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False Colours Group Read Feb 2020 Chapters 1-11
message 51:
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Cheryl
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Feb 04, 2020 03:39AM
I'm in the camp that thinks Amabel should have been able to at least manage her personal accounts by the time she reached her forties. Even back then, women managed their pin money or even sometimes the household accounts, and this woman can't even stop spending when the money runs out! I suspect she probably is addicted to spending and gambling, but that just means even her real devotion to her sons isn't to make her change her ways when her extravagance affects them, starting in their childhood. I think its a credit to Heyer's skill that her very real charm comes through.
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Susan in Perthshire wrote: ".........Failing to appreciate that if you keep ‘buying’ things with money you don’t actually have - then your debt will simply keep increasing is not simply ‘not being good with numbers’. Amabel clearly understands that but has no intention of cutting her clothes to fit her cloth!."This reminds me of Anne's father and sister in Persuasion
Nick wrote: "QNPoohBear wrote: "Women weren't expected to handle money."I'm not sure that Georgian women weren't expected to handle money. Everything I've read about the period says that women were supposed t..."
I agree with both of your points, Nick! Women were often (usually) expected to balance their household accounts (some of those lists of bills and payments are extensive!) If they were very wealthy, the housekeeper might do them up, but the mistress of the house would still be expected to ok them. Of course, the exception to the rule is the hopefully charming nitwit who just "can't" bother her pretty little head with details, which is what Amabel is. I hate to say that she's shallow and vain, but she's lived on her charm alone for so long that that's what she is. And her family sounds like a bust.
Kit's humor with his mama's young poet just cracked me up. Gout, yet!
Just started this afternoon & four chapters read in a flash!
Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "Barb in Maryland wrote: "It has been so long since I last read this that I had forgotten the twins age--a mere 24 years old. (Which makes mama in her early 40s, btw.) Anyway, Ki..."Yup, page 61 of my copy gives Lady D's age as 43.
Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Brilliant scene setting from the beginning with Kit’s arrival and his encounter with his mother and the decision to pose as his missing. brother. It was during this scene that I remembered how much..."Very good analysis, and you’re right - as the mother of a rather naive young man myself, I find it appalling as I return to this book and read beyond chapter two, that she manipulates him by comparing him to his father and uncle. Nice! Granted, he was a monster in his marriage to her, but perhaps he might have had admirable qualities as a man his sons might have emulated; way to mess with your sons minds!
Nick wrote: "Susan in Perthshire wrote: "She is not a girl but a 43 year old woman who has remained a stubborn child in her refusal to learn. Yes, I understand she married a man 15 years older than her straight..."Great point, about the gambling, almost forgot that - like you and Susan, I don’t appreciate adults trying to abdicate personal responsibility, especially when it comes to your children.
QNPoohBear wrote: "I feel sorry for Amabel. She did what she was supposed to do: marry a man and conform to gender norms of the day. Women weren't expected to handle money. When my grandfather died after 60 years of ..."Good points - as a twin, I agree, not my favorite trope - mind you, my twin and I are fraternal and have opposite coloring, brown hair/eyes vs. blondish brown hair, hazel eyes. I might feel different if we had been identical and could’ve gotten away with it! ;)
Margaret wrote: "Intelligence comes in different forms. The sort that handles money (and numbers in general) well is quite different from the sort that is perceptive about people and can handle them well. I'm perfe..."Clearly - she’s a master at handling her sons and her many admirers, like Sir Bonamy!
Susan in NC wrote: "Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Brilliant scene setting from the beginning with Kit’s arrival and his encounter with his mother and the decision to pose as his missing. brother. It was during this scen..."Yes, that was the scene that really made me grimace! She tries to make Kit feel that he is wrong to be principled and sensible: that somehow that made him boring. I didn't like that at all. Especially as I read on through the book and realised what an utterly delightful, principled young man he was.
Susan in Perthshire wrote: "I do appreciate that not everyone shares my disapproval of Amabel. That’s fine of course, but I think there is a huge difference between ‘not being good with numbers” and selfishly continuing to sp..."I agree with you - even if handling money overwhelmed or simply bored her, she could understand to stop spending so much - for her children’s sake, if nothing else! Having to put up with the sermons from her husband and other such men would’ve made me want to avoid the feeling they were controlling my life...
It’s the sheer staggering size of her debt that blows my mind, she’s amusing and beautiful, and clearly loves her sons, but it’s the entitlement that’s sickening- had to have the expensive green room because someone said she looked best in green, but then it’s an unlucky number, so she’ll totally redecorate again? She’s clearly not stupid, but can’t grasp that that’s costing more money and simply adds to the problem? Some of her synapses aren’t firing or something!
Julie wrote: "Jackie wrote: "Margaret wrote: "Intelligence comes in different forms. The sort that handles money (and numbers in general) well is quite different from the sort that is perceptive about people and..."Yes!
I worry about the people Lady D owes money to - they will none of them be rich, and rely on people paying for their goods and services to make ends meet. I must admit that I'm one of the ones that find her irritating, (rather like Venetia's mother but with the saving grace that she does love her children) but must take GH's word for it that she is fascinating and lovable in the flesh.
Mod
Not necessarily just the unhappy marriage, is it? The life of a lady of fashion seems pretty empty.
You can't do anything that will make you look fast, eccentric, intellectual or hard up; you certainly can't get a job; all your day to day needs are taken care of by servants; you don't even have much to do with your own children.
You've got needlework (as long as you don't actually make your own clothes); music (on keyboards or harp only, to be played at certain types of social gathering only - no chance of joining a choir, or a band); for exercise you can walk or ride in the park, and in the evenings, dance socially (you certainly can't run, swim, go to the gym or play any competitive sport beyond billiards, nor take up clog dancing or flamenco).
If it's all right by your husband / father you can, like Serena (Bath Tangle) go in for politics in a supporting role, or in the country, hunt, but you haven't got a vote and you can't shoot. You can go to the opera, concerts and the theatre to watch other people, but not perform yourself (except extremely privately, if the rest of your family are up for it).
Jenny (in A Civil Contract) (view spoiler). Cecilia (The Grand Sophy) makes the same point when telling her obtuse Papa how she has spent the day.
Really, it's no wonder that so many of them get addicted to gambling and shopping.
Come to think of it, a lot of the idle young men are in the same boat, aren't they? Or even idle older men, who ought to know better but presumably got into bad habits when they were idle young men: think of Lord Ombersley (Grand Sophy), Adam's late father and brother (Civil Contract) and indeed, the Prince Regent and all his set, who could add drink and loose women to their vices.
Mod
Well, the point is that poor people have to work hard, full stop! They've got something to do with their lives, and though they might in desperation turn to drink ('Dead Drunk For Twopence') they don't have to resort to gambling and shopping to fill their lives.
Don't know how anyone else feels about him but I like Sir Bonamy Ripple and don't you just love that name!!!!
Teresa wrote: "Don't know how anyone else feels about him but I like Sir Bonamy Ripple and don't you just love that name!!!!"He's a sweetheart!
Amabel, Lady Denville, reminds me of Lydia Bennet in Pride and Prejudice. Lydia buys an ugly bonnet - just because when her father doesn't have enough money left to support them when he dies. When she (view spoiler) she has no sense of the gravity of the situation, what's she's done. She's smug about it too. Lydia just doesn't understand anything except her own amusement and I expect Lady Denville is the same. I think Evelyn is cut from the same cloth.
I wonder where Evelyn is and if he ran off because he couldn't face offering for Cressy even if it meant breaking the trust? Kit seems like a better person but he's on the verge of ruining things representing his brother.
I've completely forgotten what Evelyn is up to all this time. It's a bit troublesome that people keep saying he wasn't at Ascot. Money or women?
Mod
Yes!
Mod
I think GH is generally unsympathetic towards all the wretched people that her irresponsible characters owe money to! Remember the poor tradesman that nearly had the dog set on him when he had the temerity to try and get his money out of Elinor ( The Reluctant Widow)? Their persistence may or may not be a problem to the characters, but the characters' failure or refusal to pay is never recognised as a problem for them.
Did she have debt problems herself?
Jenny wrote: "Did she have debt problems herself?"Yes, she did, I'm afraid. IIRC, at one point in her life she was thousands of pounds in debt to local tradesmen (I seem to remember a large amount owed to the grocer especially. It shocked me when I was reading the biography because it's so strange to imagine that less than 100 years ago one could run up debts with a food supplier. Imagine trying to open an account at your local supermarket nowadays).
I rather think that part of the debts were due to spending huge sums on doing up her rented home.
Funnily enough, despite knowing about that I never made any connection between Heyer and Amabel. I'm sure Heyer was more like her sharp, spiky heroines.
Teresa wrote: "Don't know how anyone else feels about him but I like Sir Bonamy Ripple and don't you just love that name!!!!"Like so many of her names I think this comes from the name of a village - near Deal in Kent. Staveley is another village near Chesterfield. Others are Adlestrop (also famous poem by Edward Thomas), Askham, Baverstock etc. It's fun following them all up.
I didn't know that Barbara. Thanks for the info. I think Adlestrop has some connection with Jane Austen too if I'm not mistaken.
Mod
Well, it's not that long ago that I had newspapers and milk delivered 'on tick' and would settle up when next I was passing the newsagent or when the milkman called for the money; when I was a child my mother had a regular delivery of groceries (checking off the list when they arrived was one of the little jobs we helped with) and I suppose she must have had an account there too - I never thought about it. But then ... that, now I come to think of it, is already 60 years ago !
Growing up we lived on tick. We wouldn't have survived otherwise. My mother paid off so much every week but I can still remember an outstanding amount to be paid when my father died. It was just the way things were.
I´m just starting this for the first time, and I´m also reading the Sourcebook edition. Haven´t read your posts yet in fear of spoilers, but will join in after I read the first 11 chapters.
It's been a long time since I've read this -- not a favorite, because I don't enjoy the Big Lie as a plot device. The constant tension it creates is frustrating to me and does not make for relaxing reading. I'm also finding that, with the exception of Kit and Cressy, I don't really like most of these characters. Those two, however, I really do like. Cressy especially is one of GH's most appealing heroines. In the face of an extremely unhappy situation, she keeps her unhappiness to herself while actively looking for a way out. Her situation is an interesting contrast with Bath Tangle -- (view spoiler)
I agree with the assessment of Lady Denville -- as far as her financial situation, she doesn't get it, doesn't *want* to get it, and has absolutely no intention of *trying* to get it.
Sir Bonamy -- he is a joy, though, isn't he? I hadn't thought of it before, but isn't "bon ami" French for "good friend"? He definitely is the best friend that Lady Denville has ever had, and the one she can always rely on. An unexpected good guy.
I am absolutely loving the audio version narrated by Phyllida Nash. I'm so glad I started early in January because life is getting a little bit chaotic for me right now and there isn't much listening time.Whoever (Critterbee maybe?) posted the info at the beginning of this thread about GH's daughter in law, thank you, that was really interesting and new info to me.
Critterbee, I also love the nickname "Kit" and also the nickname (view spoiler)
Teresa, I agree that Sir Bonamy Ripple is such a great name and I love the way GH wrote his character, especially so in the later chapters!
I am one who looooves Lady D and the way GH wrote her character as a feminine widgeon with a kind heart. I think her character completely fits the time period and the socioeconomic class. And, obviously, not all women of the period were silly and "useless", as evidenced by the way GH wrote the character of Cressy. And I try to not worry about all the poor tradespeople who don't get paid because, ..... well, it's a "Regency" book by GH and I try to read from the perspective of the main characters who are part of the high society "ton". I try to ignore my modern ideas while reading these type books. Basically, I'm also just a "widgeon" and prefer to immerse myself in the fluff and fun of the story and not worry about all the other stuff. Also I love that the twins (view spoiler) adore Lady D and accept her and love her just as she is; I think it's a testament to the way she raised them that they so tenderly love her and understand her and want to take care of her (no matter the cost), it's really rather sweet.
p.s. - [from the Royal Escape from the Topic thread] I'm wondering if anyone is following Susan's suggestion and tippling while they join in with this discussion? (Hot tea is my tipple of the moment - "spiced" up with cream and sugar. So that tells you how fabulous and fun I am! Fabulously boring!! 😀)
I have to laugh at the sort of one-ups-manship between Kit and Cressy, in terms of who has the most objectionable relatives.I'm reminded of my own wedding reception, when one of my great-uncles cornered my new husband and, by way of introduction, announced, "I'm your Uncle Chic, I'm an ugly old coot, and there's nothing you can do about it!"
Elza wrote: "I have to laugh at the sort of one-ups-manship between Kit and Cressy, in terms of who has the most objectionable relatives.I'm reminded of my own wedding reception, when one of my great-uncles c..."
That's great, Elza! I always thought my family was crazy, until I married into my husband's... His makes mine look good!
Oh, Elza, that's funny! I think I could like your Uncle Chic!!
I should clarify that he was not an objectionable relative, just an interesting one! I never think of him and Aunt Billy Bob without smiling. (And how's that for some Southern names? LOL)
Hah!! I'm sure there's got to be a Billy Bob somewhere on my Southern family tree, but I'm guessing it's an Uncle and not an Aunt! My own Daddy's first name is "Billy", not William... only in the South! :)
My husband had an uncle named B.A. Yep, didn't stand for anything, just B.A.
It struck me just now that Bonamy Ripple sounds like an ice cream flavor. Definitely one of Heyer's most memorable names.
It was the mark of a gentleman or lady NOT to pay tradesmen's bills. Gentlemen always paid their gambling debts if they could and put off the tradesmen. This comes up a lot in Heyer's books and in the Poldark saga, George Warleggan, banker and grandson of a blacksmith tries very hard to climb the social ladder but just does.not.get.it what being a gentleman is all about. He's all about money and getting it, keeping it and spending it to advance his own social climbing goals. The gentry just don't have money and spend money they don't have.We still live on "tick" today- it's called credit cards. I don't buy anything I don't have the cash to back up but most everyone else I know does it all the time.
Elza wrote: "It struck me just now that Bonamy Ripple sounds like an ice cream flavor. Definitely one of Heyer's most memorable names."oh, my gosh, it does sound like an ice cream flavor!
lot this thread: many, many excellent posts.
So if you were creating an ice cream flavor to honor Sir Bonamy Ripple, what would you put in it?
Vanilla Ice Cream, Butterscotch Swirl, with bits of toffee!
I was thinking chocolate and cherries.
I was thinking plum swirl (because I'll bet Bonamy has a plummy voice)
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "I was thinking plum swirl (because I'll bet Bonamy has a plummy voice)" 😂😂😂And some kind of expensive alcohol flavour, too! Can you have champagne ice-cream?
Nick wrote: "Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "I was thinking plum swirl (because I'll bet Bonamy has a plummy voice)" 😂😂😂And some kind of expensive alcohol flavour, too! Can you have champagne ice-cream?"
Oh that would be so lovely!
Champagne ice cream sounds amazing! And something a little sweet - but not too sweet: Kir Royale Ice Cream!
What do you think of Lady Denville's brother and family? I feel sorry for Emma to have such a tight-fisted, gloomy, probably bullying husband and crazy son.
QNPoohBear wrote: "What do you think of Lady Denville's brother and family? I feel sorry for Emma to have such a tight-fisted, gloomy, probably bullying husband and crazy son."I haven't gotten that far yet and I see much of the group is way out in front of me. hoping I can catch up this weekend.
QNPoohBear wrote: "What do you think of Lady Denville's brother and family? I feel sorry for Emma to have such a tight-fisted, gloomy, probably bullying husband and crazy son."He's a right pain in the behind!! As for that son, heaven help him in life, he's going to need it.
Ambrose is massively spoiled and needs a break from his parents to learn to be a man. He perks up a bit when Kit takes him shooting.
I agree. He seems to be an only child and so his mother dotes on him!! It doesn't help him of course and if someone doesn't step in to steer him in the right direction he's going to end up hating her.
I just don’t understand why anyone would want to spend any time at all with them - absolute nightmare!
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Persuasion (other topics)False Colours (other topics)
False Colours (other topics)
False Colours (other topics)
False Colours (other topics)
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