The Obscure Reading Group discussion
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Jude the Obscure Archives
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Feb. 7th-14th Discussion of "Part First: At Marygreen" and "Part Second: At Christminster."
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Yes, I do like Sue, so far. But as I said in my previous post, I have to admire Aunt Drusilla. An unmarried woman who ran her own business and supported herself, then took in and supported a nephew that she could barely afford; she gets points in my book. Arabella was just what everyone warned Jude she was, a low class fortune hunter.
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She also serves as foreshadowing device (Cassandra-like, admittedly, but still).
And yes, Diane. She's a crusty old sort, and I am well familiar with that type of old-school curmudgeonette, especially in more rural areas of Maine.
Fergus, can you find no positive for poor old Arabella? None? Is she completely a stock caricature of female evil tempting poor mankind?
I suspect we will revisit her next week, but mum's the word right now.
I am identifying with Jude on a scholarly aspirational level, but less so in love life. Much of his Arabella experience can be put down to juvenile naivety, this is not the case with Sue.It seems his women must either be entirely venerated or denigrated. There is not much space between for Jude.
At the moment I read Sue’s presence as a destructive force for Jude, but Hardy has painted her well - she is more than a stock femme fatale and is believable in her own world, sans Jude.
His meeting with Sue comes with explicit warning, which he ignores. The linking of Sue with the tale of Oedipus, as mentioned above, is interesting. In Part II we see
He had lately felt that he could not quite satisfy himself in his Greek - in the Greek of the dramatists particularly
This is a nod toward Jude’s own impending tragedy, of which Oedipus-like elements will likely play a part. He cannot bear the Greek tragedians because he is in his own tragedy.
Sorry, Ken, the thumbs up was for Drusilla... and yes, Arabella has quite a few fine points. A warm, loving family - a BIG plus for me. And she’s not a gold-digger - but she really digs Jude. That’s all good stuff. And Jude REALLY woulda had a steep learning curve with her or without her anyway!And one thing’s for sure. She’s a warm-hearted woman deep down. I think Hardy’s attitude toward her is not PROGRESSIVE, though, because like so many Victorians he’s bound by duty, not love. So I guess while Jude’s traditional, Arabella in believing in the power of love alone is progressive!
John - wonderful linkage there between Sue and Oedipus. But bad-news for us starry-eyed romantics!
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Drusilla though, I agree with Diane. Drusilla may be cold hearted but she comes through for him, and at least tries to give good advice. And most important, she tells the truth.
I get the feeling Hardy's viewpoint is you can't trust emotion.
I have to admire the way Hardy got Arabella out of Jude's way. Sending her to Australia with her family essentially gave Jude a chance to reconnect with his dreams by totally removing her. Although I do suspect she will re-enter the scene at a later date.
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At first I wondered if the taboo against that did not exist in Victorian society. Nowadays, we'd say, "Ew."
(I'm not sure where the stigma stops... second cousin? third? fifth twice removed?)
In the south, cousin to cousin was frowned upon, but second cousins were OK, if for nothing else to keep large plantations and land holdings in the same family. Now, of course, we say eww to all of it.
I have my thought about Sue. I can’t say now, because it is in the next segments that she shines.
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"No, Mr. Phillotson, I am not---altogether! I hate to be what is called a clever girl---there are too many of that sort now!" answered Sue sensitively. "I only meant---I don't know what I meant---except that it was what you don't understand!"
"I know your meaning," said Jude ardently (although he did not). "And I think you are quite right."
"That's a good Jude---I know you believe in me!"
This exchange was interesting on a few counts.
1.) Sue resents being called "clever" because she apparently considers it a pejorative. Why? And why does she judge so many of her fellow females to be "clever"?
2.) Is it me, or is Hardy especially heavy-handed with exclamation points when Sue speaks? Intentional, or oversight? It doesn't come across as flattering.
3.) Notice that both Phillotson and Jude come across as clueless compared to Sue. The authorial voice in parentheses says as much about Jude, and Sue says as much about Phillotson. (This scene is the debate over a model of Jerusalem the school children have seen.)
I think it is intentional, given his marriage record.I am having a hard time slowing this book down. It is getting very interesting. I am not commenting , because I don’ t want to give anything away.
That last quote, "That's a good Jude, I know you believe in me". That comes across as condescending to me, as though she's speaking to a pet.
In my understanding, the word “clever” was used as a pronouncedly pejorative word in the late 19th century by more “traditional” and ethically-minded folks towards the the new, amoral “art-for-art’s-sake” group of writers like Wilde: so to me, it is indicative of Sue’s moral fibre!
Thought on Sue’s wanting to rebuild Jerusalem. Jerusalem has often been a synonym for England, notably in William Blake’s poem “and did those feet in ancient time”.Sue’s wanting to rebuild the Jerusalem model doubles, in part, with tendencies in her character
The closing four lines of Blake:
“I will not cease from Mental Flight,
Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand:
Till we have built Jerusalem,
In England’s green and pleasant land”
Sue does not like the Jerusalem she sees, and believes it to be an inadequate representation.
Wonderful thought, John! You make me look forward with anticipation to Sue’s character development in the next reading session!
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Here's a link from YouTube: "JERUSALEM" by E, L, & P.
Back in 2016, I even connected it to the movie Chariots of Fire and wrote a blog post for teachers about it.
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I’m truly enjoying your poetry, Ken. I read one or two to my husband at breakfast. Great way to start the day. He’s also a retired English teacher!
Sandra, I think if poetry came back in vogue, Ken would be a star! His stuff is THAT good...
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And Sandra, there's something about music that validates poetry to the young. They don't necessarily make the connection between the two, even though it seems obvious, maybe because, in their minds, their teachers ruin poetry for them but not music, which is seldom allowed through the school door, anyhow, spare in music class slash band.
I can remember my 8th grade English teacher playing in its entirety the rock musical Jesus Christ Superstar. Though it wasn't assigned (or maybe because), I wound up memorizing the damn thing, start to finish, and can still reel off extended parts of it at random moments.
Talking of music reminds me that it is let through the door in THIS book, but alas, that is for next week's discussion, which will be opened in two days on Hallmark Day (a.k.a. "Valentine's Day" in some parts).
Fergus wrote: "Sorry, Ken, the thumbs up was for Drusilla... and yes, Arabella has quite a few fine points. A warm, loving family - a BIG plus for me. And she’s not a gold-digger - but she really digs Jude. That’..."It seems that Jude's not focused on Arabella as much as he is on himself, established early on -- he wants somewhere, someone, something different. His relationship with her seemed summed up by their shared task of draining the hog. I took this whole scene to reflect how he cannot satisfy himself with such work. His relationship with Arabella has become far too confining and "ugly" to him. That hog is the opposite of the rooks who could fly away at the beginning of the section. His dreams of flying away have resulted in confining reality, yet he won't let go of those dreams.
Though I do not dislike Arabella, she and Jude just don't seem to really "fit" as I discovered their relationship while I was reading. They both have their plans and goals, yet they are not passionate about each other.
Jan wrote: "Fergus wrote: "Sorry, Ken, the thumbs up was for Drusilla... and yes, Arabella has quite a few fine points. A warm, loving family - a BIG plus for me. And she’s not a gold-digger - but she really d..."Okay. . . .back to student compositions for me. I look forward to more conversation tomorrow after I make a major dent in my grading!
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Jan, I love your contrast of the hogs and the rooks, and how they pertain to what is happening to Jude!
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Jude purposely ignores her expertise and plunges the knife deep into the throat to ends its misery.
The description, to my mind, was some of the most powerful in Parts 1 and 2, and boy did it work wonders not only as description but as characterization delineating the differences between man and wife:
The blood flowed out in a torrent instead of in the trickling stream she had desired. The dying animal's cry assumed its third and final tone, the shriek of agony; his glazing eyes riveting themselves on Arabella with the eloquently keen reproach of a creature recognizing at last the treachery of those who had seemed his only friends.
'Make un stop that!' said Arabella. 'Such a noise will bring somebody or other up here, and I don't want people to know we are doing it ourselves,' Picking up the knife for the ground whereon Jude had flung it, she slipped it into the gash , and slit the windpipe. The pig was instantly silent, his dying breath coming through the hole.
'That's better,' she said.
'It's a hateful business!' said he.
'Pigs must be killed.'
The animal heaved in a final convulsion, and, despite the rope, kicked out with all his last strength. A tablespoonful of black clot came forth, the trickling of red blood having ceased for some seconds.
'That's it; now he'll go,' said she. 'Artful creatures---they always keep back a drop like that as long as they can!'
At which point Jude knocks over the pail of blood making a red mess of the no-longer-innocent-looking snow.
Arabella comes to life by bringing this pig to life as she helps kill it. Really. The fact that it stares reproachfully at HER. The fact that she yells for Jude to "make the pig stop" (like it was a vengeful human), and finally the fact that she comments on how pigs "always do that," referring to that final kick, that final clot of black blood popping out as the pig's last payback. (And I'm sure pigs would consider this assertion a gross generalization, as each pig probably has its own creative means of pre-bacon payback!)
Bottom line? Sorry, Jude, but pig and wife (and author!) steal the show here!
Jan wrote: "That hog is the opposite of the rooks who could fly away at the beginning of the section. His dreams of flying away have resulted in confining reality, yet he won't let go of those dreams."Hi Jan, like Kathleen, I love your observation here. The hog has replaced the rook and symbolically charted the direction in which Jude's life has panned out. Now he is mired in swine swirl as opposed to whatever little autonomy he had to feed the rooks.
That pig slaughtering episode, as Ken pointed out, stole the show. This was for me a difficult passage to read. But it powerfully underlined how dastardly incompatible Jude and Arabella are.
Hi all, I am gaining lots of precious insight from the discussion here. Thank you so much! I wish I have more time to chip in.At the conclusion of Part 2, it dawned on me that Jude is perhaps his own worst enemy. He has too many scruples which sometimes hinder him from acting as he ought. He is drawn to Sue but restrained himself from getting to know her. He postpones meeting his former teacher, Phillotson, because he thinks he should spruce himself up a bit more first.
Jude waits for things to happen. And the world comes knocking on his door (literally). Arabella flings the pig's offal at him to get his attention; Sue comes to visit him at his workplace. The curate points a way for him to enter the church as a licentiate. He simply goes on waiting and waiting, it seems, to be good enough, and to be deserving of the things he desires. That said, the one time he decides to act - write to the colleges to seek entry, he is sorely rejected and humiliated. No reward for trying as if Fate has decided his future. I don't blame him. Poor Jude!
Arabella seizes life with both arms and with gusto. At last there is no duplicity about her character, she has a zest for life and wrenches it from whoever is in her path. Unlike Sue , who has been mired in conventionality for the moment.
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The comment that Jude waits and waits made me think of Hamlet. Too much thinking causes inaction, thereby becoming a fatal flaw.
Sandra wrote: "I cannot imagine that Hardy intended us to see much to defend in Arabella’s character.... The comment that Jude waits and waits made me think of Hamlet. Too much thinking causes inaction, thereby becoming a fatal flaw. ."Hi Sandra, I dislike Arabella, too. You read my mind. I was thinking of Hamlet when I reflected on Jude being a passive person (non-doer) to whom things happen. You're spot on that his inaction is a fatal flaw. This is becoming more and more apparent as the story progresses.
Carol wrote: "Arabella seizes life with both arms and with gusto. At last there is no duplicity about her character, she has a zest for life and wrenches it from whoever is in her path. Unlike Sue , who has been..."Hello, All,
Arabella certainly takes action, and she's oh, so bold and strong. Were strong women frowned upon overall in 1894? As this was originally a serialized work, could the developing characters and scenes serve as a dialogue with the community?
Yes, I'm cheering on Jude's quest and wish more action on his part. Still, I'm neutral about Arabella while reflecting on these first sections. I remain intrigued by the strong character depicted so dramatically early on.
I'm enjoying all these comments! I'm winding my way through the threads little by little.
My Best,
Jan
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Pass the Danish while I chew on that one. I surely like your points about Jude being reactive instead of proactive. Is this true of many dreamers, who seem more proficient at wu wei than anything practical?
I'm with Laysee in her comment that Jude is his own worst enemy. He's a sensitive dreamer who never accomplishes anything, and I'm losing patience with him already. I do believe the pig killing scene was meant by Hardy to foreshadow what was coming. Any thoughts on Jude's choice of stonecutting as a trade, or was that just another thing he fell into?
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And I love Laysee's analysis of Jude's inaction. "That said, the one time he decides to act - write to the colleges to seek entry, he is sorely rejected and humiliated." I know from my own experience that It's a hard lesson for the introvert/naturally hesitant to learn--that you must keep acting--the only way outcomes will ever balance out.
And my only thought on Diane's question about stonecutting is I recall reading Hardy's father was a stone mason. I'm sure we can play with some metaphors there though!
Do we have a hung jury on Arabella’s verdict? I have to go with Carol and Jan...
I like Arabella’s honesty in her feelings. I know she tricked Jude into marrying her, and wasn’t truthful about her life in the big city, but she is what she is.
Spot on, Diane! Bleed that pig slowly, or you'll spoil the meat. Yeah, Jude wandered into his trade, but Hardy chose well. With his stonemason father and early work as an architect, he knew buildings, cathedrals and colleges, and those common obscure people who made them and maintained them. Hardy had a chip on his shoulder about his tradesman origin and a beef with the Church. I like the way he blends the institution with the buildings. And, then focuses on their repair or lack of it.
Ken wrote: "Yes, Arabella's out of the way, opening the door for... a cousin/cousin romance?At first I wondered if the taboo against that did not exist in Victorian society. Nowadays, we'd say, "Ew."
(I'm n..."
I take this more as a "kinship" of characters rather than the exact family, but that second part plays a large part in the story. Jude and Sue are both characters belonging to another time -- I believe indicated in their discomfort with where they are physically. They are kindred spirits in that sense. Maybe they reflect Hardy's criticism of his Victorian society?
In the story, however, there are so many references to the family itself. Eek. . . to avoid spoilers, there are so many references to their background, history, heritage. All of those "sacred" and traditional aspects of the foundation of society are referenced over and again.
Both of these characters fail miserably in their relationships, perhaps ANY choice they would have made would have been equally disastrous.
John wrote: "Thought on Sue’s wanting to rebuild Jerusalem. Jerusalem has often been a synonym for England, notably in William Blake’s poem “and did those feet in ancient time”.Sue’s wanting to rebuild the Je..."
Ah, I'm going to cheer Sue on for this one. . . . .
If Jerusalem represents a tie to religion, tradition, and British society, it would make sense that she would challenge its foundations. She wants change, wants her own way, or perhaps wants a break from convention. Even if she makes mistakes (and she does make many of them), she is making her own way.
Sandra wrote: "I cannot imagine that Hardy intended us to see much to defend in Arabella’s character. It’s interesting that some of you like her, or at least admire her. Personally, I hope I am not betraying woma..."No, you're not betraying womankind.
I always marvel at how fictional characters (nothing more than ink on paper or shadows on electronic pads) become real to us readers.
Again, I like to imagine the discussions which occurred in the 19th Century. Who defended the characters' choices? Who disliked them? What did these emotional reactions reveal about the readers?
Sandra wrote: "I cannot imagine that Hardy intended us to see much to defend in Arabella’s character. It’s interesting that some of you like her, or at least admire her. Personally, I hope I am not betraying woma..."I agree that he loses his perspective on life. How many times is he lost in "preoccupation" or personal brooding? He also denies his own personal wants over and again, and he accepts his fate without any fight. I hate seeing him release his own wants and decisions over and again, and I hope to see him build at the end.
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But I’ve been spoiled by my wife. She’s like Sue: strongly independent, intelligent and loving. And that kind of lightning never strikes twice!
So, yes, Hardy’s progressive. And Sue’s a NEW type of woman. And I think we ALL love her... SO FAR!