21st Century Literature discussion
2020 Book Discussions
>
There There - Prologue and Part 1 (spoilers allowed)
date
newest »
newest »
message 1:
by
Hugh
(new)
Jan 01, 2020 07:39AM
Mod
reply
|
flag
Just from a quick marketing prospective, I like how Tommy Orange’s book is orange.
Another incidental observation. I found it interesting that one of the sections says that "Indians" with colors for last names (Blue, Brown, Orange) got those names from army troop designations.
Mod
I liked orange’s use of the Indian head for an opening. I had forgotten about that but clearly recall seeing it on the TV screen when I was a kid. Pretty staggering when we consider the historical background Orange introduces. Why on earth was that image used? It certainly wasn’t innocuous.
Hugh wrote: "One more question - why are some of the stories told by an omniscient narrator and others by their protagonists?"I noticed this also, and you mentioned the style, Hugh. The style is decidedly demotic, so much so that it borders on blatancy. The use of the word "shit," the use of "gonna" and "wanna," which are words always used in comic books, but they are also the way Americans speak. We almost never say "going to" or "want to." It is very important for a novelist to sound natural, not to seem to draw attention to his/her language for its own sake, unless we are being dazzled by innovation. But sometimes one can overdo the "wannas" and "gonnas." In this case, though, I went for it. I thought Orange brought it off, but no really good writer ever does it purely unconsciously, in my opinion. They always know exactly what their word choices are. What do others think?
Clarke wrote: "Hugh wrote: "One more question - why are some of the stories told by an omniscient narrator and others by their protagonists?"I noticed this also, and you mentioned the style, Hugh. The style is d..."
I think you're exactly right Clarke! Intentional and well-done. I remember Orange's writing style even seemed to change for each character, but I'd forgotten the narrator vs first-person.
I haven’t finished Part 1, but wonder if the the first chapter in first person has to do with it being told by an “authentic” Amerindian. In the next chapter, we learn that Dene is a half-breed, so his white half seems to resonate with the traditional third person point of view. Orange here uses limited point of view, closely aligned with Dene, making it seem like first person, so the shift is subtle. Interesting. He also wants to record authentic stories, which also emphasizes his distance from that position. What do others think? Incidentally, Dene means Navaho.
Clarke wrote: "Hugh wrote: "One more question - why are some of the stories told by an omniscient narrator and others by their protagonists?"I noticed this also, and you mentioned the style, Hugh. The style is d..."
I noticed this as well Clarke. I grew up in the deep South but now live in Arizona. It took me several years of consciously correcting my gonna's, fixin' to's, wanna's and a lot of others that I could name that we grew up hearing. Even now, if I get excited and start talking fast, I have a tendency to lapse into my childhood dialect. I thought Tommy Orange really pegged the vernacular of that era. I like this book very well so far.
Elaine wrote: "I liked orange’s use of the Indian head for an opening. I had forgotten about that but clearly recall seeing it on the TV screen when I was a kid. Pretty staggering when we consider the historical ..."I remember seeing this on TV when it was signing off when I was a child. I never thought about what it must have subliminally meant to some. Much of that in advertising is going on today.
Having finished Part 1, I see that there is not one consistent POV, nor is there a pattern. I think this relates to the question of Native identity that Orange raises. There is not one set or monolithic identity; they vary tremendously. But beginning with first person, invites the reader to enter this dimension, so we too become part of it. Very clever, really, and effective.
It's really hard to say how conscious the shifting POV is, because it seems so careless. I couldn't believe Orange wasn't aware of it, though. My feeling is that he was rooted in the vernacular Glenda referred to, including a deep rejection of the institutionalized thinking of the dominant culture. In other words, Orange doesn't give a f*** about the theorists, the grammar police, the intellectuals both petty and otherwise, he wants to sound like those drug dealers in Oakland, and immerse us. The result was that he sounds natural, and I'm not distracted in any way. An example of an attempt at this that, in my view, did not work quite so well was The Color Purple by Alice Walker. The vernacular there became a tic, even though it was easy to read.
Mod
For those of you interested in some historical background, the section at Alcatraz is relevant as this marked the beginning of Native American activism.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occup...
In The Inconvenient Indian, Thomas King emphasizes its importance.
I found it interesting too, the way in which Orange manages to reconnect Jacquie and Harvey at an AA meeting. This is quite a believable coincidence.
Is the Jacquie and Harvey meeting up at an AA meeting from a future chapter? I'm just at the end of this section, and don't remember that.I'm really enjoying the style, and find the vernacular appropriate. I believe all the chapters are in first person so far except Dene Oxendene. He must be different than the others. Maybe he doesn't survive or survive as long? It's in his chapter that "There, there" is mentioned.
The prologue was very informative. I remember the test pattern, and sadly remember not thinking a thing of it as a kid. And I remember Iron Eyes Cody. That time was full of negative and stereotypical images. How ignorant and blind we were.
Now that I'm thinking of this particular kind of ignorance, around the same time (late 60s? early 70s?), south of Oakland, but nearby in San Jose, there was a popular local late night TV duo called The Old Sourdough and Wachikanoka (a stereotypical Native American characterization), who played bad movies and told bad jokes.
Sorry about that. Jacquie and Harvey crossing paths is in Part II, in the chapter Jacquie Red Feather.
Elaine wrote: "Sorry about that. Jacquie and Harvey crossing paths is in Part II, in the chapter Jacquie Red Feather."No problem--something to look forward to! ;-)
Clarke, I'd say the POV shifts were VERY intentional. It is explicitly stated by Dene in his pitch: there is no "typical" indian. The same point is stated by another character later on, in case the reader missed it.
Elaine wrote: "I haven’t finished Part 1, but wonder if the the first chapter in first person has to do with it being told by an “authentic” Amerindian. In the next chapter, we learn that Dene is a half-breed, so..."Yes Dene is the Navajo word for their tribe. Interestingly, many of the tribal names Natives give themselves mean "people" in their own language. They also may mean people plus a descriptor. For example, the Wampanoag from Massachusetts (Cape Cod and Martha's Vineyard) call themselves "people of the first light (or dawn". Many tribal names were given to them by Europeans who ignored native people's names for themselves.
I just finished the book. What appeared to me to be the central theme was identity, and how it is defined. In the US, there are two "racial" groups who have been defined by state and federal laws. The result has been that people of African descent have had to prove they are NOT black to avoid restrictions placed on them by various state laws. In Louisiana until the late 1970's, a person was considered black if they had 1/32 nd African Ancestry (or one ancestor 5 (?) generations back). This was known as the "one drop" rule. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...
Because Native Americans have some rights and government benefits they can claim, the government focuses on limiting who gets those "privileges". The tribes determine what "blood quantum" qualities an individual to membership. It can vary from 25% to even smaller amounts but is complicated to determine sometimes.
Blood quantum emerged as a way to measure "Indian-ness" through a construct of race. So that over time, Indians would literally breed themselves out and rid the federal government of their legal duties to uphold treaty obligations.
See https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswit...
I apologize for the long history lesson, but think it is relevant to the dominant theme of identity in this book. Identity confusion is part of that theme and related to the disconnection that some of the youth in this novel feel. It is not surprising that they are confused. Parents who are addicted to alcohol or drugs lose their children, and there is a lack of support to help them get and stay sober. Life on many reservations is bleak. Pine Ridge in South Dakota and home of the Lakota (Sioux), is one of the poorest places in America. Life in cities as we see in this book, and in my experiences in New England, is alienating, and also bleak. This is not to say that all Native people in America live this kind of existence, but that too many do.
Mod
Just a minor correction, "Diné" is the self-defining term for Navajo. Dené are more northern First Nations. Navajo is part of the same language group, "Na-Dené".
Whitney wrote: "Barbara wrote: "Yes Dene is the Navajo word for their tribe...."Just a minor correction, "Diné" is the self-defining term for Navajo. Dené are more northern First Nations. Navajo is part of the s..."
Thank you! I know the Diné term but didn't know the difference and was just going with the spelling in the first comment without checking.
Haunting, disturbing, downcast and bitter, are words I would use to describe both the Prologue & Part I of Orange’s There There. A novel that appears to be influenced by equal parts myth and history- power and curse- their transcendence into the modern day lives of those with strong ties to the indigenous community and generational suffering they endure because of it, Orange creates the beginnings of a substantial enough roadmap for these characters to journey on towards the Big Oakland Powwow (16).In what has been divulged in these pages, most especially in Tony Loneman’s chapter, I believe we are in for some sort of shocking surprise. His character reads to me to be exactly as his namesake, as are the other characters and their names, a lone man…with a penchant for violence, if provoked…and somebody with access to firearms. While I drifted in an out of interest with the remaining three characters (Dene Oxendine, Opal Bear Shield, Edwin Black), I do love the quality of the narrative in each of these chapters, there’s a classic appeal to it for me; perhaps, even a little Mark Twainwish despite it being a 21st Century novel.
Tony Loneman…he genuinely breaks my heart. The FAS, the state of his life, it’s all rather devastating because I find him to be so much more than his drome. He’s soulful, intelligent in the non-traditional sense and loving, Tony is a gentle giant. I also like his connection to MF Doom (great musician, by the way, if you enjoy rap music), the irony in their masks; some of us wearing one by choice and others forced to hide behind theirs.
Dene Oxendine…this guy had a jolting effect on me after reading about Tony, who put me in a particular state of mind. I wasn’t as connected to Dene, but I was still curious to read if he would prevail in his endeavor to capture the American Indian experience through his unique perspective. I was absolutely tickled by the inclusion of the reference to Radiohead’s There There because that’s where my mind went when I first came across the novel.
Opal Bear Shield…another great character, I'm really curious to read more about her; however, I was too taken by Two Shoes her teddy bear and where exactly it was her mother had brought her. Orange’s description of Opal’s new home as the place
We’re going to be with our relatives. Indians of All Tribes. Where they built that prison. Gonna start from the inside father cell, which is where we are now, Indian people, that’s where they got us, even though they don’t make it seem like they got us there. We’re gonna work our way out from the inside with a spoon (48).He brings to the forefront the Occupation of Alcatraz. It happened, as Elaine has already mentioned.
Edwin Black…he’s dark, anxious and depressed. Clearly, he’s afflicted by his isolation. I was relieved for him at the end of his section. Man, another great nod to exceptional musicality, A Tribe Called Red... Give them a listen, if you already have not.
They’ve been around for the better part of a decade, it’s so cool to read about them in this book!
Harvey got around, didn’t he? Smh.
Elaine wrote: "I liked orange’s use of the Indian head for an opening. I had forgotten about that but clearly recall seeing it on the TV screen when I was a kid. Pretty staggering when we consider the historical ..."I loved this entire post. I was going to ask if anybody remembered the Indian Head Test Pattern, it was just a little before my time, but didn't stop me from wanting to know. I found this, is it as you remember it?
I'm not sure why it was used other than attributing it to the popularity of the Buffalo Nickel in that time period.
I see that there is not one consistent POV, nor is there a pattern. I think this relates to the question of Native identity that Orange raises. There is not one set or monolithic identity; they vary tremendously.
Yes, exactly. This!
Incidentally, Dene means Navaho.
How are you pronouncing this...is it Dean, De-nay?
Kathleen wrote: "Is the Jacquie and Harvey meeting up at an AA meeting from a future chapter? I'm just at the end of this section, and don't remember that.I'm really enjoying the style, and find the vernacular ap..."
I believe all the chapters are in first person so far except Dene Oxendene. He must be different than the others. Maybe he doesn't survive or survive as long? It's in his chapter that "There, there" is mentioned.
I thought so too, his being the outlier narration; however, I didn't even think about what it would be attributed to, Kathleen. What an interesting take!
That time was full of negative and stereotypical images. How ignorant and blind we were.
Why would you have known this then, the American Indian culture was depicted exactly as Orange has written, for entertainment purposes. It was a different time period.
I remember Iron Eyes Cody too!! I would get so sad watching him shed that tear. I think it's a traumatic PSA commercial for children, looking back on it.
The Old Sourdough and Wachikanoka
Is there anything worse than The Lone Ranger & Tonto? I sat there happily watching old episodes with my Dad.
Barbara wrote: "Elaine wrote: "I haven’t finished Part 1, but wonder if the the first chapter in first person has to do with it being told by an “authentic” Amerindian. In the next chapter, we learn that Dene is a..."Barbara, thank you for the links and additional history. I love the addition of it alongside your other insights. I just finished reading through it all, letting it mull over as I sat back- definitely takes my reading of the Prologue and Part I to another level.
Ami wrote: "Haunting, disturbing, downcast and bitter, are words I would use to describe both the Prologue & Part I of Orange’s There There. A novel that appears to be influenced by equal parts myth and histor..."I do love the quality of the narrative in each of these chapters, there’s a classic appeal to it for me; perhaps, even a little Mark Twainwish despite it being a 21st Century novel.
I think you're really onto something here, Ami.
He brings to the forefront the Occupation of Alcatraz …
This fascinated me. I remember it as a headline only, with hints of failure to the end of it. Maybe because I was too young to read about it, but still, what a "social studies" unit this would have made in school! But they wouldn't have touched it at the time. I loved getting this perspective.
Is there anything worse than The Lone Ranger & Tonto? I sat there happily watching old episodes with my Dad.
No, probably not! It's hard to overstate how pervasive "cowboys and Indians" was. And I remember playing, and that who wanted to be which was always telling. :-/
Kathleen wrote: "Ami wrote: "Haunting, disturbing, downcast and bitter, are words I would use to describe both the Prologue & Part I of Orange’s There There. A novel that appears to be influenced by equal parts myt..."I’ve always thought Twain to be the master of vernacular, however, Orange seems to be holding his own and I’m liking him for it. ;)
I had not a clue. The Prologue was nicely cushioned with so many legitimate real life associations, I started googling some of the references I was not aware of, starting with the Indian Head test pattern. Lo and behold, Orange isn’t taking artistic liberties with any of it. I don’t recall spending any more than a two weeks in high school or college history classes (think 90’s) on the North American Indigenous People; and, when we did, we covered the The Trail of Tears, Louisiana Purchase, generational alcoholism aspects. 🙄
And I remember playing, and that who wanted to be which was always telling.
Yep! SmH. We were kids. Somebody should do a comedic/satire skit of politically correct kids playing Cowboys and Indians. ;P
Ami wrote: "...Somebody should do a comedic/satire skit of politically correct kids playing Cowboys and Indians. ;P "Brilliant! I can just see it. Quick--get that idea to a comedy writer.
Whitney wrote: "Barbara wrote: "Yes Dene is the Navajo word for their tribe...."Just a minor correction, "Diné" is the self-defining term for Navajo. Dené are more northern First Nations. Navajo is part of the s..."
I was going to say something similar. Diné is also the language of the Southern Athabaskan speakers (Navajo) and Dené is the Language of Northern Athabaskan speakers in Northern and Arctic Canada. Also, both of those words are pronounced De-nay and in the audio anyway, Dene's name was pronounced Deen. I wonder if the author was making a connection to a Native tribe or if it was just how Dene's name was spelled.
I wanted to add another piece of context about Native Americans in cities. In November our local public radio network, MPR, here in Minnesota (where we have many first nations) did a radio documentary called Uprooted. It covers the federal government attempt to assimilate Native Americans into the white culture by moving them to cities all across the U.S. As you will hear, this effort started in the early 1950's and led to many terrible consequences as well as Indian Activism such as at Alcatraz and AIM, which started in the late 1960's in Minneapolis, MN. On a related note, I've recently read a number of books about refugees and immigrants and many of the themes of what Native Americans experience who were moved to cities are similar to people who have sought asylum or migrated to the U.S. As has been mentioned, a prominent theme in There There is Identity.
I had not had a chance to read many of the previous comments when I posted the link to the Uprooted documentary. Great conversation! I'm eager to get the print copy of the book to more full absorb Orange's writing. I loved the audiobook, but didn't really get the full experience, not to mention having a hard time keeping track of characters . . . which got worse as the book proceeded! I did feel that the narration had a rhythm to it, much like the drumbeats of Native American music and dance. I thought it was a way to reinforce that everyone was in some way related to or going to participate in the big powwow and dance contest. Was that rhythm evident while reading the print book?
