't appear to be a priority for them (only when it impacts their achievements). In fact, Alma was so focused on what she wanted that she failed to see what George and Prudence desired.During this period in history women went through menopause earlier than they do today, so Alma would have most likely been through with that stage. I also thought I read that in the text that she had gone through "the change." I found it ironic that she married after her child bearing years only to remain a virgin in marriage.
Another mixed message is the letter from Ambrose's mother where she mentioned a girl that she thought Ambrose would never get over. It makes me wonder if the mother knew that her son was gay or if she was in denial, also. Maybe she had some internal disturbances of messages.
Women in that era married for stability and survival. Alma married for sex. That's an unusual motivate. Was she ahead of her time? I think Ambrose married her so he could be stabled and survive in society. The roles were reversed.
Irene wrote: "Women in that era married for stability and survival. Alma married for sex. That's an unusual motivate. Was she ahead of her time? I think Ambrose married her so he could be stabled and sur..."I thought her motives were unusual add well. While her life was more free than a lot of women in the time, she was still hampered by her sex and upbringing. Perhaps that lead her to find release in sort of illicit ways. I thought from the beginning of the relationship that Ambrose was using Alma for the Security she could provide, and then as his "beard"... If not his cover as a gay man, then a cover for his mental instability.
Daniale wrote: "Irene wrote: "Women in that era married for stability and survival. Alma married for sex. That's an unusual motivate. Was she ahead of her time? I think Ambrose married her so he could be st..."I feel sorry for Ambrose's dilemma
Do you think Dick Yancey would have been a good mate for Alma?
Gosh, I didn't get a good read (har har) on Dick Yancey, but my gut reaction is "ew, no!". He comes off sort of creepy to me... He was very quiet--nearly invisible--while at the Whittaker house, then shows up at the funeral for Beatrix and asks Prudence to get married. Then turns out to be quite the abolitionist. He presented one face to the world, and then, Bam! once he's married Prudence, he's printing pamphelts and speaking out against slavery. I don't think Alma would have dealt very well with his shenanigans. She was too obligated to stay with her father, and wouldn't have wanted to harm his business endeavors w/ Dick's fight.
Daniale wrote: "Gosh, I didn't get a good read (har har) on Dick Yancey, but my gut reaction is "ew, no!". He comes off sort of creepy to me... He was very quiet--nearly invisible--while at the Whittaker house, ..."Daniale , Dick Yancy was Henry's muscle through out the world . I think you are confusing him with Author Dixon, Prudence 's husband .
At the end of this section, I understand why Prudence was as she was. It was so sad to see life from her point of view. Henry never accepted or made her feel part if the family. She was an orphan allowed to live there.
Haha...yes, yes I was...
I don't see Dick Yancey as a good mate for Alma. Alma's father treated her with a lot of respect and encouraged her studies, but it was unusual for a woman to have a career like she did (especially if married). I don't know that Mr. Yancey would have put up with Alma's intellectual pursuits. Henry had Dick in an authority position wherever he went. I'm not sure that Alma would have tolerated having an authority figure making decisions for her - and I think that Dick would be taking that sort of role as a husband.
I was away for the past week, so just catching up on the comments.Menopause can take place as early as mid-30s to late 50s. 54 may be an average age, but women go through it at a range of ages. I am in it and not yet 54.
My gut says that Ambrose was gay at a time when and in a Protestant family in which sex was not discussed, let alone was anything other than procreative sex tolerated. I suspect that many homosexuals in that era felt that their attraction was immoral or disgusting just as society said it was. So, he copes by denying he is a sexual being Of course, he may be delusional and really believs he is an angel. We do know that he has a history of some mental instability.
I did not like the ending of this section. The sudden reveal about Prudence and the out-of-character response of Alma felt forced. I needed to see clues abut Prudence leadin upto this. I understand that, although this is not a first person narrative, we are getting Alma's perspective primarily. So, this would scue our portrait. Nonetheless, I needed some clues. Prudence is consistently so reserved that she seems as if she does not trust the family members or her situation. She certainly tries to gain Beatrix's approval. Early on, she seems to be emulating Alma. Over time, this feels more like competition. But, I never saw her as someone who would flee into a loveless marriage just to remove herself from the sight of a potential suiter. And, if she does love Alma enough to sacrifice her entire future happiness for her, why the cold shoulder after marriage?
Likewise, nothing in Alma's story to this point gives us a person who would throw all caution to the wind, leaving her family estate to Prudence and her fanatical husband. With little thought, little internal wrestling, this woman who has spent 50 years in absolute obedience to over bearing parents, cared for in every aspect of her life's needs, confined almost exclusively to a single estate, abandons all stability, security and familiarity? It was too radical for me to easily swallow.
Irene wrote: "Daniale wrote: "Gosh, I didn't get a good read (har har) on Dick Yancey, but my gut reaction is "ew, no!". He comes off sort of creepy to me... He was very quiet--nearly invisible--while at the W..."Okay...Now that I've gotten some sleep, let me respond to Dick Yancey! I actually don't think he would be a horrible choice for Alma. I think that he knows her perhaps better than most people. I think that he has respect for her (due to her father) and her station. If they were to have wed, I think she would have continued in her father's place after his death, and with Yancey, run all her father's business ventures. He would have probably bedded her, and become a rich man. She would have a physical relationship with a man, be a rich woman, and perhaps maintain some authority as a bryologist. However, I think she would become stagnant in life. There would literally be no change for her, and she woudl grow old and die at White Acre. She wouldn't have travelled, found the bravery to live ina new world, or found the compassionate family she always sought. So in some aspects, Yancey would be a good mate, but he would have held her back from finding her own, true happiness.
Irene wrote: "I was away for the past week, so just catching up on the comments.Menopause can take place as early as mid-30s to late 50s. 54 may be an average age, but women go through it at a range of ages. ..."
I agree with a lot of what you say, Irene. I appreciate your insight about Ambrose, and agree that the Prudence revelation felt a little forced. It bothered me.
I like Alma's choice to get the heck outta Dodge, though. It's precisely because she's lived such an obedient, secluded life that I feel like it's a realistic choice for her. All throughout her life we see these attempts at passion, but they go awry--or cannot be fully realized. Here, with her father's death and the ability to throw off all the responsibility of his fortune, Alma can finally break out on her own and do something just for herself. She can discover what she's made of, and it's scarey and new--just what Alma needs to get out of the shadow of being Henry Whittaker's daughter.
Daniale wrote: "Irene wrote: "Daniale wrote: "Gosh, I didn't get a good read (har har) on Dick Yancey, but my gut reaction is "ew, no!". He comes off sort of creepy to me... He was very quiet--nearly invisible--..."I agree Daniale.
