The Obscure Reading Group discussion
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Jude the Obscure Archives
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Feb. 21st-28th. Discussion of "Part Fifth: At Aldbrickham and Elsewhere" and "Part Sixth: At Christminster Again"
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Darrin wrote: "I also thought, however, that the idea behind Arabella and Jude's son being one of the actors in this tragedy was a good idea but Father Time should have been older and there needed to be more "evi..."Yes. Something more needed to be added for Little Father Time / Little Jude. Hmm. . . .maybe there could have been some reference to Arabella's family history, similar to Jude's story that came out before his would-be wedding. Maybe there could have been descriptions from his grandparents or more from Arabella - descriptions of him directly or descriptions of some of the life he had been living before coming to Jude's and Sue's lives. Making him articulate so much of the foreshadowing made him seem oddly precocious.
Ah, the cockiness in trying to double-think a literary master. . . . I won't be sharing this particular post with my students! (smile)
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This was no Fagin or Uriah Heep or Iago or Nurse Ratched, after all. Arabella was more in the line of "girls just want to have fun," but at the most inappropriate of times (like, say, when your husband is dying).
Unlike L.F.T., Hardy did it right with ole Arabella, a femme fatale like we've never seen before!
Ken wrote: "Speaking of Arabella, I found it interesting how Hardy made an "evil" character who didn't measure up to readers' usual expectations of an "evil" character.This was no Fagin or Uriah Heep or Iago..."
Yes, Ken,
I agree. What made her completely "hopeless" was the fact that she showed no signs of regret, conscience, or afterthought. What she wanted for herself was priority #1 for her, and she never even considered others in the mix or in her own narrative.
Funny, Fagin took various variations in my mind's eye and ear -- but I agree with the others. Even Fagin had a reason beyond himself for breaking the law. Ah, but we have created a musical with him singing some of the most wonderful songs, though. . . . (smile)
Well, off to teach now! Damn if Arabella won't be among today's ponderings. . . . .
A smile to you, Jan
Sandra wrote: "I agree that Hardy used the characters as symbols and not as fully-believable individuals. A cautionary tale, absolutely! Sue’s need for punishment and Father Time’s tragic decision to end the chil..."I'll read that memoir!
Ken wrote: "Back to the book: Although I disliked the death scene of the three children for reasons stated above, I did think what Sue blurted out with all her defenses down was revealing. After Jude asks wh..."
Excellent! I'll return to this later this week.
Thank you for the insight, Ken!
Ken wrote: "Darrin wrote: "In regard to Ken's suggestion to do this group read again my reply is "yes", definitely! Count me in. It doesn't have to be Shakespeare. I am honestly willing to read anything new."..."
I like the open meaning within "obscure" and can think of many ways we can apply it.
Well, damn. . . .I can't find Ken's thread about Dickens' charactes. Well, for the sheer joy of music and a nod to how Broadway (and London's West End), those wonderful theater groups who can take a grand myth and make it all the more amazing through song and dance, here is but one of the "bad guy" songs. Off I go to teach now! (Really, you ALL have a been a bad -- yet wonderful -- influence on me. Normally I'm at school at 7:00 rather than setting out at 7 a.m.) A smile to you all!
https://youtu.be/VogHwP0C5VY
Hi all, I’ve been catching up on all the comments, finished the book on Saturday, just giving my time to digest.Much of the book builds and unfolds like a Greek tragedy. The emphasis on the punishment being so physically disturbing is quite similar to how the Greeks liked to match physical bodily deterioration with the tragic fate. Jude’s withering is as Oedipus in Oedipus at Colonnus.
In some sense the strong sense of community, eg at Shaston and Christminster act as a multivariate chorus. Public opinion - they speak and act as a heard. Only Sue, Jude, and Philloston seem to act with true individuality (Arabella is consumed by the choral opinion)
Another aspect overwhelming the book is doubt in God and the church, and a want for classical natural restoration in the lives of Jude and Sue ( but all they restore is classical tragedy unto themselves)
One element I find which overcomes Jude is a doubt in the ecclesiastical institutions, doubts that went through us the “ghosts” that visit him.The difference between himself and these ghosts is the class gap. Jude is among the earliest of such doubters among the working class, and is ostracised for it. Hardy is worrying of what is to come once the doubt engulfing the Victorian elite filters down to the day to day of the aspirant lower class.
Sandra wrote: "Jan, Kathleen, Darrin, Carol, Laysee—just to mention a few—thanks for such thoughtful reflections and comments. I have enjoyed reading all the thoughts on this thread."It's a rare treat having such a wealth of thoughtful friends for comments and encouragement for reading! Keep enjoying each love, illuminating work along the way. . . .
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Arabella succeeds because she plays her interest off that of the chorus/public. She can play opinion. Even Philloston is scolded from his community before his remarriage. Independent thought/actions too glaring are shunned.With regards self knowledge - is this actually obtained in, say Oedipus at Colonnus? I seem to recall the non-titular characters of that play being dazzled and bewildered by the level of self reflection obtained by Oedipus during his final hours. Perhaps Oedipus gained self-knowledge but it is so obscure/particular to his ordeal that anyone who hasn’t gone through it cannot fully relate. Perhaps Hardy is trying to mirror this. (Hence Jude the Obscure?)
I thought it was an interesting choice to show Jude’s final withering largely from Arabella’s perspective. Any suggestions as to why Hardy portrayed his parting from the world via her lens? Best I can think of is added tragedy by showing how she moves on with his blood hardly cold.
Also the Philloston/Philistine dualism - someone mentioned it prior and it has been frustrating me in resolution - are there any further thoughts on this?
I am very much a "Carpe Diem" type of personality. While I never passed my daughter off to be raised by others, and I'm pretty sure I won't leave my husband on his deathbed to go watch a boat parade, still, you have to admit that Arabella with her self preservation plan of action was the only character who was unscathed at the end of the book. She was the same person at the beginning of the novel as she was at the end. Also the only happy person, because she didnt think, she just reacted. What was Hardy's message to us by portraying her this way?
Philistine/Phillotson, my thoughts are: Hardy is anti Church of England, the philistines of the Bible are the enemy of the Israelites. Phillotson was Jude’s enemy, so a symbolic Philistine. Sue is the land of Canaan, milk and honey to Phillotson . The Philistines were not among the tribes cast out in Canaan. . So it stands to reason she would stay with Phiiotson.
To Jude Sue was the temptress. A Devil in disguise.
Arabella awakened his sexual awareness, but he was naive. Sue was a more sophisticated Temptress.
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As for the Greek tragedy parallels, I certainly get how the ending matches up, but it's missing that lovely deus ex machina.
Self-knowledge? It doesn't go over so well, but the outside forces (social norms, small-minded gossip, Church of England) run so much interference that it's hard to think. Perhaps a move to Cold Mountain where the characters can meditate?
Also, Arabella just blithely goes on, almost like an animal, happy in her day to day living and doing her best to take the shortest route to happiness and convenience. Not a lot of deep thinking or empathy there....
So how do parents who created an Arabella raise (as grandparents in Oz) a kid like Father Time? The gap in personalities is so huge that it's hard to figure.
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Twain is universally criticized for that Tom Sawyer-hijinks ending to Huck Finn. Of course, I thought the book dropped off even sooner, with the arrival of the Duke and the Dauphin. I flat-out love the first third of the book, though.
The Partially-Great American Novel, let's call it.
Unless Jude is incredibly stupid the time line doesn’t match. We know Arabella to be conniving and sly. Father Time could have been her child by a previous lover and was small for his age. We know nothing as to why her parents took off to Oz. Maybe they were all sent there as criminals.
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Any progress setting up the new book discussion?
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Sandra wrote: "Good article, but I agree with Ken—a teenager?? Really?.."Thank you, Carol, for the article. Like Ken, Sandra and Diane, I doubt Little Father Time was a teenager. Jude married Arabella at age 19 and he died at age 30. Some time elapsed between Little Father time's suicide and Jude's death, so he had to be about 9 or 10 years old at most.
Thank you very much, everyone, for this lively discussion. Many interesting perspectives (Amongst many topics, I love the comparison between this sordid story and the Greek tragedy!). This is my first time being in a Reading Group, and it's been energizing. It is like being in a group project with super-smart and motivated classmates and learning so much more! Yes, I am looking forward to 'The Obscure Reading Group.'
I’ve enjoyed each of your comments. Thank you Ken for putting this group together. You guys have kept an old mind sharp.
Carol wrote: "Interesting article about the book. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theg..."
"The heart of the story will examine the humiliation of Jude's failure as a social animal, a profound and crippling obscurity ending in death." Fine article, thank you!
Thanks for all the insight, everyone - great group!Agreed did not read Father Time as a teenager, but hadn’t gathered Jude was not the father. But it is consistent with Arabella’s character and motivations.
Agreed on Sue as the more developed temptress to Jude. She forces him to deviate and discard his original Christminster viewpoint, whereas Arabella merely distracted but could not de-rail them. This was my initial reading of Sue, but the padding out of the story in parts 3/4 muddied those waters somewhat.
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At the same tim..."
Yes, the section with Little Father Time or Little Jude (by this time in the story) didn't ring true for me. It was addressed and resolved so quickly that I was unsure of what I read at first. I wonder what Hardy was considering at the time. Also, because he was introduced so late, this child (as well as the others) did not have enough development to really become real for the readers, at least not 21st Century readers.
I agree that the characters were punished for their dreams, and they withstood the punishment for quite a long time. With each attack, they grew a bit weaker, a bit more worn down. Truly, this was quite sad.