The Obscure Reading Group discussion
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Jude the Obscure Archives
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Feb. 14th-Feb 21st: Discussion of "Part Third: At Melchester" and "Part Fourth: At Shaston"
Mod
I am still sitting on p. 1 of Part Fifth. I had intended to start a few days back, but we've had company this weekend and I'm coming down with my umpteenth cold now.
Tonight, for sure, I will begin at last, as I read each night in bed as a soporific. We'll see how long I last.
Jude the Obscure has actually been a detriment to my sleep schedule as I have been staying up late to read. It is that good to me. In the end, I very much like Sue, even after my irritation with her lack of decision making skills and it is Arabella that I find the most reprehensible.
Next winter, I think a Shakespeare selection is in order if for no other reason than to make me less ignorant.
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And yes, when we're done here, we might discuss the merits of staying together as a reading group that reads one or two times a year. Not one of these every month groups, though. I like reading on my own too much.
Ken wrote: "So glad you liked it so much. And yes, when we're done here, we might discuss the merits of staying together as a reading group that reads one or two times a year. Not one of these every month gr..."
I would be interested in staying together as a group and reading something that increases my smarts with all of you.
Have to think up a name though.
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Carol wrote: "Darrin wrote: "I am not dropping out of the dialogue. I just finished the book this morning so my thoughts have evolved quite a bit now that I am done and I am waiting to discuss more when we get t..."Carol and Darrin, I'm joining you both. "Mum" for me until the later conversation. I got up quite early and finished reading. I've enjoyed the comments you've both made earlier, so I'm looking forward to the coming discussions.
I haven't even gotten started on the final 2 sections yet, and am hoping that Jude gets smarter and/or Sue settles down a bit. But it's a tragedy so.......probably not. I sincerely hope Arabella re-enters the scene, as she injects life into the storyline. Maybe it's my age, maybe it's my sensibilities, but I'm finding it difficult to like either Sue or Jude.
Jan wrote: "Carol wrote: "Darrin wrote: "I am not dropping out of the dialogue. I just finished the book this morning so my thoughts have evolved quite a bit now that I am done and I am waiting to discuss more..."I purposely did not read the introduction in the edition I am reading. I did not want any spoilers that would ruin the novel for me and, also, because I felt I would better able to understand the introduction and notes by Amy M. King in this edition after reading the novel rather than before.
I was not wrong. It is interesting reading her introduction now in light of what I have read in the novel and our discussion thread. She touches on a lot of areas we have already discussed and has several other insights that we have not. I am reading the Barnes & Noble Classics edition published in 2003 which I checked out of our library.
Hello, Darrin, I found the whole story compelling, and I couldn't help but feel sorrow for the various characters. Even those I disliked at one time I later came to view with different eyes; perhaps there was not always transformation to "like" or "sympathize" but definitely a developed perspective. I'm not going to write any more about that now, however. (smile - no more spoilers from me)
In between classes and essays this week, I will search for Amy King. The little I've found in smaller searches has enhanced my reading and enjoyment (or intrigue) dramatically. My book edition is straightforward without any commentary other than three biographical notes "About the Author" on the back cover. Even as I searched for publication information, I found only "Made in the USA . Coppell, TX, 26 January 2020."
OK, in my literature class today we are going to wrap up "Those Who Walk Away From Omelas" and then begin "The Wife's Story." Hmm. . . I wonder what Ursula Le Guin would make about Thomas Hardy, and then I hope that Thomas Hardy would be applauding a strong female author taking on science fiction. On to my courses I go . . . . .
Well, Happy Reading today!
Jan, Amy M. King has a couple of books...https://www.goodreads.com/author/show...This time period of English literature seems to be her specialty...https://stjenglish.com/dr-amy-king/
I'm a bit late to the party this week (busy weekend) but here we go:I thought the Melchester chapters the weakest in the book so far. Both Jude and Sue's constant circling was and lack of progress irksome (an ironic lack of progress considering Sue's progressive tendencies, or indication of Jude's entropic passivity?)
I did enjoy much of Philloston's introspection at Shaston, so it ended on a high. As noted above, it was interesting that Philloston had a confiding friend, such was noticeably absent for both Jude and Sue.
Something I think Hardy is trying to highlight here is the dance between two soul's out of joint with the time. Sue is modern, too modern for the Shaston community. Jude, however, is out of joint with his England as a result of something resembling a medieval sense on life.
Some excerpts to back up my perspective.
Part 3 Chapter 1 begins with him fearing a degeneration of nobility:
'He feared that his whole scheme had degenerated to, even though it might not have originated in, a social unrest which had no foundation in the nobler instincts
He describes Philloston's relationship with Sue as a 'suit'.
At the end of the chapter Jude suggests they sit in the Cathedral, to which Sue replies she'd rather sit in the railway station, the modern cathedral through her lens.
Sue also contains shades of Wordsworth in The Prelude when she exclaims I like reading and all that, but I crave to get back to life of my infancy and its freedom
The is at odds with Jude's vision of the well read individual as a cloistered scholar, humped his desk scrutinising some Latin grammar.
Other thoughts to follow.
Mod
I thought the Melchester chapters the weakest in the book so far. Both Jude and Sue's constant circling was and lack of progres..."
So, in your view, Sue is ahead of her times, and Jude is behind his times.
Also, your comparison to The Prelude reminded me of Rousseau and The Noble Savage.
That said, in reading this book, Jude has not necessarily come across as a capital-R Romantic in the purest sense. Some elements are there, but others, not so much.
Ken wrote: “...Jude is behind his times, and Sue is ahead of hers”...I think there’s a large truth to this without a perfect fit. One of the things I think Hardy is trying to do is to see how these sentiments play off each other. The new (modern) sentiment seep out of the city. We see Jude call Sue “of civilisation” and “urban”, to which she takes umbrage.
Hardy’s Wessex is a melting pot of ideas. Jude has a medieval nostalgic (but not romantic) view of Christminster, and when this falls him his first instinct is to think of somewhere else he could locate that vision (his ecclesiastical flirtation). But his exposure to Sue muddy’s these vision, and vice versa for Sue’s exposure to him.
The increasing interconnectedness of this part of England is definitely on Hardy’s mind. With different views on life coming up against each other, sometimes coagulating into some new unique reference frame, sometimes clashing abrasively.
Mod
I just finished Part Fifth and loved it---a definite pick up in pace from the guttering plot in Parts Third and Fourth (which make Sue look worse than she is). So take heart and damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!
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I think there’s a large truth to this without a perfect fit. One of the things I think Hardy is trying to do is to see how th..."
Perhaps Sue and Jude represent clashing social views in England during Hardy's times. Or maybe during all of our times: that longing for glories of the past (often a pipe dream and often made up) vs. that yearning for a better future free of the past's shackles.
Oh man , my view of Sue has changed. Jude is still Jude as obscure as a ever. He doesn’t articulate , does he really have any unique thoughts that are truly his. There is so much drama , Hardy pulls it all together , so each person plays off the other. It is an amazing structured novel, one that has survived over a hundred years, and it still doesn’t feel too dated. A man before his time, maybe he was a time traveler or a physic who could see into the future. Just throwing this out there for others to chew on.
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Sue: "The Cathedral has had its day!"
Jude: "How modern you are!"
Sue: "So would you be if you had lived so much in the Middle Ages as I have done these last few years! The Cathedral was a very good place four or five centuries ago; but it is played out now … I am not modern, either. I am more ancient than medievalism, if you only knew."
Any ideas on what she means here? Her way of thinking goes back further than medieval times? I'm thinking pre-Christian is what she's referring to, but thoughts, anyone?
More Druid in her thinking, or even Wiccan?
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Yes! I can believe that.
Kathleen wrote: "Carol wrote: "More Druid in her thinking, or even Wiccan?"Yes! I can believe that."
Prehistoric Wessex
William Dalrymple looks at the religious systems which came and went in Britain in the centuries leading up to the Christian era. Why and how do these traditions still matter to us? And what do we make of them today?
Fathoming how our earliest ancestors understood the world is something we can only guess at very tentatively using the clues of archaeology. In Wiltshire, a unique collection of ceremonial monuments and burial mounds span several periods of pre-history. The earliest of them tell us that kinship and the support of a clan's ancestors seems to have lain at the centre of the conception of spirituality in prehistoric Wessex...BBC
Apparently not much Viking influence here. More ancestor worship, and nature.
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"Sue, you seem when you are like this to be one of the women of some grand old civilization … rather than a denizen of a mere Christian country. I almost expect you to say at these times that you have just been talking to some friend whom you met in the Via Sacra, about the latest news of Octavia or Livia … or have been watching Praxiteles chiseling way at his latest Venus …"
Kathleen wrote: "This is too funny. After posting I go back to reading--I'm on Chapter 3 of Part Fifth. I turn the page and see this (not a spoiler so I'll go ahead and post):"Sue, you seem when you are like this..."
I think her beliefs were pre Roman, maybe.
I think she was even before them , maybe. Hardy was afraid to espouse Paganism , especially in Victorian times. Although I find it interesting that seances were in the vogue during the Victoria times.
Mod
Yes! I can believe that."
Prehistoric Wessex
William Dalrymple looks at the religious systems which came and went in B..."
So interesting! I didn't think about Hardy's Wessex being in the Stonehenge area. This looks interesting, on paganism in Hardy's novels:
http://classprojects.kenyon.edu/engl/...
Kathleen wrote: "Carol wrote: "Kathleen wrote: "Carol wrote: "More Druid in her thinking, or even Wiccan?"Yes! I can believe that."
Prehistoric Wessex
William Dalrymple looks at the religious systems which came..."
I take back what I said about him being reluctant to write about Paganism. That was an interesting piece Kathleen.
I thought it might be interesting to look at Sue's last name and came across this piece on Wikipedia. Note the Celtic derivation of the word "bride" discussed in the article as well as some other locations that you all just touched on above.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Littleb...
Darrin wrote: "I thought it might be interesting to look at Sue's last name and came across this piece on Wikipedia. Note the Celtic derivation of the word "bride" discussed in the article as well as some other l..."Ah so it is a nod to the ancient religions. He doesn’t think much of the modern church for sure. We could talk until the cows come home about all the symbolism in this one novel.
Carol wrote: "Oh man , my view of Sue has changed. Jude is still Jude as obscure as a ever. He doesn’t articulate , does he really have any unique thoughts that are truly his. There is so much drama , Hardy pull..."Yes there is definite elements of Sue as pagan. Her wanting to return to nature, her wading through the river at shoulder height to escape her activity was written in a strange mystical manner, hinting at a deep connection with nature. It struck me whilst reading that passage
Mod
Also, if you compare the Sue v. Jude discussion here to art, you might consider the chasm between Classical Art and Medieval Art. In the one, a celebration of the body, nudity, realism. In the other, elongated bodies or bodies bigger if they are more important (Jesus, Mary primarily), clothes everywhere, and a rather flat look all around, as the point is religion, not human.
Maybe Sue, then, is not so much pagan as classical (the "ancient" works that way, too). If we look at the "Dark Ages" (or, as E.H. Gombrich called the Middle Ages, the "Starry Night" in honor of the pinpoints of life maintained by monks in their scriptoriums) as a Death Valley Days for knowledge (kept, at the time, by the Muslim and Byzantine scholars), we can see that Sue's attraction to pre-Medieval times might be an example of the deep past being intellectually superior to the not-as-deep past.
Perhaps part 5 will reveal more (I’m only starting it now).It seems Sue’s symbolism is toying with me the same way her intentions toy with Jude.
Mod
Jan, I loved the four questions you posed in your "charity" post. Ha-ha, like a mondegreen with songs, that!
Anyway, about your pregunta numero uno: "How many times do we find stories of people trying to rise above their lives (or merely survive) yet find themselves cut short after having traveled (literally or metaphorically) so far? Like Jude experiences, they can even see their dreams so near yet so far away."
It reminds me of my all-time favorite quote---one, in fact, that I used as an epigraph to my first book of poems, The Indifferent World (note how title matches quote)---Henry David Thoreau's "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation."
Damn. That quote seems to work on 80% of all literature (excepting those books with NOISY desperation). Certainly it fits Jude to a tee.
And, despite that teaching schedule, you've been doing yeowoman duty, Jan. Thanks for your charity toward our clarity! ;-)
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I have a few more quotes from Parts Third and Fourth to share, then will unload beginning Friday when the last thread (for Parts Fourth and Fifth) go up.
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"Strange that [Jude's] first aspiration ---towards academical proficiency---had been checked by a woman, and that his second aspiration---towards apostleship---had also been checked by a woman. 'Is it,' he said, 'that the women are to blame; or is it the artificial system of things, under which the normal sex-impulses are turned into devilish domestic gins and springs to noose and hold back those who want to progress?'"
The "gins and springs to noose" bit alludes to the trapped rabbit that he mercy-killed outside the home that night after hearing its wail (rabbits only make sounds when they are in the death throes). That was one of the many Hardy scattered throughout the novel to show Jude's St. Francis-like pity for God's simple beasts.
But still, Jude's question seems Hardy's question for the reader. What brings Jude down? Women? Society? Both?
Hardy gives us ample ammunition for both causes which, I think, is one of the book's claims to being "artful" in its way (and also "maddening" in its way).
How different his life would have been had he never met Sue and Arabella (or, as Freud might have coined them, a Madonna and whore complex come to life)!
Ken wrote: "Jan wrote: "I know I missed some of my spoilers when I revised and edited over these past 30 minutes. Please pardon those! I haven't read to the end of the novel, but now I am honestly nervous for ..."I've been enjoying this, Ken. Thank You!
This whole group has been so illuminating for me. It's been an energizing experience to read and be part of a discussion group. I loved all the interpretations from Oedipus to pagan references, our members' frustrations and hopes, and -- most importantly -- Hardy's vivid descriptions of places and his tortuous plot. Admittedly, I'm still reeling a bit that Hardy's plot contradicted my hopes for Jude.
Your quote will be what I play in my mind's eye and ear as I drive into my day. My driving wheel will certainly enjoy my musings over your insight. (smile)
As for me, a painful and tender quote comes from a speech I often teach (and will be doing so later this semester in April). It's upsetting for me to read the speech in context (given the day after Reverand King's assassination), and it becomes even more poignant when I see my students (most from poor backgrounds) identify with these themes over fifty years later. Reading the speech one young man queried if we truly can move forward, his voice and eyes so intense that I was speechless for a bit.
From Senator Kennedy's "On The Mindless Menace of Violence."
". . . . whenever we tear at the fabric of life which another man has painfully and clumsily woven for himself and his children, the whole nation is degraded."
There is a great deal in the full speech, but this phrase captures so much of the earnest, patient work and sacrifice people undertake to try to improve their lives. Perhaps I also like the poetry of weaving those times of toil into something hopeful. Ah, but now I need to leave for my day's classes. . . . . .
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Listening to this speech now, to its plea against division and hate, is especially bittersweet, given that we now live under people who wallow in it and use it toward their own perfidious ends.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoKzC...
So great. These statesmen were a breed that has not been prevalent in recent years.
Mod
I am just beginning the last reading due on Friday. I know. I sound like a student and even am behind like a student. I still like Sue and don’t see her as flirtatious. I think I identify with her lack of confidence in marriage, but I think Hardy did too. Arabella—hmmm. I remember how the book ends, but I am hoping to see things I didn’t see when I read it at nineteen!
Sue is a dichotomy. I am not saying much until Friday.
Ken wrote: "Great quote, Jan. I used the speech announcing MLK's assassination for two reasons: rhetorical devices and the message itself.Listening to this speech now, to its plea against division and hate, ..."
I haven't seen this video, and I'll now add it to a full thematic unit. Thank you for sharing!
Below is the speech I share with my students, directing them to the John Kennedy Presidential Library for the full transcript. I have posted only the last few paragraphs under the speech.
https://youtu.be/OJ8rxSYMi-c
This is the breaking of a man's spirit by denying him the chance to stand as a father and as a man among other men. And this too afflicts us all. I have not come here to propose a set of specific remedies nor is there a single set. For a broad and adequate outline we know what must be done. When you teach a man to hate and fear his brother, when you teach that he is a lesser man because of his color or his beliefs or the policies he pursues, when you teach that those who differ from you threaten your freedom or your job or your family, then you also learn to confront others not as fellow citizens but as enemies - to be met not with cooperation but with conquest, to be subjugated and mastered.
We learn, at the last, to look at our brothers as aliens, men with whom we share a city, but not a community, men bound to us in common dwelling, but not in common effort. We learn to share only a common fear - only a common desire to retreat from each other - only a common impulse to meet disagreement with force. For all this there are no final answers.
Yet we know what we must do. It is to achieve true justice among our fellow citizens. The question is now what programs we should seek to enact. The question is whether we can find in our own midst and in our own hearts that leadership of human purpose that will recognize the terrible truths of our existence.
We must admit the vanity of our false distinctions among men and learn to find our own advancement in the search for the advancement of all. We must admit in ourselves that our own children's future cannot be built on the misfortunes of others. We must recognize that this short life can neither be ennobled or enriched by hatred or revenge.
Our lives on this planet are too short and the work to be done too great to let this spirit flourish any longer in our land. Of course we cannot vanish it with a program, nor with a resolution.
But we can perhaps remember - even if only for a time - that those who live with us are our brothers, that they share with us the same short movement of life, that they seek - as we do - nothing but the chance to live out their lives in purpose and happiness, winning what satisfaction and fulfillment they can.
Surely this bond of common faith, this bond of common goal, can begin to teach us something. Surely we can learn, at least, to look at those around us as fellow men and surely we can begin to work a little harder to bind up the wounds among us and to become in our hearts brothers and countrymen once again.
Sandra wrote: "Jan, thank you for sharing the excerpt. I fear it will always be thus, given human nature. I have throughly enjoyed everyone’s comments. So much to ponder! I have been hit hard by the references to..."Hello, Sandra,
Yes, it is amazing the see whom Jude reaches out to care for, to protect, and -- so we hope -- to depend on for shelter. At the beginning of the book, I had hoped that Jude would find protection from a beneficent God, especially when I read the passage of the rooks (protected in the fields in the gospels).
What do you think? At the beginning of these last chapters, do you see Jude now receiving compassion from others? I remember feeling "stung" when his teacher didn't remember him, yet I was happy in the first chapters that Phillotson did send Greek and Latin books to him. At least I saw a genuine desire to reach out to Jude at the beginning of the story. I then wondered why Phillotson missed Jude's emotions and intentions. In reading this, I wonder how much the characters individually and collectively became worn-down by life.
Also, what do you think about the emerging sides of the women? I smiled at your comment about marriage, and I've made a mental note to share that with my husband tonight. I'm intrigued by the women and find myself thinking, "Sue is just like ______" or "Yes, I always see _______ acting just like Arabella." (Funny how I "conveniently" leave myself out of these descriptions right now. -- smile)
I hope you continue to enjoy reading!
I look forward to hearing more of your ideas.
Carol wrote: "So great. These statesmen were a breed that has not been prevalent in recent years."I know. I dread seeing what next "bit of ridiculousness" will play out on the world stage, and it's heartbreaking to see how the politicians' arrogance and folly play out in our daily lives. I think it's healthier to laugh, but it would be heartless to not cry.
I haven't even started parts 5 & 6 yet, but my thoughts so far about Jude is that his problems are all of his own making. He does not have a strong character, and allows himself to be led by women or events instead of doing what he knows he needs to do to achieve his dreams. But maybe his dreams aren't that strong to begin with. He is a hard worker as a stonecutter, was loyal to his Aunt, wants to help others, but his infatuation with Sue overpowers everything, including his common sense. I'll start the next section tonight, and we'll see if I change my mind as it goes along.
Diane wrote: "I haven't even started parts 5 & 6 yet, but my thoughts so far about Jude is that his problems are all of his own making. He does not have a strong character, and allows himself to be led by women ..."Quite true. The major events in Jude's life happen to him rather because of him. Maybe his true nature is that of a hopeless (hapless?) dreamer. Even in the first pages, he dreamt of faraway Christminster instead of working. In these recent middle chapters, he isn't firm in his relationships -- even after journeying so far or doing so much for others. In recent comments, there was speculation that he may have been more medieval rather than forward-thinking, and that could be a form of retreat from own life.. his real world.
Perhaps he has a misguided belief that a virtuous life will bring forth the rewards so richly deserved by law-abiding people. Does his religious yearning result in blind faith? Come to think of it, his life mirrors the outdated ideal of the knight loyal to his lady yet chaste in romance. I've read to the end, so I'm not going to comment any more on this.
Is goodness itself an outdated, even foolish concept in a cruel world?
If I thought goodness was outdated, I'd have to curl up in a ball and die. It's the only thing that keeps the world spinning.
Mod
But I think what Jude reminds us to guard against is the belief that there is only a narrow, socially-accepted, universally-determined form of goodness: marriage is required for a "good" family, education is required for a "good" job, hard work is required for respectability … etc, etc. Sometimes we still have a sort of lifestyle caste system, don't we, where we as a society look down on dreamers or artists or anyone unconventional?
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The liquor thing actually puzzles me because except for that binge he had that one night which resulted in him losing his job in Christminster, does he really ever have any additional episodes of severe intoxication or be seen to have what we would call a drinking problem? It seemed to be more something he believed about himself because of this one incident rather than an actual ongoing addiction.
Diane wrote: "I haven't even started parts 5 & 6 yet, but my thoughts so far about Jude is that his problems are all of his own making. He does not have a strong character, and allows himself to be led by women ..."I agree with you Diane. A lot of this is on Jude.
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Also, I am betting you have read ahead like I did.