Does it bother anyone else that almost every romance has a playboy, man-whore hero?

[Belle]

Not mine! There are two guys interested in romance but neither are a man-whore playboy. (Sorry if I shouldn't mention my own book but I consciously stayed away from those stereotypes.)

[Belle]

One is definitely more likable than the other one, but he has other things going for him. People keep sending me ways to kill him off, though. :) If I see a book with a bodice ripper cover I immediately don't want to read it. I am probably missing some good books.

[willaful]

Maybe you need to diversify your romance reading? The man-whore is a real feature of certain subgenres, like New Adult, but not as prominent elsewhere. You'll find many honorable heroes in historical romance, especially the more recent titles. Small town contemporaries also tend to have less man-whorishness. :-)

[Belle]

I don't mind sex but I am being prejudiced because those covers seem to indicate those stereotypical roles being played out and an obvious storyline. I like being surprised.

[Matthew]

What kind of woman do you want the heroine to be?

Do you want someone chaste, experienced, or promiscuous? I ask that because that would have an effect on the type of hero that would be compatible.

I agree that STD's are a major issue. Unwanted pregnancy another.

As far as the man being weak for having multiple partners, I respectfully disagree. It's not an easy task to be a successful womanizer. Most men envy those who have the natural charm or whatever to pull it off. The average guy can't just walk into a nightclub and come out with someone to satisfy his urges.

As far as objectification of women, I'm not sure I understand that fully. Men certainly don't mind being objectified. They would find it flattering.

[Matthew]

Erika wrote: "willaful wrote: "Maybe you need to diversify your romance reading? The man-whore is a real feature of certain subgenres, like New Adult, but not as prominent elsewhere. You'll find many honorable h..."


May I suggest the Sorrows of Young Werther by Goethe, where the protagonist is totally enthralled by the one woman in his life.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sorr...

[Matthew]

Erika wrote:
By the way, I don't think ALL men like being objectified. Of course, I could be wrong. Perhaps we should do a poll! :-)


Agreed. Individual preferences vary.
Surveys are always fun.

[Matthew]

Interesting articles. I'll have to look at them more closely when I get a chance. But why cant you have both? i.e. admiring the the appearance (body, attire, demeanor, expressions) as well as the intellect and paying attention the the emotions involved in the interaction.

[Matthew]

Erika wrote: "I forgot to respond to your comments about weakness. I haven't fully thought through all of the aspects of my comments in regard to this, BUT, I can tell you this: many many women have emotional ..."

Something else to think about: not all womanizers have the intention of causing emotional harm. There are both evil and good womanizers. The Don Juan type only want to notch up as many conquests as he can but cares nothing about the women. The Casanova type actually does care about them. He may not be monogamous, but he loves and respects all of his women.

http://ivebeenreadinglately.blogspot....

We tend to hear more about the Don Juan (evil type), since he can be boisterous and braggadocious, but we don't hear much about the Casanova (good type), perhaps because the Casanova is discrete. He values his own privacy and he respects the privacy of his women. He may be seducer, but he is honest about his intentions.

[Carol]

willaful wrote: "You'll find many honorable heroes in historical romance, especially the more recent titles. Small town contemporaries also tend to have less man-whorishness. :-) "

willaful is correct. I write the gamut from erotic romance to small town contemporaries. Even if my hero has had a reputation, it's in the past. He's matured emotionally and the easy women don't tempt him like they once did. He's looking for something more satisfying and lasting.

Erika, thanks for the link re:how one-night stands affect women differently than men. I needed this for research!

[Matthew]

Erica, I understand how you feel about that, and I'm certainly not condoning one night stands as a modus operandi. However if both individuals feel the same way and they understand that there is no long term commitment, what's the harm?
Again there are individual differences among women, and I believe it is from upbringing more so than biology.It is somewhat perplexing that these differences between men and women still exist in this day and age.
I believe that the called "sexual revolution" made people more monogamous in terms of dating. In the old days it was fairly common for people to date more than one person, since sex was not necessarily an essential component of dating, so they didn't feel that commitments were necessary.

[Matthew]

Don't worry about sounding argumentative, it's only a discussion.

How do you feel about those women who are ok with casual sex?

Back in the old days they were called nymphomaniacs.

[willaful]

Erika wrote: "I might add here: I just don't enjoy reading about casual sex encounters. I like to read about something a little more special."

I think for many of us who read romance, our intellectual views and the sort of stories we like to read may be completely incongruent! I would hate to live in the sort of romance I enjoy. :-)

[Becky]

Very interesting discussion...although I do love historicals, I find many are about rakes who are the historical equivalent of the man-whore. The problem for me with a man-whore is in believable HEA which for me requires no cheating. Men who use women as playthings and don't at least develop a FWB connection pretty rarely become faithful husbands. A well-executed redemption can definitely get me there, especially where the hero's promiscuity was linked to emotional dysfunction, abuse or a bad betrayal, etc., and it is with heroine that he first learns to love/open himself to another person. So it's not the presence of a manwhore that bugs me, but how formulaic the story becomes when the tired trope substitutes for originality and character development.

Also, It's not so much his past as the juxtoposition to heroine's lack of sexuality that makes me crazy. Sadly, many current romances are caricatures of manwhores with Madonna/whore complexes getting together with a heretofore asexual virgin just waiting for the slutty prince to awaken her. It's just so overdone. I think it is all about sales as there is a pretty heavy mysoginistic audience that rates any non-virgin female as a whore (and some give those books one-star reviews.) I'm not sure why romance readers are so judgmental about female sexuality but think it's a-ok for a man to use women to meet their "needs". Most of the non-virgins never even enjoyed sex before the hero. I guess we are supposed to believe that using women as objects made him a great lover. This I really find hard to believe.

(Btw, I don't mind a virgin heroine at all if it's believable (she is very young, was raised by nuns or held captive on an island) but hate when it's ridiculous and REALLY hate when she then melts to be used by a manwhore who treats women like garbage. It reminds me of the syphillis cure that men used to take, thinking that sex with a virgin would cure them (of course, it just gives the poor virgin syphillis). So it's less the manwhore but rather the manwhore with the innocent that really annoys me. And that might be 85% of the market!)

I think some authors use the manwhore element as a proxy for hero's desirability to women (proving he can get them), to avoid him having loved before, and/or to add an element of sexuality to the story (that's why so many scenes where heroine sees the hero actually having sex with someone else.)

My problem is that I love the hero to be a powerful alpha-male, and it's really hard to find that in the sweeter small town stories although there are some. I would also actually like a heroine with strong desires (whether she acts on them or not) but it is really rare to find that! I'd do better if both hero and heroine were free/promiscuous before they found love and commitment values with each other. But it's so rare.

And finally, what I really hate is when they've gotten together and then are separated, and heroine is celibate while hero sleeps around. At this point, I can rarely stomach those stories. So if I cut those and manwhore stories out, I'd have nothing (at least in romance) to read!

[Jabberwocky]

Speaking of, anyone know of any good romance that DOESN'T have these elements (i.e. cheating, man-whoring)?? I, myself, have become weary of reading romance unless I know beforehand if the hero has sex with someone other than the heroine in the story. I can't stomach it either.

[Becky]

I have read many where he isn't as well. Mary Balogh does have a few rakes intent on seducing heroine (2 even bet they can bed her! But most of her heroes do become honorable even if they don't start that way) but also many honorable men amongst her heroes who were never rakes at all. try Dark Angel / Lord Carew's Bride. I loved the Bedwyn and Huxtable series too--I think Stephen's story has him turning down an affair!
Dark Angel has a hero with a bad rep but he's no manHo, he does do some things that are wrong but makes up for it in a big way. It is my favorite of hers, but it's very stark about historical aspect of marriage (women were chattel, the marriage bed was a duty no headache would undo). The second book about Lord Carew has a hero without a trace of manHo but a heroine (who you meet in book 1) who was actually attracted to a shallow, good-looking manHo! There are so few books exploring why a woman would choose the hot slutty jerk over the stable man of honor, it is wonderful to see that choice come out the other way. (Now I have to try to remember where else I've read the trope before, where heroine chooses the good guy...).
Although, almost all Balogh's rakes do undergo visible transformations.

Often when a hero isn't a manHo, he's quirky or intellectual/bookish. Hard to find the virtuous rock star/athlete.

I actually don't mind a playboy (appreciate the Cinderella appeal of a man who could have anyone wanting the heroine) if there is a real redemption--my favorite NA is Thoughtless but if the woman is virtuous or virginal (the heroine in Thoughtless heroine was not, she was cheating!) it has to make sense that she would fall for him, perhaps we see him come to realize his inherent emptiness/loneliness or their dialogue develops such that she uncovers an underlying character. That's a question of the writer's talent. Too often they rely on his fickle, nasty, jealous weakness as the whole plot. (I actually think the manHo/virgin thing is often just a way for authors to avoid having to come up with an original plot!) All too often he doesn't have much character, and then I don't see him turning it around and staying faithful. It's all in the execution.

If you like HPs there are some where hero is experienced but either wasn't a manHo, or maybe it's referred to as a past element but the story reveals character. Blackmailed into Marriage might be my favorite hero, and Royally Bedded, Regally Wedded (hero starts out a useless playboy, although that is referenced not shown, but finds such character).

[Matthew]

Becky wrote:
My problem is that I love the hero to be a powerful alpha-male, and it's really hard to find that in the sweeter small town stories although there are some.


The powerful alpha-male can generally have almost anyone that he wants, and he is unlikely to settle for monogamy. Historical examples would be King Solomon, Julius Caesar, Genghis Kahn who always had access to multiple women.

[Matthew]

And there were some alpha males who didn't care too much for women,e.g. Frederick the Great

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/hist...

[Becky]

And that's exactly why it's romance fantasy! He falls for this one woman and pledges eternal devotion to her because all that wild sex on tap was so empty (plus the rake sowed all those oats so can now settle down because it's out of his system) and all he really needed was the "wuv" fo a good, pure woman... Of course it's a lie, promiscuous people very rarely stay faithful after marriage, it doesn't leave his system, but it's at the core of many romance genres.

There are some alpha heroes who are strong and honorable, and don't use and discard women like tissues. But hard to find.

[Matthew]

Becky wrote: "
And that's exactly why it's romance fantasy! He falls for this one woman and pledges eternal devotion to her because all that wild sex on tap was so empty"

Ah, yes, but what if he felt the same with all of his previous women, that he eventually got tired of? Perhaps as he gets to know her better, he decides that she isn't all that. How do we know that a new woman isn't going to come along to eclipse his current love interest?

[Matthew]

Erika wrote: ..
Interesting comments. You know, I guess I am not 100% certain what qualities are scientifically considered alpha male.
"
Does anyone really know? I'm sure you would get very diverse opinions on that.

Most important IMO would be power, influence, money, intelligence, which all can be used as a means to an end.

Personal charm, physical strength, good looks, are of secondary importance, since they can be acquired somewhat.

As for genuine kindness, that's difficult to ascertain on first impressions. Many individuals can put on a good show until you get to know them better.

[Belle]

What do you think of Jamie Fraser of Outlander? He was a virgin when married and he has a lot of other good qualities. Does he puff up your skirt?

[Belle]

I have not seen the series and it would probably throw me off after my own visual images (not that I have ever had a redhead fantasy). My niece gave me the book and about 1/4 of the way through it I was going to quit reading but she kept nudging me to continue. Really, the first half of the first book was dang slow but then I got into it. I have lots of issues with it but it has enough history and medicine and personal drama to keep me going back to read the next book. If you like hot detailed sex, this is the book series for you. However, I remind myself it is really fantasy now because they are in their late 50s and at it like rabbits. What did they use for Viagra then? A stick tied to it?

[Becky]

Erika wrote: "Becky wrote: "I have read many where he isn't as well. Mary Balogh does have a few rakes intent on seducing heroine (2 even bet they can bed her! But most of her heroes do become honorable even ..."

I love that whole Maya Banks series. I spent 20 years reading historical almost exclusively but a few last year got a kindle and started with new adult, sci-fo, motorcycle club, pretty much anything that looked good. this year am back reading Harlequin Presents (which I last read in my teens).

I agree with that list, there are great reads where hero starts out fantastic and heroic, but I don't mind starting out with anger and a negative view of heroine as long as hero ends up ultimately displaying innate kindness. I love a regular guy who becomes a knight in shining armor. (Taut: The Ford Book had an interesting, quirky (Asperger's type) selfish guy who became a real hero. (Either scenario could be a big transformation...I actually love a man discovering his inner hero).

Non-judgmental views and patience are less critical to me, but selfishness is out! I actually like a jealous/possessive hero within reason.

For me it's an ultimate display of physical and mental strength (he doesn't have to be brilliant but I prefer savvy), integrity, protectiveness, integrity (a little different from honesty). I don't need wealth or influence. I like a cop struggling with economic difference from heroine Liberating Lacey or an army vet/SEAL. Even if initially angry at heroine, he will develop feelings and display kindness and affection beyond sexuality. He winds up believable as a great father if kids are involved.

[Becky]

If you are a fan of Pride and Prejudice, you should definitely try Balogh. Try the Slightly series, especially Slightly Married and Slightly Dangerous. Another is No Man's Mistress, hero is really innocent. I also loved More Than a Mistress, which is the first book and would aid in understanding the second, but that hero is more rakish. The Gilded Web is another honorable hero. Stay away from Indiscreet, Tempting Harriet and The Incurable Matchmaker and especially Dancing with Clara, I loved these books but they start out as rakes. But overall Balogh has more non-rakes than rakes. She's even got a few dandies and one that heroine thinks is gay!

If you liked Never Seduce a Scot, try Annie's Song. Same author also wrote Keegan's Lady.

Lisa Kleypas, Julia Quinn and Sabrina Jeffires have a few such heroes...but also lots of rakes, so check the particulars. Lady Sophia's Lover, Love in the Afternoon and some of the Bridgertons are pretty classy guys.
I love a Western with a decent man, perhaps a widower, with a Charles Ingalls feel...have read a few mail order bride stories like that...
I am not into clean or Christian romance, but Redeeming Love hero was pretty special.

[Pam]

Jabberwocky wrote: "Speaking of, anyone know of any good romance that DOESN'T have these elements (i.e. cheating, man-whoring)?? I, myself, have become weary of reading romance unless I know beforehand if the hero has..."

OOT caveman alpha,,,no cheating. love it. He does " MINE" in capital letters.

[Becky]

Two more non-manwhore contemporaries...

Innocent 'til Proven Otherwise (hero is divorced..wife left him, he's the one who wanted kids). And celibate for 18 months since!

What Price Paradise. Hero is such a compassionate, honorable person, he is torn but really tries to do the right thing. He was with one woman for a long time...he did have a 1 night stand with heroine at a time when the fiancé had broken up with him, but I didn't judge him too harshly...fiancé cheated ALOT.

[Becky]

Easier than my 2500 :).

[Maggie the Muskoka Library Mouse]

I totally agree. Rakes, playboys, and arrogant ass "heroes" do nothing for me. I guess they are so popular because a lot of women dream about being the one to change a man's mind, and make him see her as something he can't live without.