Feb. 14th-Feb 21st: Discussion of "Part Third: At Melchester" and "Part Fourth: At Shaston"

[Carol]

I think Jude has lots of phycological problems. He was seeking acceptance from his studies, love from the wrong women. No parents, no one who really cared for him. All misplaced desires and no guidance, even Phillotson abandoned him. Ah I could go on and on, naming all the people who failed him .

He was a product of his environment, and genetics. He had no chance to succeed. I felt empathy for him. He was a lost little boy , with no direction home.

[Jan]

Kathleen wrote: "I certainly hope goodness isn't outdated, and it seems the world has always been cruel.

But I think what Jude reminds us to guard against is the belief that there is only a narrow, socially-accep..."

Hello, Kathleen,

Ah yes, his view of the world and himself won't change. I keep returning to how Sue pointed out his similarity to Don Quijote, one of my own favorite characters, in a book I've read over and again. As Don Quijote traveled throughout the Spanish villages and cities, he perpetuated or even heightened violence because he couldn't (or intentionally wouldn't) clearly recognize what was happening around him. Aha . . . . as I type this, I wonder if Jude the "Obscure" could carry the meaning not only of one overlooked but also one who cannot see clearly?

True, I agree with you. We so often see that struggle between conformity and individualism. From all I've learned here and before, Hardy himself was also frustrated with the conformity of his Victorian society.

Ah, I'm sorry to report that now I need to prepare for school. I haven't been able to read other posts, but I'll return later.

I'm looking forward to reading all your comments!

[Jan]

Ken wrote: "Jude himself admits his two weaknesses are a.) women and b.) liquor."

Yes! Thank you for bringing me back to the actual person of the character. . . .

Jude does follow these both with all-consuming behaviors. Damn, though -- If he had been from an upper-middle class or elite society, he very well may have been celebrated as a bon vivant instead of an overlooked, desperate flailer.

So NOW I need to get ready for today's work. . . . My Best, Jan

[Diane]

Interesting comment about the title, Jan. Does it describe his place as a common man, or his narrow minded viewpoint?

[Sandra]

One thing I always told my students, when interpreting a character, look for evidence that supports the author’s view of him/her. I can find very little in Hardy’s text to support any sympathy for Arabella. I can find endless support to believe Hardy himself sympathized with both Sue and Jude. What do you think about this? Of course the reader can come to a conclusion about a character that differs from the author’s....

[Sandra]

And I am on Part Six: Chapter 2. So incredibly sad.

[Kathleen]

Sandra wrote: "One thing I always told my students, when interpreting a character, look for evidence that supports the author’s view of him/her. I can find very little in Hardy’s text to support any sympathy for ..."

I agree, Sandra. I mentioned something about this in my first post, that it surprised me that Hardy didn't seem to want us to have any empathy for Arabella. I've been watching for any change in that, but haven't found it yet. (I'm a little bit further than you and hope to finish tonight.)

I'm glad you mentioned the difference between what the author is providing and what we as readers can imagine on our own. I can think of lots of reasons to sympathize with a character like Arabella, but so far, I get the feeling that for Hardy, she is simply evil.

[Carol]

Arabella is the epitome of a conniving manipulative person. Not necessarily evil, but always looking after herself first.

[Jan]

Sandra wrote: "One thing I always told my students, when interpreting a character, look for evidence that supports the author’s view of him/her. I can find very little in Hardy’s text to support any sympathy for ..."

Hello,

Great question! I also like your probe for your students. (smile) As I read it, Hardy gave literary permission for -- encouraged -- individualism and freedom, but he hated it without any responsibility. He created two female characters with freedom, but only Sue takes responsibility.

Consider Arabella and Sue's reactions to Little Father Time. Arabella abandons her son even before Jude knows about him. She doesn't even give him a name of any sort, and she leaves that little boy with first her parents (who don't want him) and then with Jude (and Sue). In contrast, Sue comes to embrace him. True, she had a strong physical reaction upon meeting Little Father Time, actually having to leave the room before returning to him. Imagine how overwhelming that situation would be for her, actually going against her unconventional lifestyle and her own yearning for freedom. Still, she returned to help him.

It seems to me that Hardy was realistic in many ways, accepting human nature, but -- as you indicated -- he still liked and disliked people (and characters) because of their choices. Sue was the one who chose to be compassionate.

[Jan]

Darrin wrote: "Diane wrote: "I haven't even started parts 5 & 6 yet, but my thoughts so far about Jude is that his problems are all of his own making. He does not have a strong character, and allows himself to be..."

Various times over these two weeks I've read the posts and then pondered them while preparing for my next "move" in the day. I haven't always been able to write upon first reading. I can't recall if I responded to this earlier. If so, pardons. . . .

I disagree that Jude does not have a strong character. Though he was frustrated in many ways, he was actively trying to change his life. As I read him, his own nature is one of an introvert -- and a dreamy one at that. Early in the story, he sought books for his exploration of the world, and his destination was always Christminster. Talk about an ideal! He wasn't about the physical adventures many young people take on, and he actively tried to cultivate that in himself. He took pains to ask for what he wanted, he had enough boldness to dream of a life "above his station" and then even went after it. Though he wasn't aggressive in his relationships, that wasn't his style. I do wish, perhaps, that he would have stayed more introverted when it came to Arabella -- running away or even staying away altogether! (smile)

I read Jude as being caught in society's mores and expectations. Victorian times were exceptionally difficult for anyone breaking out of society's rigid rules. He wanted to advance himself in life, and I think he tried to do so. His own nature wasn't that of the conquering magnate -- perhaps the only equitable solution for change in a strongly stratified society. Essentially, if Jude had been from an upper class, his lack of outward conquering or dreaminess would have been accepted; those who were still very work-driven might have even "indulged" him because of his status in life.

[Jan]

Jan wrote: "Sandra wrote: "One thing I always told my students, when interpreting a character, look for evidence that supports the author’s view of him/her. I can find very little in Hardy’s text to support an..."