A Dance with Dragons
discussion
Most hated subplots
I don't know why but I absolutely loathed that Robb's wife was descended from a line of witches (supposedly). It's given one line in the book and is clearly a throw-away but the way GRRM writes I thought, "oh, this is an important detail, store that little nugget away for later" and then- BAM- she's dead. So it's weird little tiny throw away back stories that drive me nuts.
I don't think Robb's wife is dead in the books. Last we heard Jamie had taken over Riverrun and found out that her mom is a scheming bi-atch and has her locked under guard. And there's some fan theories that she'd been spirited away. But now that you mention it, in the books I hated her whole lack of development. The show had her being a healer and getting to know Robb and charming him. In the books he just shows up at Riverrun all, "Hey Mom, I got married because she's hot." ::facepalm::
I thought she was stabbed in the narrative. I got that she did die at the wedding. Did you ever stop and wonder if GRRM was asked to be a groomsman or usher one too many times? That dude hates weddings!
LOL, I know! But, in the books, Jeyne Westerling (Robb's wife) had been left behind at Riverrun both Cat and Robb thought it would be wise to keep her out of sight so as not to provoke Walder Frey with her beauty (and to protect the heir if she was pregnant) In the books it wasn't known if she was pregnant or not when Robb was alive, and then Jeyne's mother "made sure" she wasn't pregnant after the Red Wedding. Still there's enough shady narrative that we could have a "OMG, Robb has an heir!" moment in the books. God, I hope not. There's already too much going on.
Brooklyn, thank you for that! I'm actually looking forward to this, but the only problem is that I bet dollars to donuts that GRRM just drops her like a hot potato. He doesn't seem like a all ends tied up type.
Wow, I thought that I was the only one who found the Lady Stoneheart development to be annoying and unnecessary.I, too, wonder at GRRM's tendency to make weddings horrific affairs. Maybe he once worked in some profession which required dealing with brides and their mothers? I am a former florist, and might still be a florist to this day....if it ' weren't for the brides.
Maybe that's how he worked through high school, as a busy boy for weddings. And he saw a woman bite off her finger? (Lady Hornwood?)
Brooklyn, I think that the lady Stoneheart plot is pivotal to the propelling of the story. Am I pleased with it? No, because I never liked Catelyn and I love Brienne to the moon and back, but she does seem to stir the pot, so she'll keep the book from dragging. Tyrion's tortured story is, I find, unnecessary. He doesn't do anything for the story, he's just whining about some woman that he loved like fifteen years ago. I could go a book without a single chapter from his point of view and be over the moon with joy. I know he's a fan favorite, but to me he's bottom of the ladder.
Daario doesn't have to be sexy. He doesn't have to be charming. I personally think he sounds unctuous and unappealing, but that made me like Dany more. She sees (or thinks she sees) something in him, and I like it when you see characters in all of their flawed glory. She fell for the bad boy. Everyone does once in a while.
I didn't like Robb. I didn't like his wife, who, if I remember correctly, came from a Lannister branch. What a moron...
I hated Tyrion's plot in ADWD. He used to be my favorite POV and now I found it torturous to get through his chaptes. It seemed to me that things moved extremely slowly, if at all, and then when things did happen there were always terrible things. I can't belive the whole book went by without him ever making it to his destination. And then there is Penny... I don't understand the purpose of her character. I find her annoying and irritating.
Also Quentyn Martell. I don't think he was worthy of POV chapters. I wish they would have just mention him in other POVs. I do feel sorry for him, but I was a little glad that he died. I would have been much more interested in knowing more about Arianne and the Sand Snakes.
I like Lady Stoneheart. I didn't like Caetlyn, but I liked the "holy shit she's undead" aspect of it. Haven't seen much of her though.Plots I don't care enough about to read chapters about them: Davos. I hate reading his chapters.
Daario doesn't have to be sexy. He doesn't have to be charming. I personally think he sounds unctuous and unappealing..."Daario sounds terrible. It makes me cringe everytime she describes him with his blue beard and golden teeth, but I also like that she finds him attactive that way. He is the complete opposite of what she is supposed to have as a Queen.
I'm glad they ignored the whole flamboyant look and portrayed him as a more
amiable man on the TV show.
Anna wrote: "I hated Tyrion's plot in ADWD. He used to be my favorite POV and now I found it torturous to get through his chaptes. It seemed to me that things moved extremely slowly, if at all, and then when th..."Me too! It's like he was declawed. (Lion joke) Thankfully GRRM has hinted that he's going to quit whining in TWOW. As for Penny, she bugs the shit out of me too, but I think that's intentional. Tyrion keeps stating that she reminds him of Sansa... and not in a good way. I'm hoping this is foreshadowing that he and Sansa WON'T end up together in the end.
Quentyn's chapters were tedious and seemed pointless. I wonder if if was just so he could "surprise" kill someone.
And I did like Daario 1.0 in the show. He was hot AND more charismatic.
And Ben: YES! I hated the Davos chapters... but they were a little better on the second read.
Brooklyn wrote: "Anna wrote: "I hated Tyrion's plot in ADWD. He used to be my favorite POV and now I found it torturous to get through his chaptes. It seemed to me that things moved extremely slowly, if at all, and..."You don't want Tyrion with Sansa? I desperately want them together! It will show that Sansa has grown up and matured in a very good way and Tyrion will get the girl! The girl that is the key to everything! The girl who, I think, will WIN the IRON THRONE in the end. I want them together so0o0o0o badly!
Iris wrote: "Brooklyn wrote: "Anna wrote: "I hated Tyrion's plot in ADWD. He used to be my favorite POV and now I found it torturous to get through his chaptes. It seemed to me that things moved extremely slowl..."I don't think Sansa's good enough for Tyrion and never will be. I'm actually hoping Tyrion hooks up with Dany ...another girl wrongly focusing on looks. However with her compassion and interest in knowledge I can see them bonding.
And I admit, I also want Sansa to end up with Sandor.
Anna wrote: "Quentyn"Oh man, I think I hated Quentyns' chapters so much I forgot about him.
Ben wrote: "Anna wrote: "Quentyn"Oh man, I think I hated Quentyns' chapters so much I forgot about him."
Me too, book 5 would have been almost exactly the same without him.
I wonder if Quentyn was in there to meet the author's internal body-count quota. :D
Brooklyn wrote: "I wonder if Quentyn was in there to meet the author's internal body-count quota. :D"Probably; he primarily existed to a) cause problems should Daenerys come to the Martels for aid later b) to let Viserieon and Rhaegal loose (getting burnt to a crisp in the process) and c) to increase the number of dead POV characters—at that point there was only Ned Catelyn (who comes back, albeit no longer as a POV), and Ser Arys Oakheart, who had only a single POV. And for "deaths" after Quentyn, Jon is probably not dead or won't stay dead.
Matthew wrote: "Brooklyn wrote: "I wonder if Quentyn was in there to meet the author's internal body-count quota. :D"Probably; he primarily existed to a) cause problems should Daenerys come to the Martels for ai..."
I agree with that. I was *mostly* joking about the body count. Hence the smiley face. Conflict with Dorne and loosing the dragons was definitely the highlight of his existence, poor lad.
Though I personally hated Quentyn and his sub-plot while reading ADWD, after reading this great analysis, I've come to realize that his story did have a purpose:Martin has said that part of his project in ASOIAF is to portray both sides of war — the glorious stirrings one may feel in the moment, and the bloody and awful aftermath. He excels at presenting awesome, feel-good moments of vengeful badassery — Robb’s crowning, Dany’s “Dracarys” in Astapor — and then undercutting them by showing the sad reality and horrific results of those decisions. With Doran’s exhilarating speech about “fire and blood,” he does it again.
Many readers wonder what the point of Quentyn’s arc is. One common interpretation is that Martin is deconstructing the hero’s journey or the idea of “adventure,” and that is absolutely a major theme to the arc that I will explore. But we should also consider how Quentyn’s story fits into the larger Dornish arc. Considered in that context, Quentyn’s POV is meant shows us what Doran’s cool-sounding desire for vengeance really means and feels like to the son he foists it on. It shows the logical endpoint of a desire for “fire and blood.”
There's more to it, of course. I strongly recommend reading the entire 4-part analysis of the Dorne storyline in AFFC/ADWD on that site. Heck, just read the whole collection of essays - they really give you an entirely different perspective on what was going on between the lines in ADWD.
Brooklyn wrote: "Iris wrote: "Brooklyn wrote: "Anna wrote: "I hated Tyrion's plot in ADWD. He used to be my favorite POV and now I found it torturous to get through his chaptes. It seemed to me that things moved ex..."I also ship SanSan, and admit that I would love to see them together but the Hound is "Dead."
Mitali wrote: "Though I personally hated Quentyn and his sub-plot while reading ADWD, after reading this great analysis, I've come to realize that his story did have a purpose:Martin has said that part of his pr..."
I suppose that makes sense. I like that about George's writting. He doesn't go with the usual clichés. In the case of Quentyn his adventure and the ultimate result of it was nothing like the hero stories and more like how we would expect it to turn out in reality. I'm sure George has something in mind for his plot and the same is probably true with Penny, but that doesn't make it any easier to read thought their parts.
About Tyrion, I don't think he will be getting back together with Sansa, and I certainly hope he doesn't. I think Sansa is no longer going to be the helpless little bird we have seen. She seems to be learning a little about how things work (along with some plotting and scheming) from Little Finger. She might even surprise us and become another player in the GOT? who knows.
Brooklyn wrote: "Mine are: Lady Stoneheart... I didn't care for her previous incarnation and having her come back to make more bad decisions and misjudgments has me rolling my eyes.Daario: He does not in any way ..."
I second the lady Stoneheart thing. I got kind of annoyed by the whole thing with her. But personally I am glad that Tyrion will most likely be in the very end.
Iris wrote: "Brooklyn wrote: "Iris wrote: "Brooklyn wrote: "Anna wrote: "I hated Tyrion's plot in ADWD. He used to be my favorite POV and now I found it torturous to get through his chaptes. It seemed to me tha..."The Hound is only 'mostly dead'–a quote from The Princess Bride, not ASOIAF! Remember there was some strong hinting that a new member of the monastery Brienne went through resembled the Hound. I don't think he is dead.
Ben wrote: "I like Lady Stoneheart. I didn't like Caetlyn, but I liked the "holy shit she's undead" aspect of it. Haven't seen much of her though.Plots I don't care enough about to read chapters about them: ..."
I found the Davos character quite amiable. He is brave, loyal and has a crooked past. What's not to like? Maybe it's cause I am middling-aged that I can relate to him.
Brooklyn wrote: "Mine are: Lady Stoneheart... I didn't care for her previous incarnation and having her come back to make more bad decisions and misjudgments has me rolling my eyes.Daario: He does not in any way ..."
I read a theory on here that Daario and another character are actually the face-changing bloke who grants Arya her wishes and sends her to Braavos. In that light–if true–I think it adds much more interest to Daario.
Ted wrote: "I read a theory on here that Daario and another character are actually the face-changing bloke who grants Arya her wishes and sends her to Braavos. In that light–if true–I think it adds much more interest to Daario."No, Daario is definitely not Jaqen H'ghar. The Alchemist (the mysterious guy in the prologue of AFFC) is Jaqen H'ghar. He kills Pate and takes over his identity.
Ted wrote: "Iris wrote: "Brooklyn wrote: "Iris wrote: "Brooklyn wrote: "Anna wrote: "I hated Tyrion's plot in ADWD. He used to be my favorite POV and now I found it torturous to get through his chaptes. It see..."I don't think he's dead dead either. But "The Hound" is dead. He may take a new identity.
Ted wrote: maybe i liked davos because i'm middle agedI don't think that's it. I'm 35, it's not a lack of maturity. His chapters just bore me. Part of it might be because he has to deal with Stannis all the time, and Stannis is a bit boring himself. I liked Davos more on my re-reads, but still not a fan ultimately.
Davos is an important character and he does push the story but Ben makes a valid point. He's Stannis's man and Stannis is dry. I don't know anyone who is voting for him to win the Iron Throne.
Iris wrote: "Davos is an important character and he does push the story but Ben makes a valid point. He's Stannis's man and Stannis is dry. I don't know anyone who is voting for him to win the Iron Throne."You should check out the ASOIF forums. There are a surprising amount of Stannis fans. Not me. As you said, he's too dry.
I think at this point (without watching the show.. I refuse to contribute anything extra to GRRM until he finishes the freaking books.. and honestly wish he would just give up so someone competent could finish for him) that everything is a subplot. Some bad shit is supposedly coming... and they are all basically ignoring it. The entire series is like a dragged out soap-opera of a guy/girl that is too involved playing Everquest or World of Warcraft or *insert random time-consuming thing* that they don't even notice their Significant Other leaving them.
It was cool in book 1... and I was enjoying it through book 3... and then 14+ years later... only 2 new books have come out and they advanced nothing. At all. The last two books were only subplot that did nothing for the main story. You can basically skip them for the most part. It is sad.
And frankly he is boring now. Oooooooh he kills people?!?!?! lame. None of it was really a shock after Ned. It became the norm. It would be more surprising now if he actually finished the story.. and not everyone ended up completely mutilated or dead. (and half the dead people aren't really dead... OOOOHHHH another shocker??!! not.)
sorry. it's late and I am sick. lol. And I am really tired of GRRM. Used to looooove this series.. and then you read people like sanderson who write 1k+ page books while taking a dump that are of better quality... and you can't help but wonder if maybe GRRM wasn't dicking around with so many side projects.. he might have finished it by now...
Davos. I only like the parts with Melisandre.
And Jon. Ygritte made it cool but now he's boring.
Iris wrote: "Brooklyn wrote: "Anna wrote: "I hated Tyrion's plot in ADWD. He used to be my favorite POV and now I found it torturous to get through his chaptes. It seemed to me that things moved extremely slowl..."Sansa with Tyrion? That's terrible! Sansa deserves love with someone her own age. After all she's been through she needs someone appropriate for her. Let her marry Edric Strorm and be the princess she wants to be and deserves.
Brooklyn wrote: "Iris wrote: "Davos is an important character and he does push the story but Ben makes a valid point. He's Stannis's man and Stannis is dry. I don't know anyone who is voting for him to win the Iron..."The feeling is mutual.
Holly wrote: "Wow, I thought that I was the only one who found the Lady Stoneheart development to be annoying and unnecessary.I, too, wonder at GRRM's tendency to make weddings horrific affairs. Maybe he once..."
I've never worked in any capacity involving weddings... but I still think they're horrific affairs. Perhaps he just finds a need to make them more interesting.
I also don't find Lady Stoneheart particularly interesting. In my opinion, Martin's just adding one more element to the story that he won't be able to resolve in two books, though at this point it looks as if he'll need more than two measly books to wrap things up. We'll see.
Hannah wrote: "Iris wrote: "Brooklyn wrote: "Anna wrote: "I hated Tyrion's plot in ADWD. He used to be my favorite POV and now I found it torturous to get through his chaptes. It seemed to me that things moved ex..."Why does age play a part? Tyrion is capable of love and will love her fiercely if given the chance. He is a gallant loyal hero and Sansa would be lucky to have him, and he her.
Iris wrote: "Tyrion is capable of love and will love her fiercely if given the chance. He is a gallant loyal hero and Sansa would be lucky to have him, and he her. "I agree. I think they would have learned to love each other if their marriage hadn't been forced and in the middle of a war. The circumstances of the marriage pissed me off, but it pissed Tyrion off as well - that says a lot about him. I hope someday Sansa realizes how lucky she was to have to marry Tyrion instead of one of the other Lannisters. She would have been raped on her wedding night if it had been any other Lannister.
Julia wrote: "Iris wrote: "Tyrion is capable of love and will love her fiercely if given the chance. He is a gallant loyal hero and Sansa would be lucky to have him, and he her. "I agree. I think they would h..."
Well, maybe not Jaime either. After all, the only woman who interested him was his sister.
Brooklyn wrote: "Julia wrote: "Iris wrote: "Tyrion is capable of love and will love her fiercely if given the chance. He is a gallant loyal hero and Sansa would be lucky to have him, and he her. "I agree. I thin..."
That is true. I was thinking more about all the stupid cousins. Jaime and Tyrion are the only members of that whole extended family with the balls to disobey their father.
Julia wrote: "Brooklyn wrote: "Julia wrote: "Iris wrote: "Tyrion is capable of love and will love her fiercely if given the chance. He is a gallant loyal hero and Sansa would be lucky to have him, and he her. "..."
True, but that's because Tyrion is just like his father and Jamie is nothing like his father.
Shawn wrote: "I think at this point (without watching the show.. I refuse to contribute anything extra to GRRM until he finishes the freaking books.. and honestly wish he would just give up so someone competent ..."i agree with the not finishing books in time point i mean erickson used to write the next book in MBOTF before one could completely understand the previous book :D
So well said. Books 4 and 5 and pacing travesties. The ironmen and Dorne plots suck majorly.
Can 'food' be considered a subplot? If so, then that's my nominee.
My only problem with Tyrion's POV is his whining. When things *happen*, his plot is perfectly fine.I have similar problems with Dany's story too, actually. So much of it in this book is just her sitting around and arguing with people instead of proactively doing anything. I understand why it's written that way, but by the seven, it's boring to read. At least it ended interestingly enough.
Surprised so many people dislike Lady Stoneheart, though.
Ben wrote: "Ted wrote: maybe i liked davos because i'm middle agedI don't think that's it. I'm 35, it's not a lack of maturity. His chapters just bore me. Part of it might be because he has to deal with Stan..."
Stannis is dry, I agree. Hopefully you'll change your view as we get to see Davos on his own in the next book.
Iris wrote: "Hannah wrote: "Iris wrote: "Brooklyn wrote: "Anna wrote: "I hated Tyrion's plot in ADWD. He used to be my favorite POV and now I found it torturous to get through his chaptes. It seemed to me that ...""Gallant, loyal hero[es]" aren't, generally speaking, noseless little people who put bolts through their father while he's on the john and then flee.
That's the point. Tyrion is the antithesis of a hero figure. He's the antihero. He has bigger fish to fry in this tale than worming his way into Sansa's 'sexy time'.
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International Encyclopedia of Men and Masculinities (other topics)
A Dance with Dragons (other topics)
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The Blackwell Dictionary of Sociology: A User's Guide to Sociological Language (other topics)International Encyclopedia of Men and Masculinities (other topics)
A Dance with Dragons (other topics)
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Allan G. Johnson (other topics)Michael Flood (other topics)
Daario: He does not in any way sound sexy or appealing enough (or at all, in my opinion) to justify Dany losing her head over him. I wish he'd just die or his real motives would come to light already.
Already "ugly" characters getting further disfigured. Tyrion losing his nose and Brienne getting a chunk torn out of her face specifically.
With the last, I suspect it's because GRRM has stated that Tyrion is his favorite so he seems to torture him to make up for not killing him (I suspect Tyrion will be one of those last standing at the end.) I hope so anyway. Book 1 and 2 featured Tyrion being badass, but from book 3 on the poor guy can't catch a break. With Brienne, who knows.