A Dance with Dragons
discussion
Most hated subplots
I admit I skipped Bran's chapters. I'm really not interested in anything to do with him. Tyrion's chapters also bored me, apart from the last two (I hope he gets better to his old self in the next instalment). I was disappointed by Quentyn, especially as Martells are my favourite family. Two chapters would be enough to tell his story.
I don't mind Davos, I actually like him.
I think Bran's plot is getting tedious. There are only so many coma-nightmares, days on Hodor's back and periods of time becoming a tree that I can endure.Also, resurrection at the mighty hands of R'hllor. At this point, it just looks like a major deus ex machina to me. Someone important is dead? No sweat, get a red priest in there and we'll fix 'em right up. I prefer it when dead characters stay dead.
Caroline wrote: "I think Bran's plot is getting tedious. There are only so many coma-nightmares, days on Hodor's back and periods of time becoming a tree that I can endure.Also, resurrection at the mighty hands o..."
Oh God, yes. R'hllor is really starting to bug the crap out of me. And I have mixed feelings about Qyburn's experiments as well.
To me, Tyrion seems to be one of the few characters in this book with any real intelligence, and he is waaaay too good for Sansa. I hate her. As in she is one of my least favorite characters. I don't know how anyone can say "poor Sansa" because I hated her from the start and most of the things she has "been through" have been brought on by her bratty, selfish, ridiculousness. If she ends up the champ of the GOT, I will be pissed.
I don't think we need to worry about her becoming any kind of champion at anything. Up until now, she's mostly been a naive, stereotypical "damsel in distress" in everything that happened to her - she's an extremely passive character. I think the most we should expect of her is embroidering napkins for whoever she ends up being married off to.
I still feel sorry for Tyrion for having to marry her.
Oops, I just walked into the misogynistic section of this forum... I will just walk out again. Not worth any more typing than this.
Laura wrote: "Oops, I just walked into the misogynistic section of this forum... I will just walk out again. Not worth any more typing than this."Seriously?? For what? not liking Sansa? Also, most of the posters in this discussion appear to be women.
And wow.. you cried in another thread when I called you silly, but without any explanation you can call a bunch of people misogynistic? Guess at the very least that makes you a hypocrite.
How about you provide some details for your thoughts and feelings. Because looking back over the thread and I don't really see the misogyny... at least not bad enough to warrant that kind of response.
Shawn wrote: "Laura wrote: "Oops, I just walked into the misogynistic section of this forum... I will just walk out again. Not worth any more typing than this."Seriously?? For what? not liking Sansa? Also, ..."
"I don't know how anyone can say "poor Sansa" because I hated her from the start and most of the things she has "been through" have been brought on by her bratty, selfish, ridiculousness."
"I still feel sorry for Tyrion for having to marry her."
"he's too good for Sansa"
"stereotypical "damsel in distress""
"I think the most we should expect of her is embroidering napkins for whoever she ends up being married off to."
(Women can be misogynistic as well, did you not know?)
I'm still not seeing how I am showing hatred or prejudice against WOMEN (the definition of misogyny) because I state reasons for not liking a female character in a book.
I've been accused of being a feminazi at times, but never a misogynist. And for the record, I actually kinda like Sansa. She grew on me. But I still think she's a terrible match for Tyrion and vice-versa.
@Laura:None of that comes across as misogynistic.
It comes across as dislike for a single character, who happens to be female.
If they had been... "All women in ASoIaF are horrid and stupid and worthless.. blah blah blah" you might have something to go on... but they didn't. they are complaining about one single character. It doesn't fit.
And yes, I know women can misogynistic. Buuuut there really isn't any evidence of it in this thread.
Expressing disdain for ONE female character does not equal misogyny. I have always been anti-Theon, does that make me a man-hater?
I'll try this once again. It's the reasons why you dislike Sansa, not the fact that you dislike Sansa.Disliking her because she's a damsel in distress is certainly very misogynistic. She is not only a damsel, but a child really, and she's being abused by a mad king and then groomed by a perv, so she's in distress. She can't do much about it (and even so, she kind of did) because that's the way she was brought up. And hating her for that is, indeed, very misogynistic.
Feeling that Tyrion was "too good for Sansa" seems based on the common argument (from other threads and forum pages) that she should have felt honored to marry him instead of disdaining him. She should have been happy to marry a member of the enemy family who butchered hers and, by all means, let him have sex with her at the age of 12-13... So that would be misogynistic. If not, I would like another explanation what "too good for Sansa" really means.
The idea that she deserved the horrible things that happened to her because she was a brat is mere victim blaming. Using "" for the things she has "been through" diminishes how horrible these things were (I wish to see how you react to being forced to watch the severed head of your father, or being stripped and beaten by a big strong man in front of a whole bunch of people at the age of 11). That argument is a big "she asked for it" and it's intrinsically misogynistic and sadistic. Granted, if you feel the same way about, say, what Ramsay does to Theon, then you're not misogynistic, just sadistic.
Do I really need to explain why the "embroidering napkins" sentence is misogynistic? LOL really?
Let's not drag other forums and pages into my comment about Tyrion being too good for her. I did NOT mean that she should be grateful for a Lannister or should want to have sex with him. (And if Tyrion had made her consummate the marriage, I think I would have hated him.)I meant that she could never treat him with kindness (mostly due to the horrible things his family did to her) but he did what he could to be kind to her. They're just poorly matched and were both miserable with the marriage. It made me hate Tywin more.
Again, I actually like her, but face it, she is incapable of empathy for him, thanks to his asshole family- and even if she was, she could never stimulate him intellectually or appreciate his wit. I'm not counting that against her character, just stating facts. She has her own virtues and a different sort of smarts. Hell, in some cases she's smarter than Tyrion in regards to keeping her mouth shut in certain circumstances that never go well for him when he unleashes the snark.
Laura wrote: "Disliking her because she's a damsel in distress is certainly very misogynistic."Nonsense. Disliking a character because she is a damsel in distress suggests that one prefers a strong and capable female character. The very opposite of misogynistic.
"Feeling that Tyrion was "too good for Sansa" seems based on the common argument (from other threads and forum pages) that she should have felt honored to marry him instead of disdaining him."
No, it's based on the fact that Tyrion is many people's favorite character, and rightfully so. He has so many likable qualities that go so unappreciated by nearly all the characters, Sansa included. I don't dislike Sansa, I actually think she's a little underrated and we have yet to see her full potential. However, I do think she let herself down a little bit here by not realizing that Tyrion, although a Lannister, is clearly not her enemy and that if she only gave him the slightest chance, he would have loved her and done anything for her.
The idea that this is misogynistic would mean people feel Sansa should submit to Tyrion purely because he's a man and she's a woman. That's not what people are saying.
"The idea that she deserved the horrible things that happened to her because she was a brat is mere victim blaming."
Well, I don't agree with the comments that Sansa brought this on herself, or that the most we can hope for from her is embroidery. However, I still don't see how this is misogynistic - again, it suggests that people prefer to see a female character who doesn't define the submissive, hand wringing, damsel in distress who waits for someone to rescue her rather than fighting for her own survival.
You do understand that misogyny is a hatred or prejudice for women in general - if a reader dislikes Sansa but loves many of the other female characters in the book, that directly conflicts with the definition of misogynistic. A true misogynist would find fault and unfair criticism with every female character - but especially with the strong, bold, independent ones like Arya, not Sansa.
As Robin pointed out.. Laura flat out does not understand the word Misogyny.Not liking a specific woman.. or not liking her choices.. or xyz about her.. is NOT misogyny.
As for Sansa.. I don't really care about her. I think the people that screwed that kid up are her parents and the shitty writing of GRRM.
I wouldnt call them feminine as much as i would call them passive. and again.. i would blame a lot of how she acts upon her upbringing and a the situations she has been thrust into. Again.. i don't dislike her. i just dont care about her either. it is hard to care about anyone in this series... which is half the reason it is so blah after almost 20 years.
Cemre wrote: "Sansa adjusts to her situation. If Arya were at her place, Joff would have killed her like seventy times. Knowing when to shut up even when you're provoked and adjusting to situation is a talent. ..."
Agreed, this is why I think Sansa is a bit underrated. I'm not so sure that she adapts, just that her natural instincts wound up being a asset in this situation. Sansa would never have survived in Arya's situation but equally, Arya never would have survived at court.
Disliking Sansa for not being more like Arya might be misplaced, but it's not misogynistic.
Robin wrote: "Nonsense. Disliking a character because she is a damsel in distress suggests that one prefers a strong and capable female character. The very opposite of misogynistic."That's exactly it. If you hate Sansa for being a damsel in distress that IS misogynistic. It is disdaining a woman for conforming to the role that was assigned to her by her society and taught by her mother, and there is nothing wrong about that. Disdaining a woman for not being a badass warrior IS misogynistic. Disdaining a woman who was raised as a noble lady for wanting to marry and make baby princes as a life goal IS MISOGYNISTIC. Who hates Jaime Lannister BECAUSE he wanted to be Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning and fulfill the knight in shiny armor dream? (I'm not asking who hates Jaime, I'm asking who hates him because he's a knight).
And for the ones who criticize the victim-blaming example, if you had read my whole comment, you would have seen "Granted, if you feel the same way about, say, what Ramsay does to Theon, then you're not misogynistic, just sadistic", which sounds to me like an acknowledgment of what you just said.
The Sansa/Tyrion history... people who hate Sansa for not falling for him or for not being nice to him forget that WE, the readers, know Tyrion's thoughts and motivations, but Sansa DOES NOT. Joffrey was nice to her at the beginning, then see what happened. Cersei was nice to her too, then see what happened. Why in seven hells would she trust another Lannister being nice to her, especially one that hopes to do her so that he can have a claim on Winterfell?
Sansa should have never trusted the first Lannister. Her own family members try, countless times, to warn her off the obsession with Joffrey, but she persists anyway. That naive single-mindedness is what starts her on her path. Her fault. She even betrayed her sister for Joffrey, which backfires when it gets her wolf killed, and she still persists on the Joffrey thing. How stupid can u be?
Laura wrote: "That's exactly it. If you hate Sansa for being a damsel in distress that IS misogynistic. It is disdaining a woman for conforming to the role that was assigned to her by her society and taught by her mother, and there is nothing wrong about that. Disdaining a woman for not being a badass warrior IS misogynistic. Disdaining a woman who was raised as a noble lady for wanting to marry and make baby princes as a life goal IS MISOGYNISTIC. Who hates Jaime Lannister BECAUSE he wanted to be Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning and fulfill the knight in shiny armor dream? (I'm not asking who hates Jaime, I'm asking who hates him because he's a knight)."No, misogyny is a disdain for a woman simply for being a woman, not because of any particular behavior on her part. I'm sorry but your idea of what the word means is not accurate and no amount of capital letters and bolding and underlining will change that. Look it up in the dictionary, there is no mention of it being based on certain behavior - it is purely and simply a "dislike of women".
To me, it seems as though calling anyone who dislikes a character that happens to be female as misogynistic is just a knee jerk reaction by someone who has little to no valid defense against the criticism of a character she likes.
"The Sansa/Tyrion history... people who hate Sansa for not falling for him or for not being nice to him forget that WE, the readers, know Tyrion's thoughts and motivations, but Sansa DOES NOT. Joffrey was nice to her at the beginning, then see what happened. Cersei was nice to her too, then see what happened. Why in seven hells would she trust another Lannister being nice to her, especially one that hopes to do her so that he can have a claim on Winterfell?"
While it's true that Sansa can't read Tyrion's thoughts like the reader can, it's no secret that Cersei, Joffrey, and Tywin despise Tyrion and would happily see him dead. Sansa is blind if she can't see that. The enemy of my enemy is my friend... a lesson Sansa obviously never learned. I'm not saying she should have fallen for him or had sex with him - but if she'd used her brain, she might have realized that she could use Tyrion's estrangement from his family to further her cause.
@Laura:As Robin just pointed out.. you really do not understand what misogyny is. It is disliking someone because of their gender. Not because of what gender role they are filling or how well they are doing it or anything like that. It is simply dislike for someone only because of what body parts they have.
Disliking a stereotype is not misogyny. She keeps making shitty decisions and she never learns from her mistakes. Ever. That is why people get annoyed with her. Not because she has a vagina.
Anyways. Read Robin's post.. it is pretty spot on.
Well, I didn't hate Sansa, since it was an accident, but yes, if the genders were reversed I'd have the exact same irritation with the behavior.And if our prince was subsequently held prisoner and beaten and suffered the same things I'd feel just as bad for the poor kid.
You both can bring on the dictionary all you want, the fact remains that, disliking a woman for the reasons you dislike her is misogynistic. If it makes you feel better about yourself to think that it's not, that is your business, but it doesn't make it true.Sansa was raised to behave like a lady. That behavior you deem "damsel in distress" is linked to her gender, because men are never raised to behave in this way. So YES, you are hating her for having a vagina, because if she had been born with a cock, she would have been trained as a squire, soldier, knight, etc, and not a lady who embroiders and sings and stuff. So, misogynistic. Thus, hating/disliking a woman for this is, whether you like to admit it or not, misogynistic. Being a "damsel in distress" cannot be applied to a man. DAMSEL is a female term, last time I checked a dictionary (yes, I also have one, surprise surprise).
Again, and Cemre also mentioned this, nobody is hating any male character BECAUSE they are a knight, warrior, soldier, fighter, which is what's linked to their gender in that world and what they were raised to do.
If you had declared your dislike toward Sansa because, for example, she was a brat in the first book, or because she's covering for Littlefinger's lies, or whatever other reason, I would probably agree on some and disagree on others, but I would not call you misogynistic. I think Cersei Lannister is a terrible person (although I don't really hate her), and that doesn't make me misogynistic, because the reasons why I think that have nothing to do with her gender or the gender role she has chosen, wanted or was caught up in.
Your defense of the Tyrion story is entertaining, because it holds as much passion as inaccuracy and lack of thought. You keep thinking that Sansa knows everything a reader knows and, furthermore, that she would interpret it in the same manner as any regular Tyrion fan. Please, show me quotes from the books where Sansa had the opportunity to witness this sheer hatred of Cersei and Joffrey against Tyrion, before the Purple Wedding (because that was, you know, when she was snatched away). Tyrion's words to Sansa do not count, of course.
Laura wrote: "You both can bring on the dictionary all you want, the fact remains that, disliking a woman for the reasons you dislike her is misogynistic. If it makes you feel better about yourself to think that..."LOL that's some kind of denial you're in, refusing to believe the dictionary and insisting that your personal definition of the word is correct. It's not just the dictionaries - also check out Wikipedia which has lengthy descriptions of the societal meaning of misogyny.
http://dictionary.reference.com/brows...
1. hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women, or prejudice against women.
http://dictionary.reference.com/brows...
1. reflecting or exhibiting hatred, dislike, mistrust, or mistreatment of women.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictio...
: a hatred of women
http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/119829?...
Hatred or dislike of, or prejudice against women.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny
Misogyny
"Woman hater" redirects here. For other uses, see Woman Hater (disambiguation).
Misogyny (/mɪˈsɒdʒɪni/) is the hatred or dislike of women or girls.
Definitions
According to sociologist Allan G. Johnson, "misogyny is a cultural attitude of hatred for females because they are female." Johnson argues that:
Misogyny .... is a central part of sexist prejudice and ideology and, as such, is an important basis for the oppression of females in male-dominated societies. Misogyny is manifested in many different ways, from jokes to pornography to violence to the self-contempt women may be taught to feel toward their own bodies.[4]
Sociologist Michael Flood, at the University of Wollongong, defines misogyny as the hatred of women, and notes:
Though most common in men, misogyny also exists in and is practiced by women against other women or even themselves. Misogyny functions as an ideology or belief system that has accompanied patriarchal, or male-dominated societies for thousands of years and continues to place women in subordinate positions with limited access to power and decision making. [...] Aristotle contended that women exist as natural deformities or imperfect males [...] Ever since, women in Western cultures have internalised their role as societal scapegoats, influenced in the twenty-first century by multimedia objectification of women with its culturally sanctioned self-loathing and fixations on plastic surgery, anorexia and bulimia.[5]
Dictionaries define misogyny as "hatred of women"[6][7][8] and as "hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women".[9] In 2012, primarily in response to events occurring in the Australian Parliament, the Macquarie Dictionary (which documents Australian English and New Zealand English) expanded the definition to include not only hatred of women but also "entrenched prejudices against women".[10] The counterpart of misogyny is misandry, the hatred or dislike of men; the antonym of misogyny is philogyny, the love or fondness of women.
-----------------
Note the parts I bolded because they prove that misogyny is a practice intended to put women in submissive, subordinate positions in society, much like the role Sansa plays. Since misogyny supports these submissive roles, then opposing a character who supports these submissive roles is the opposite of misogyny.
Cemre wrote: "Would you hate her if she were a knight-wannabe boy who was in love with a princess and who was blind to her mistakes and accidentally betrayed his family as a result ?"Yes. I would be just as annoyed. Especially if he never learned from his own mistakes.
Laura wrote: "You both can bring on the dictionary all you want, the fact remains that, disliking a woman for the reasons you dislike her is misogynistic. If it makes you feel better about yourself to think that it's not, that is your business, but it doesn't make it true."
That is seriously the dumbest thing I have read/heard lately, and I watch/read the news and we have a lot of really fucking dumb politicians..
Dictionaries and definitions don't matter? Seriously? Grow up. Just because you want to use a word doesn't mean it is the right word to use for your argument.
There are women in Martin's books that are feminine women, that are also strong within their roles. Hell Cersei is one. I don't like her choices, but I give her respect for being a strong woman inside the construction of Martin's shitty world.
Just within the stark house, it proves you wrong. Because there are a lot of kids, and not all are raised the same. Look at Arya. I don't dislike Arya because she is a woman, regardless of what role she is in. If I was misogynistic, I wouldn't like her no matter what, because she has a vagina.
I will state again, since you don't seem to read -- something I noticed last time as well -- I don't hate Sansa. I just think she is an idiot that never learns from her mistakes. She is content to be a pawn. And I don't like that type of personality. In books, in real life, in Survivor, it doesn't matter. I like people who take control of their own lives, for good or bad and make mistakes, but then learn from them. Regardless of their roles in society. She doesn't. Hence, my disdain for her.
Also, pay attention to Robin. Learn something. Maybe then next time you won't come across as someone that learned some new word from a word-a-day calendar and decided to use it to insult a bunch of people.
There needs to be a new internet rule that whenever a dictionary is brought into play, the argument is forever lost.
She has had choices. Martin chose to not let her make any of them though. Again, I don't even necessarily blame Sansa. She is a child. I do blame her parents, and the shitty writing of Martin.It isn't bad to dislike Sansa for xyz reasons. Just like it isn't bad if other people can see good in her. As she grows up.. maybe she will get better. And man will all her mistakes haunt her. But that isn't what we are dealing with now.
But it is not misogyny unless you also hate every other single woman in the story as well, for the simple reason that they are women.
Sansa isn't the greatest character and even putting her early behavior aside (difficult to judge a character as who they were at the beginning of the series when they have been through so much and changed so much), I have some criticism. But she's not all bad - her shining moments were when she was brave and clever enough to risk Joffrey's wrath and save a drunk stranger from execution - and her tolerant, mothering role with Robert. After everything she's been through and she can still find it in her heart to take care of someone who needs her. She's not some spoiled little brat anymore - would the Sansa in the first book have taken on the role of carer to a whiny little boy who may be suffering from some developmental problem, especially with the patience and soothing that she has? Not a chance. Like I say, I think Sansa is still growing and we have yet to see her full potential. Now that she is in a safe environment (as safe as can be with Littlefinger), I think we will continue to see more evidence of a better Sansa. She will never be outspoken, bold, and independent, but there are other qualities a person can possess.
Shawn wrote: "But it is not misogyny unless you also hate every other single woman in the story as well, for the simple reason that they are women."That's simply wrong. If you want to convince yourself that hating a woman for being a damsel in distress is not misogynistic, you go at it, feel better about yourself. Translated to modern times, a person who criticizes a woman for being a "stay at home" mom instead of a thriving professional is a misogynistic, even if that person doesn't hate every other woman in the world. But that wouldn't suit your self-comforting, would it?
If you truly think that being misogynistic only means to hate every single woman , and as long as you like one woman you're off the hook, you're very much mistaken, and no amount of dictionary will fix you.
Lila wrote: "There needs to be a new internet rule that whenever a dictionary is brought into play, the argument is forever lost."It depends on how you use it. In this case, it was clearly used the wrong way. If instead of a dictionary, I had been shown essays from a psychologist or a sociologist, or, better yet, a specialist in gender studies, then I would have considered it under another light. The dictionary was used to say "if I don't hate all the females I am not misogynist". It doesn't take a genious to see that is blatantly wrong.
If we call out on a misogynistic society that limits women to a specific role, despising every woman who dares choosing something different, you're not being a feminist, you're just doing the same thing reverse.Feminism lays on the idea that women should choose the role that pleases them, no matter if that's embroidering napkins, practicing neurosurgery or fighting a war. If you start systematically despising all the women who choose or conform to a specific role (wife-and-mom role, damsel in distress, princess in the tower, etc), you're no better than people who systematically despise all the women who choose to be the warrior or the surgeon.
Disliking a woman for a reason that is intrinsically related to their gender is misogynistic, even if you admire other women with a passion, because you're only liking the women who conform to the gender role that is the right one for you.
Anna wrote: "I hated Tyrion's plot in ADWD. He used to be my favorite POV and now I found it torturous to get through his chaptes. It seemed to me that things moved extremely slowly, if at all, and then when th..."True! I think the only point of Quentin was to release the dragons! hahahaha
I also found Penny annoying - she is the one slowing down Tyrion's plot line.
I also don't like that there is another contender for the iron throne.
I didn't like Asha at first, but she's ok to me now, but I still don't get the point of her POVs and how they move the plot along. Can we just get rid of the iron born all together? Who cares what happens to them - they are just a 'wanna-be kingdom' of pirates
Speaking of a subplot I'd hated (I still don't love), I'm starting to rethink it.I HATED all of Melisandre's scenes and just flat out hate the character. Religious extremists creep me out and there are times when Mel reminds me of the Westeros equivalent to Carrie's mom.
However, now that we've encountered other Red priests, like Thoros and the ones in Essos, I noticed that they aren't nearly as nutty as she is. I also cannot fail to notice that not only is she unable to see anything about Dany, she is willfully ignoring insights about Jon.
I think George actually might be going somewhere with this, so I'm going to try to suspend my bias and creep-factor on my next reread.
Laura wrote: "It depends on how you use it. In this case, it was clearly used the wrong way. If instead of a dictionary, I had been shown essays from a psychologist or a sociologist, or, better yet, a specialist in gender studies, then I would have considered it under another light. The dictionary was used to say "if I don't hate all the females I am not misogynist". It doesn't take a genious to see that is blatantly wrong. "Actually I did also post quotes from experts that were on Wikipedia but you obviously either didn't read them or couldn't come up with a valid rebuttal so you ignored it.
Here it is again....
Note the parts I bolded because they prove that misogyny is a practice intended to put women in submissive, subordinate positions in society, much like the role Sansa plays. Since misogyny supports these submissive roles, then opposing a character who supports these submissive roles is the opposite of misogyny.
Definitions
According to sociologist Allan G. Johnson, "misogyny is a cultural attitude of hatred for females because they are female." Johnson argues that:
Misogyny .... is a central part of sexist prejudice and ideology and, as such, is an important basis for the oppression of females in male-dominated societies. Misogyny is manifested in many different ways, from jokes to pornography to violence to the self-contempt women may be taught to feel toward their own bodies.[4]
Sociologist Michael Flood, at the University of Wollongong, defines misogyny as the hatred of women, and notes:
Though most common in men, misogyny also exists in and is practiced by women against other women or even themselves. Misogyny functions as an ideology or belief system that has accompanied patriarchal, or male-dominated societies for thousands of years and continues to place women in subordinate positions with limited access to power and decision making. [...] Aristotle contended that women exist as natural deformities or imperfect males [...] Ever since, women in Western cultures have internalised their role as societal scapegoats, influenced in the twenty-first century by multimedia objectification of women with its culturally sanctioned self-loathing and fixations on plastic surgery, anorexia and bulimia.[5]
Dictionaries define misogyny as "hatred of women"[6][7][8] and as "hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women".[9] In 2012, primarily in response to events occurring in the Australian Parliament, the Macquarie Dictionary (which documents Australian English and New Zealand English) expanded the definition to include not only hatred of women but also "entrenched prejudices against women".[10] The counterpart of misogyny is misandry, the hatred or dislike of men; the antonym of misogyny is philogyny, the love or fondness of women.
^^^ Yes, this!However, I've decided to ignore Laura and get back to the subject of the thread. She should just go and start her own "If you hate Sansa, you hate women" discussion and quit clogging up this one on hated subplots. :D
Hell, this isn't even a character thread. It's about subplots.
Cemre wrote: "Has Sansa ever showed a hatred of women ? She was traditional but ı wouldn't say that she suffers from internalized misogyny. That's Cersei."Not that I could tell. The closest she came was thinking of other women at the Vale as "Children" after falsely remembering the Hound kissing her. But I think that was more of a normal teenage sense of sophistication than any gender issues. The funny thing is that her real maturity over them was all the crap she survived.
And yes, I agree 100% about Cersei.
Laura wrote: "Shawn wrote: "But it is not misogyny unless you also hate every other single woman in the story as well, for the simple reason that they are women."That's simply wrong. If you want to convince yo..."
You really don't read other people's posts. It is like trying to talk to someone that has their ears covered and is shouting LALLALALALALALA.
You just keep spouting the same bullshit and continue to misuse a word because you want to be right. Hell, if you hadn't been a child about it, and actually talked about how you felt it was wrong to condemn her for just being a damsel in distress, you would have gotten a completely different response. But instead, you looked up a random word and decided to insult everyone with it, even though you are blatantly wrong in its usage.
And I have been very specific about why I don't care for her. It has little to do with her gender or even her role, and everything to do with the choices she made within that role. You like Sansa, we get it. That doesn't mean the rest of us need to.
Misogyny is pretty clear cut. It doesn't have a ton of leeway for you to make it fit your desires. And disliking a role, like that of damsel in distress, is not misogyny. A role is just that, and she has responsibility for her own decisions within that role. Those decisions are what I don't like. And while there are a variety of reasons behind them, she is still responsible for her own actions.
It is like saying it is fine to be a housewife (something I don't think is wrong if that is what works for a family) and also saying it is fine that she chose to live with domestic abuse because it is sometimes part of that role. I disagree. Completely. And that doesn't make me misogynistic.
Also, disliking the idea of stay at home moms in and of itself is not misogynistic. It is disliking a role, which while can be tied to gender, does not have to be. There are plenty of stay at home dads. And like I said earlier.. what works for a family, works for a family and power to them. But no one has to like a role just because it works for someone else. If you actively try to prevent them from being able to be in that role, like what has actually happened in the real world, then yes, that would be misogyny. Because you are then working to prevent them from having options just because they are women.
It is really sad that you just don't seem to grasp this. It is one thing to make a mistake, but you are pushing it so hard that you just compound the problem and refuse to sit back, do some research, and learn and grow. Your argument for Sansa not being all bad, isn't a bad one when you aren't trying to shoe horn it into an argument for misogyny. But that is where it completely falls apart, and makes you look like you care more about being right about misogyny than you do about the character you are so ardently defending.
As for the dictionary.. frankly the argument is lost when someone repeatedly misuses a word, even after they have been corrected on the meaning. At that point their argument, no matter how good or bad, is lost in the repetition of what is wrong. If Laura had just said, she doesn't feel it is right to dislike Sansa because of xyz.. it would be one thing. It is another to attack others, especially using a word she isn't even using correctly. Also, Robin did provide her other references and was ignored. Which seems to be pretty typical of Laura from reading her posts in other discussions. She doesn't really read the majority of posts.
Anyways. Brooklyn has it right. Time to go back to ignoring Laura. She is a pretty good troll though.
LOL I stopped reading your answer when you mentioned Wikipedia as expert source. Have fun.
Laura wrote: "LOL I stopped reading your answer when you mentioned Wikipedia as expert source. Have fun."Wikipedia was quoting sociologists with reputable source citations - in fact, the quotes came directly from these books:
Johnson, Allan G (2000). "The Blackwell dictionary of sociology: A user's guide to sociological language". ISBN 978-0-631-21681-0. Retrieved November 21, 2011., ("ideology" in all small capitals in original).
The Blackwell Dictionary of Sociology by Allan G. Johnson
Flood, Michael (2007-07-18). "International encyclopedia of men and masculinities". ISBN 978-0-415-33343-6.
International Encyclopedia of Men and Masculinities by Michael Flood
You asked for essays from sociologists - here they are. Pick up these two books and maybe you'll learn something. But you won't because your massive denial won't allow it.
yet another mature grown up response from laura...
Shawn wrote: "yet another mature grown up response from laura..."Well, she is only 16 and despite the fact that her English appears very good, if she's a native German, then English isn't her first language. I've tried to give her the benefit of the doubt in that regard (her lack of understanding of the meaning of the word might stemmed from that) but she just refuses to admit she might be wrong. She demands comments from sociologists but when provided, the fact that they were quoted on Wikipedia isn't good enough for her, which is just an avoidance/distraction tactic. I'm curious to see what excuse she'll come up with next now that I've provided the sociology books the quotes came directly from.
::sigh:: and nobody's attacking me for my freely admitted Theophobia when it comes to Melisandre. :D
Right and all the Misandry in the hatred of the Mountain.. I mean he is just doing a role!!! How dare anyone dislike him!?
^^^ I know, right? What's up with that? Tsk tsk. Such a double standard.Seriously, the Robert Strong subplot has me rolling my eyes too.
Although I do give it points for me not catching it on my first read. Granted, I read it when I was in the ER on IV treatments of morphine and this crazy antibiotic in which one of the main side effects was "confusion." So yeah, I missed it the first time. I also missed the "Frey pies" which was pretty awesome on the reread.
This is getting better and better "Encyclopedia of Men and Masculinities" as an expert source for female gender issues. This is hilarious, please keep it coming. You made my coffee break amusing, thanks!
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International Encyclopedia of Men and Masculinities (other topics)
A Dance with Dragons (other topics)
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Books mentioned in this topic
The Blackwell Dictionary of Sociology: A User's Guide to Sociological Language (other topics)International Encyclopedia of Men and Masculinities (other topics)
A Dance with Dragons (other topics)
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Allan G. Johnson (other topics)Michael Flood (other topics)
Oh I agree. I also think he's too good for Sansa and hope to see him riding a dragon and invoking badassery. :D