The Dresden Files Read-Along discussion
Open Thread


Yes indeed, it's about to hit the fan big-time. Get your popcorn, there's going to be a heck of a show.

I am more worried about poor Maggie - hiding away while Harry and Eb are eating pancakes - not nice Harry.

I am more worried about poor Maggie - hiding away while Harry and Eb are eating pancakes - not nice Harry."
True about Maggie. Maybe Harry didn't want to expose her to whatever trouble Eb was bringing.
Yes, the alarms were set off, but not the kaboom, of which Harry is well aware. Just a few pages earlier:
Austri nodded approvingly, flipped the folder closed, and put it away. “Please wait,” he said. He hit a button and muttered a nearly silent word, which I knew would disarm about two thousand lethal magical wards between me and the front door. Then he nodded at me and said, “You may enter.”We know Harry can exaggerate, but still. No kaboom for Ebenezar.

I like!

I am more worried about poor Maggie - hiding away while Harry and Eb are eating pancakes - not nice Harry."
Or perhaps Maggie or Bonnie would have let the cat out of the bag about Thomas and Harry wasn't quite ready for that at that moment? Still, poor kid is hiding, dad!

“First time we’ve spoken face‑to‑face since Chichén Itzá.”For that matter, how much, if anything, does Ebenezar know about Bonnie?


I think if I give everyone the benefit of the doubt I wind up thinking that Ebenezar must be extremely upset; I don't remember him being the casual throwing-your-weight-around kind of guy, even if Gedwig did get on his nerves. And you're right, he does need remedial great-grandpa class, but I think that might just support the case that he's really, really upset.

Ah, thank you WoJ:
Anton: Does Ebenezar know Harry and Thomas are siblings?The "next book" referred to is Peace Talks. So. Eb is "kind of in denial." Yep.
Jim: Sort of, he’s kind of in denial about it. We’ll get to see some of that in the next book.

Ah, thank you WoJ:Anton: Does Ebenezar know Harry and Thomas are siblings?
Jim: Sort of, he’s kind of in d..."
It also occured to me that Eb may not know that Maggie is present in Harry's life. Even though they may have 'spoken' since Chichen Itza -just not face to face- doesn't mean that Harry has told Eb that he has custody of Maggie, since Harry asked Murphy to hide her, and Eb may not even know of Bonnie's existance. Harry doesn't seem to be very forthcoming with Eb these days. Full trust not restored though they have reached a sort of truce?

Sure looks that way.
PS: Minor point, but Forthill hid Maggie. Harry asked Murphy to
"Please take her to Father Forthill, when we get b-back," I said. "T-tell him that she needs to disappear. The safest place he has. That I . . ." My voice failed. I took deep breaths and and said, "And I don't need to know where. T-tell him that for me."Although I think you have a good argument that Murphy participated.

1. Ebenezar did attend that dinner with his daughter when she was with Wraith. So math would suggest that he knows Thomas might be his grandson. Having said that he does not know that harry knows about Thomas or that Thomas knows about Harry so there is every reason for him to act cold about it when Harry is around.
2. Ebenezar hasn't really spoken to harry since Mexico and last he heard Harry was going to send Maggie away. So there is no reason for him to thnk that Maggie is around for him to ask about. And being a moderately sympathetic person he might not want to bring it up with Harry so as not to upset him.
3. Ebenezar has demonstrated on multiple occasions that he is willing to do the "expedeant" thing when necessary and thus were I harry I wouldn't want to show off my daughter to him either until I had a sure fire way to shield her from Expediance.
4. Yeah, no way in hell would I allow any possibility of any member of the white council to find out about Bonia. That would be epically bad.
5. Releasing Darth Vader from the control of the White Council would be the mother of all bad ideas for them. His Membership must be the only thing they conceive of as a reason why he doesn't go full Psycho Winter Knight.
Lastly, I agree that Harry is going to have to grovel at the feet of his child for making her hide in fear while he and his grandpa ate her pancakes.

Sure looks that way.
PS: Minor point, but Forthill hid Maggie. Harry asked Murphy to"Please take her to Father ..."
Since Maggie ended up with the Carpenters and Murphy was her legal guardian, according to the minimal paperwork Harry left behind, I'm sure she both knew where Maggie was and checked in from time to time, even if she also kept her distance for Maggie's protection. She'd have felt it her responsibility to Harry to make sure Maggie was as okay as she could make her.

Well, when you put it like that, yeah. :-) I thought I was interpreting "hid" narrowly, as in "chose where to park her." There's paperwork? How did I miss that?!?! Can you give an approximate citation? Thanks!

1. Ebenezar did attend that dinner with his daughter when she was with Wraith. So math would suggest that he knows Thom..."
That would explain why Eb acts like Thomas is running some kind of game on Harry that Our Hero is too dense to figure out himself. Eb thinks he knows something important that Harry doesn't.

Well, when you put it like that, yeah. :-) I thought I was interpreting "hid"..."
Well, though I'm sure all the other things are true about Murphy visiting and knowing where the kid was, she is not in fact Maggie's guardian.
I think the passage that we are talking about here is the part just before they go to mexico when harry tells Murphy where to find his will and that she is authorized to access his safety deposit box and that she is designated as the executor of his will. Harry never had a chance to designate a guardian for Maggie, or anything else from a legal sense. He does, in that same conversation, tell her where to take Maggie after the dust has settled.

Yes. Since the whole book takes place over a couple of days (anyone have a timeline?) I didn't think there was time to go to Harry's lawyer and get new papers drawn up to handle things, for a child that Harry wasn't completely sure was really his until Uriel told him, just hours before they went to Mexico.

Yes. Since the whole book takes place over a couple of days (anyone have a timeline..."
Somebody with more legal acumen than I for the state of IL may have to correct my limited understanding but here's why I think Murphy is Maggie's guardian ad litem: Murphy is clearly designated executor of Harry's estate. Once Maggie is established as his child -which the church would have done, probably through finding her birth certificate in whatever country she was born in - Murphy would automatically be considered her guardian even if not designated directly.
Since I had a sibling who was born on foreign soil, I know that -back then at least- a birth certificate that stated that both parents were citizens of the US goes a long way toward having the child become a 'naturalized' citizen. Said child can't run for President but is in all other respects a US citizen. Maggie would need that to stay on the right side of INS and ICE. Since it's mostly just paperwork I'm sure that the good Father, Murphy and the Carpenters woiuld have taken care of that ASAP.
Since Harry is presumed deceased Murphy and Thomas would probably have been needed to testify that Harry claimed paternity anyway.

It's hinted at briefly in canon when Harry has a vision on Demonreach that a certain amount of precognition comes with a wizards 'maturity'. According to the timeline Maggie LeFay is over 100 when she has Thomas and Harry. Surely that's 'mature' by wizard standards?

"His face was long, his brows still dark and full. He had a double scar on his left eyebrow and cheek, two long lines that went straight down, a lot like mine, only deeper and thicker and all the way to his jawline, and they were much softer with long years of healing. Maybe he hadn’t been as good at flinching as I was, because he’d lost the eye beneath the scar. One of his eyes was nearly black, it was so dark."
And then, a couple of pages later Rashid says:
“I know precisely how it feels to be where you are.” ... “Precisely."
I feel like this is a real wink-wink from JB.
Harry-as-Rashid would also explain who fixes Little Chicago in Proven Guilty: Harry himself. We already know that Rashid was messing around with time during that book. This would also explain why Rashid always seems to be limited in what he "can" do.
This would make a few scenes really hilarious. Like when they first meet in Summer Knight and he laughs at Harry in the tree, then gives him ointment that works but also stinks. Or when he flies away on a freaking magic carpet at the Outer Gates.

Aftermath comes 90mins after Dresden’s shooting.
GHOST STORY in the second week of May.
Bombshells at the beginning of September.
COLD DAYS on Halloween Night, with Harry waking 11-weeks earlier in Mab’s bed.
So… Chichin Itza to the Battle at Demonreach is just under one year.
Cold Case is one week later.
A year passes and Maggie turns 10.
SKIN GAME is the next late-February.
PEACE TALKS is in July
BATTLE GROUND is probably right after.
Christmas Eve is the end of the same year.
Admittedly I’m doing this off the top of my head. Still. The timeline for later few books is actually pretty solid.

Aftermath comes 90mins after Dresden’s shooting.
GHOST STORY in the second week of May.
Bombshells at the beginning of September.
COLD DA..."
Darn close. The Series Timeline https://www.jim-butcher.com/timeline#sf puts Changes in October but otherwise the top of your head seems pretty good.

From https://www.illinoislegalaid.org/lega...
"A Guardian Ad Litem (GAL) is a volunteer attorney appointed by the court in a case that involves the interest of a child. Some judges assign a GAL to nearly every case; others only do so at the request of one of the parties to the case. A GAL is often called a “Child Representative” and judges usually respect the authority of a GAL and their understanding of the child’s best interest. Many judges have a long-standing relationship with specific GALs and trust their judgment."
Elsewhere on the site (https://www.illinoislegalaid.org/lega...) they discuss how to become the guardian of a minor child; it looks like if it's not set up in advance by the parents then the courts have to be involved. There doesn't seem to be an automatic guardianship for the executor.
Not saying that Murphy couldn't be Maggie's legal guardian after appropriate legal wrangling that we haven't seen in the books; that's just not the same thing as a GAL, at least not in IL.
PS: I am not an attorney, and even if I were, I am not your attorney, and I am not offering legal advice to anyone. Jeez I hate disclaimers.

I wonder how significant it is that Harry was born on that time - does he get to be able to have the influences of the date in a more permanent basis?
Regarding the discussion about the legalities of Maggie -
1) there is no birth certificate acknoledging Harry - those things can be traced pretty easily. I'm also not sure about Susan's nationality, and can imagine some racist immigration officials being suspicious - especially since Maggie didn't cross the border in a legal way.
2) Murphy or Forthill ended up giving Maggie to the Charpenters - whatever the temporary legal status (which I doubt she had), now Michael and Charity are supposed to be the legal guardians. How does one go about formally adopting a kid without certificates? I hope there are some people checking rings of child abductions in the USA...
I doubt Murphy has any legal standing, and the Charpenters may have forged papers, I seriously doubt they have anything legitimate - simply because whatever arrangements Susan made, I don't think they passed on to Harry's allies. On the other hand - the fellowship did have young members that survived the purge, but why would Susan trust any of those to handle sensitive papers like those?
No - most likely Maggie is in the states illegally, and with forged papers.

From https://www.illinoislegalaid.org/lega......"
First, let me just say how impressed I am at the level of research that just went in to this thread. Yall rock more than a little bit.
Having said that,
1. Susan gave her child away and spent 8 years not telling the man she loved about her all for the sake of keeping the world from finding out that that child was in any way associated with either her or Harry. I'd be willing to go out on a limb and say that IF there is a birth certificate neither her name nor Harry's have is anywhere on it.
2. The entire point of Murphy taking Maggie to Fortill was to further obfuscate Maggie from the supernatural community. So I'm guessing that the Carpenters simply petitioned the court for adoption or fosterage (I forget which they did or if it says which anywhere in the books) of an orphan identified by the church in Mexico, with no prior paper trail. This would have the dual merit of hiding her origin and lacking the necessity for complex family court proceedings as in this case the church would be able to act as guardian pro tem while the paperwork went through.
And Lastly, as all parties are trying to keep a low profile as it pertains to Maggie, Karen even showing up on any piece of paperwork regarding her would bring a level of scrutiny to the transaction that would be cosmically bad. What possible reason would a recently retired/disgraced police officer have for trying to get guardianship of an unknown orphan girl. especially while CPD, Marcone, The White Court, and the White Council are paying attention after a major global event that most of them know she was involved in.

From https://www.illinoislegalaid.org/lega......"
Thanks for the clarification. I was definitely not on the right path with the guardianship with Murphy. And thanks to all those who have researched further.
Now, how does Harry regain custody of his daughter? Anybody? Because they are together by the first chapter of Peace Talks. -Couldn't resist. It's on the official site.-

Unless that Illinois legal aid website is missing a few pieces, it looks like once the Carpenters have been declared plenary guardians of Maggie, and it seems like they must have been, given that she's enrolled in an elementary school from their address and Mouse has been made legal as a service dog (so doctors are involved), then they and Harry can go to court to try to get the plenary guardianship transferred to Harry. Good luck with that, unless Harry feels like owing Marcone a favor.
They can also go to court to try to get Harry declared her biological parent (would Harry provide a DNA sample, and if he won't, wouldn't that work against him in court?) and work from there.
Peace Talks takes place in July, and Maggie is out of school for the summer, so it's probably easy for the Carpenters to let her go stay with her Dad while he's not "working". Looks like she'll be back at the fort pretty soon.

But speaking from the perspective of realistic motivations, why would he. He obviously loves his child and wants the best for her. And based on the way his life works between White Council, Winter Knight, Warden of Demon reach, etc. The best thing for her is to remain with the Carpenters under the unbrella of a host of guardian angels and surrounded by a host of loving positive reinforcement on a daily baisis. and take every spare moment he can to spend time with her and reassure her that his love is a rock she can depend upon.
Also, I don't think that I've seen anything yet to indicate that Marcone knows about that connection yet. So maybe we'll be keeping that on the down low for as long as possible.
In fact, let's play a game of "Who Knows About Maggie". We know that the changes crew knows. So Thomas, Murphy, Liea, Mab, Sonja, Molly, Ebenezer, and Vaderone. There's the Red Court (OOPS, never mind). Thomas's big sister as she needed to be informed why she was protecting Maggie. Fortill, Michael, and Charity obviously, maybe not the kids. And possibly whoever else was in the Gray Council assult squad. Am I missing anyone? Oh yeah, and the dark elves. Though Honor would dictate that they probably won't reveal anything.

"His face was long, his brows still..."
Add to that....how Rashid couldn't step foot on Demonreach....as he gave the spirit it's limp.


Also, I have been reading commentaries here about the books being created from Harry’s notes, a running memoir of his life. In Cold Days we read more snippets to support that idea. In the last chapter when Harry asks Mab if it was difficult to kill her daughter, he says that he saw something in her for only a brief period and would never see again. Regardless of the books being written from his notes via Ivy or his own memories later in life, I do believe these are his memoirs. I would certainly like to see Garry get to enjoy some period of happiness in his life, get to see his children grow to adulthood - but then, where is the story in that?


"His face was long,..."
A) Harry has described Rashid as appearing middle eastern in skin tone and appearance and a bit taller than himself -could have been a veil to disguise himself. Harry's could have gotten better over time.-
B) If Rashid is Harry, would Demonreach have had some kind of reaction to a duplicate Harry that would have given the game away?

It's going to be a bumpy ride.

Regarding the discussion - never tell other people how to raise their children (unless it's serious abuse) - it is never appreciated. If someone is insecure, they will ask, don't vollunteer tips - people resent it.
That aside - i'm not sure how much control Eb had on what happened after Harry's dad died - Morgan wanted to take him but someone disappeared him for Justine to find - Eb wouldn't do it like that - he didn't like Justin...
Sending Margaret away until she manifested - Harry tried to do that too after chichen itze - he got talked around to get involved about 2 years after that. I don't think he can throw stones like that. Considering Eb was an active Blackstaff at the time, he would have had the same instinct of isolation, and no Molly and Murphy to talk sense to him.
All in all - what Harry said was not fair.
Still, Eb should have been more tactfull himself...

Besides, there's some of this that is probably set up for YA series, the compromise Harry is going to choose by sending Maggie to boarding school.


"His face was long,..."
Word of Jim states that the limp was caused by the glacier that carved the lake or something like that.

Regarding the discussion - never tell other people how to raise their children (unless it's serious abuse) - it is n..."
To be fair to the whole throwing stones thing. Every time Harry has talked about Maggie with others in previous books his discomfort has centered around Him personally being a danger or him being an icon of fear for her. I.e. he initially wanted her sent to frotill because he thought becoming the winter knight was going to turn him into a monster. Then, after he came back in cold days he was afraid that she would remember him killing her mother and thus terrify her. So no one really had to talk him into wanting to take her, they had to convince him that he wouldn't personally hurt her if he showed up.
Now, of course, all that fear was also tied up with his personal issues with being a fauther. but, that's not atypical for any new parent.

Regarding the discussion - never tell other people how to raise their children (unless it's serious a..."
Ebenezer was blackstaff, Margaret's mother was dead, and he was involved in the french-indian war and white council politics - so he sent his daughter away until she showed signs of having magic - when she was at about puberty probably.
Harry was just signing on to be Winter Knight (even without remembering his suicide attempt) - he was sure he's going to become a monster, and also the thing with Susan's death was weighing on him. Took him 2 years and good friends to talk him into relaxing enough to be in contact with his Maggie - same thing.
Harry really doesn't have the high ground in this arguement - he was trying to be diplomatic about it, but he was going the wrong way about it. He should have confided in Ebenezer about his fears and worries - maybe then Eb would have realised they are the same.
Men... talking about your feelings helps you feel better - you should try to do it more often.

There was a very soft sound from the back of the apartment and the old man came to his feet with the speed of an alley cat. Before he’d even gotten there, he’d hissed a word, and his staff flew across the room and into his hand.Does Ebenezar seem even grumpier and jumpier than usual? I know there's a lot on his mind, but he was ready to start blasting, and he's taking a very accusatory tone. Once they're out in the courtyard, he could have made his concerns clear without goading Harry into a loud argument. Maybe I'm the paranoid one here, but this feels like more than just two stubborn men.
“Whoa, whoa, whoa,” I said, rising, my hands spread. “Would you relax, please?”
“Who is that?” he demanded. He shot me a hard look. “Who?”




Going Faustian sounds like an option for Murphy at this point - she does have options in that regard... poor Murph, long recoveries suck.
I don't know why Harry thinks Marcone owns Rudolph - last time we saw him, the Red Court was pulling his strings. Maybe the White Court is doing it now, if not the Fomor. Does IA investigates ex cops? That sounds wrong - they arent in the police anymore.
Where did those pics come from? I thought Harry paid Marcone over the heist, so no motive to cooperate...
As usual, 5 chapters, 5 different problems, or as Harry likes to say - an opportunity...

Seriously, I’d have bet money on that one years ago! And while I may be right about RedCap’s RedPatch, as of CH5, Harry and Murphy not having gotten laid yet seems a nonstarter. C'est la vie
For example: Marcone decides not to send Sigrun into that alleyway during DEAD BEAT… leading directly to Harry’s death at the hands of the Cap.
(view spoiler)[Michael going first on the helicopter, #10. Accepting the coin from Nick, #5? “God forgive me” in bk#3. Blasting Victor Sells with black magic, #1.. And more. Probably more… (hide spoiler)]
Anyway. Cover art for the books always has him wearing a hat—‘cos he’s a P.I.—but here the thing… I bet anything the Evil-Dresden in Mirror, Mirror wears a fedora! (‘cos it’s so close by on the Central Finite Curve, and why the artist’s been getting it wrong.) Moreover, it’ll be the only novel out of twenty-five where Harry’s not wearing a hat on the cover!!
---
Addendum: ‘cos it’ll be a literal black hat. Urg! Late to my own dammed punchline =P