Laurie R. King Virtual Book Club discussion
This topic is about
To Kill a Mockingbird
note: This topic has been closed to new comments.
Archived VBC Selections
>
To Kill A Mockingbird by Harper Lee - VBC Dec 2014
message 101:
by
LindaH
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
Dec 09, 2014 04:05PM
Sabrina, thanks for the link to the particularly well-written Wiki entry on Harper Lee. I might have skipped it. I liked the story about her first name, Nelle (her grandmother's name backwards), and why she dropped it and just kept her middle name, Harper, when she sold her book. (It might be read as Nellie.) This and
reply
|
flag
... This and a hundred other things about her suggest she is a very classy lady.Goodreads posted my comment before I was finished writing it. GR, please move the DONE link so that we tablet users don't touch it when we grab the sliding-on-its-easel iPad.
Mod
Debbie M. from TN
Laurie M. from NH
Sandy T. from CA
Lesa N. from KY
Kathy R. from KY
Lesley B.from KY
Judith W. from WA
Sally H. from CA
Jane C. from IL
Teresa S. from WV
Hooray–and if you like the story, please please talk it up to all your friends!
Laurie
Linda, there's a lot of interesting information about Harper Lee and Truman Capote. She was instrumental in the research for In Cold Blood, and Capote treated her shabbily, never giving her credit for her work, especially no mention of her in an acknowledgement in the book. He was pretty much a jerk, but then Capote always did buy into his own persona and "specialness." To add insult to injury, there were some unfound rumors that Capote wrote To Kill a Mockingbird for her. There is no truth to that rumor. Lee's road to writing TKAM is well documented. There are several good biographies about her, and I met the author, Charles Shields, who wrote Mockingbird. He said that at first Harper Lee appeared to want to cooperate in its writing, but that communications broke down, and she refused to talk to him or say anything good about the book. The latest attempt to gain Lee's endorsement for a biography comes from Marja Mills whose book The Mockingbird Next Door came out this past summer. Mills actually got permission to move in next door to Nellie Harper Lee and her sister and befriended the sister, Alice. Harper Lee's response to Mills' book and her surprise "to discover Marja's true mission; another book about Harper Lee" can be found in the article at http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/bo... Harper Lee is an intensely private person and does not suffer those who try to capture her life in a book gladly. And, although TKAM is her only novel, I am holding out hope that she has written in her seclusion and her writings will become available upon her death, not that I'm wishing that will be anytime soon.
As I've mentioned before, last April I went to a presentation about TKAM by Thomas DiPiero, Dean for Humanities and Interdisciplinary Studies at the University of Rochester (of which I am an alum). I can't begin to reproduce the fabulous interactive discussion, but some of you might be interested in a short essay he has written about the book, which can be found at http://www.rochester.edu/pr/Review/V7... .
Mod
What a great article, Lenore. Thanks for sharing. The difference between the two metaphors that Atticus used and the point about the mockingbird were deep. I especially liked this last bit:
Remember that it’s precisely when you think you’ve understood others’ perspectives that you must recall you are not in their skin. A lifetime of experience is not assumable. We’re arrogant—and we’re drawing on a learned ignorance that adults cannot afford—when we claim otherwise. We must learn the difference between understanding others and imposing our views on them.
Mod
Linda, Yes, that was very interesting about her name. And I noticed that Finch was part of her father's name.
Mod
Congratulations to the winners! I had the chance to read an ARC of Dreaming Spies and it was awesome!
Mod
I really struggled with understanding the title when I read this in high school; it seems to have absolutely no connection to the story. But mockingbirds are a symbol for innocence, so I think it applies to both Tom and Boo (and a few other characters too). Any innocent character who is treated badly or any character whose innocence is taken or tainted.
Mod
Oh! I heard about this! It sounded pretty deceitful, actually. I get that this book is beloved, but it seems pretty messed up to keep bugging this poor woman for decades about biographies that she clearly doesn't want written.
Mod
I'm having heard time wrapping my head around how one can read wrong. You can read or not read or read badly, but if you are reading, how can you be doing it wrong?
Lenore, the essay you reference is indeed "fabulous". DiPiero addresses, not just the title metaphor, but the range of reader responses to TKAM; he challenges adult readers to question what they take away from the book. His words certainly made me think about my own response when I first read TKAM at 18. The book was new on campus, I read a borrowed copy. By the end I was enraged about Southern whites--they were ignorant, superstitious and racist, while I, an idealistic, naive white girl from California, was never going to succumb to prejudice. Wrong, of course. I had already succumbed. In the 50 years since then, I have kept that prejudice about "the South" alive and well. It usually wells up right after elections, and I struggle to listen to and understand the Confederate flag wavers and defenders of voter ID laws, and to "walk in their shoes" and "live in their skin", as if I ever could...as DiPiero points out. Thanks, Lenore, for posting the link to this essay. I am glad that, after all these years, I am rereading Harper Lee's extraordinary novel, and that I still have the trial ahead of me.
Sabrina wrote: "Linda wrote: "Kathy, thanks for pointing out the tie in time and place of the Scottsboro trials to Harper Lee. Your comment made me want to learn more about her, and the first link I found was a mo..."The Wikipedia link was very interesting. My mother told me last week that Harper Lee's sister Alice passed away very recently. My impression is that Alice was the "gatekeeper" protecting an emotionally fragile Harper. My mom also said tha the character of the Aunt who comes to stay during the trial was based on Alice.
Mod
I didn't even think of that whole scene in comparison to a lot of the teaching methods today. But it's so true! Half the time I'm scratching my head trying to figure out how a lesson ties in with the maths they are learning. It seems overly complicated, so I just end up showing my kids how I learned something.
And the reading... Argh. The 'you must read this many words per minute' standard is annoying. Kids end up skipping over commas and periods to try and meet the standards. I've talked with numerous teachers and none of them like it either.
Mod
Erin and Laura, that is so sad about Harper Lee. She is clearly not comfortable with the fame that her book brought. And I agree, Erin, just leave the poor woman alone. It reminds me of interviews I've read with J.K. Rowling about the sudden, overwhelming fame that she was completely unprepared for, along with reporters taking pictures of her children, etc.
I have an author friend who started getting death threats from an angry reader who was threatening the lives of her and her children. Even worse, he lived in the same city. The police finally found and arrested him and all they told her was... the stalking and death threat charges you put against him is nothing compared to his other crimes.
Stuff like that is just something you don't really associate with writers. Fame is very scary!
Laurie wrote: "Congratulations to the winners of the Random House giveaway! I hope you enjoy your read of Dreaming Spies...Debbie M. from TN
Laurie M. from NH
Sandy T. from CA
Lesa N. from KY
Kathy R. from KY
Le..."
I received an ARC last week from a Goodreads contest. I am trying to savor every chapter but just got to the point halfway thru that I am tempted to just curl up with a plate of chocolate chip cookies and a warm blanket and binge read until the end. Enjoy friends.
I have been thinking about the social and political time of TKAM compared with current racial and social unrest in the USA. How would the trial of Tom Robinson be different in 2014? How would the news media and social networking sites treat these things?
What does Harper Lee think of the resurgence of racial violence in our society?
I can see that the trial of Tom Robinson would soon be a story on the national news with violent protests on both sides. One group would be supporting the "rape victim" and one group supporting the falsely accused black man. Atticus would have to defend Tom in court and on TV, Twitter, Facebook and Instagram.
In the end would the outcome be the same?
Mod
How would the trial of Tom Robinson be different in 2014? How would the ..."
I don't know that there would be protesting until after the trial, but there would be words everywhere about it. One of the things I think would get lost in our modern media is that everyone in the county knew how terrible Mayella's family was and what her father was capable of. I get the feeling we're far more compartmentalized in our communities today. Maybe that town would still be a tiny town where everyone knows everyone (I'm thinking of Margaret Maron's books here that are set in relative modernity, but still small town enough for her to know most of the county), but maybe not.
Actually...the case against Kobe Bryant a few years ago comes to mind for comparison. Though I wonder if that case would have shaken out the same way if Bryant wasn't a sports star.
Mod
Someone linked me to a video explaining how the new math is supposed to stress critical thinking and not just arithmetic and memorization. Interestingly, they use the fact that so many parents are having trouble helping their kids with this as proof that the old-skool way of teaching math was ineffectual at teaching true understanding of concepts. =P
Mod
If you remember that link, let me know, Erin! I could use it. It's a daily exercise of... what in the world are they trying to teach them? I'm as confused as my kids.
Mod
Erin and Laura, I have been wondering the same thing. That's a good point about the small town mentality vs the city community. I was just reading the BBC article on Bill Cosby. He finally commented on all the sexual assault charges and he said that he 'expects the black media to remain neutral' about the charges. He seems to be implying it's about race... but many of the women who laid charges against him are black.
Which is one notable difference today vs the trial in TKAM. The jury was an all white male jury. So Tom Robison's trial was basically made up of a lynch mob instead of a jury of peers.
Sabrina wrote: "Erin wrote: I don't know that there would be protesting until after the trial, but there would be words everywhere about it. One of the things I think would get lost in our modern media is that eve..."Let me state first if it's true about Mr Cosby he's a criminal rapist.
Our communities have changed since TKAM. The small isolated mall town rarely exits in America these days. So many people have access to cable, smartphones, ipads, and social media. Could there be many people who haven't heard about the current demonstrations against racial profiling by police?
There are so many correlations between TKAM and current times. One modern version of the lynch mob is the 24 electronic "news media". I can think of many recent cases including Mr.Cosby that were "tried and convicted of a crime" before ever being arrested. The news media has us all convinced it's true without all the facts. It happens with alarming frequency.
As a society we want to think we have evolved in 75 years but maybe just the methods have changed but not the emotional reactions.
I think it would help to note that Mr. Cosby hasn't been indicted, tried or convicted of anything yet, so, as Whoopi Goldberg and others have noted, all of these charges are allegations for the time being, until we hear something different. As disgusting and reprehensible as Mr. Cosby's conduct has been allegedly, until a prosecutor is brave enough or has enough evidence to indict him, all of the comments from everyone are just comments. Secondly, the internet makes everyone part of the same "small town". It makes the world smaller and the same problem arises when information is passed. In a small town, the information sometimes becomes skewed or biased when it is passed from one individual to another, similar to the way internet comments become viral almost immediately. It frightens me that most people seem to get their information from the internet and seem to automatically believe that it must be true.
The rereading of TKAM has been tough for me, I will admit. I love the story about the characters and atmosphere but my heart cries when I realize that in terms of race, we've made minimal progress. while the vast majority of people try to do the right thing, there is still that element of our society (and not just American society, travel to Europe and you'll see the same thing) that still sees color as the primary characteristic of a person. That feeling and that fear of "the other" is still there but it's just gone deeper underground.
Carolyn wrote: "...we've made minimal progress..."There are days that I certainly think so. I do a lot of employment discrimination law, and let me tell you, there are days I just want to beat my head against the wall. However, if you want to see a real demonstration of progress that we have made, read the incredibly depressing and horrifying Devil in the Grove: Thurgood Marshall, the Groveland Boys, and the Dawn of a New America. We may not be doing so well, but I think it's fair to say that we have progressed very far beyond what was described there, and we all owe a debt of gratitude to the brave folks who got us this far.
Mod
Mod
Laurie wrote: "Congratulations to the winners of the Random House giveaway! I hope you enjoy your read of Dreaming Spies...Debbie M. from TN
Laurie M. from NH
Sandy T. from CA
Lesa N. from KY
Kathy R. from KY
Le..."
I saw this post but didn't take the time to read it all to see that my name was on the list. I was so excited to come home today and find my advance copy of Dreaming Spies. School's out in 3 days. Once my finals are graded, I know what I will be doing.
I have read TKAM at least 3 or 4 times in my long life. I want to thank all of you. Your discussions have deepened and enriched my understanding of the book and of the world then, and now.
Sally wrote: "Laurie wrote: "Congratulations to the winners of the Random House giveaway! I hope you enjoy your read of Dreaming Spies...Debbie M. from TN
Laurie M. from NH
Sandy T. from CA
Lesa N. from KY
Kath..."
Congrats Sally. I got my ARC unexpectedly in the mail 2 weeks ago and was so excited. I'm about 3/4 through and I know you will love it.
Mod
Good points about the media, Carolyn and Laura. The media has definitely not changed. Hearing the words neutrality and media is like hearing 'peaceful bomb' to me. They just don't fit together. The media is a double-edged sword, whatever way it swings, its designed to cut someone down. I'm sure there are probably a few exceptions on reporting that remain impartial, but they are rare.
I believe that the media coverage of the case/trial was touched on in TKAM in a few places? I seem to remember Scout coming across some illustrations of Atticus and whatnot, but I can't recall the exact details.
Mod
So true, Merrily, and we discussed some of that earlier back with your other example of the Catholic vs Protestant and 'narrow eyes' comment. I sometimes feel like that society's obsessive need to put labels on everything and everyone contributes to prejudice. I think about it every time I fill out a form... all of them ask for race, gender, age, etc.
Why can't we all just be humans?
Sabrina wrote: "Merrily wrote: "Carolyn, it almost seems that part of our human nature demands that we always have some "other" to look down on, fear, or both. I still remember getting into a cab in Washington, ..."Merrily I agree. "Why can't we all just be humans"
When filling out surveys that ask about race, I mark the box for "other" and write in "human".
Debbie wrote: "When filling out surveys that ask about race, I mark the box for "other" and write in human"I love that idea Debbie. I plan to borrow it.
Mod
Debbie, Laura and all, that's a wonderful concept, and if we could all just see ourselves that way, the world would be a better place. (One of the reasons I always liked the Star Trek universe, where learning that we were not alone caused humans to finally stop fighting with one another and unite for the common good.)
Mod
I also remember a Star Trek episode which I believed starred Frank Gorsion. The two characters in the story were locked in eternal combat because one character was white on the right side of his face and the other was white on the opposite side of his face. I think I like your idea. I am a member of the human race.
Mod
Carolyn, that's right, that was a classic episode and of course, came out right at the height of the Civil Rights movement in the 60's. It said it all about the foolishness of prejudice against people who look different!
Brief description of a trial with a black defendant accused of killing 2 white girls in SC 70 years ago: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/20...
Mod
I always loved the way Star Trek addressed injustice and society's deeper issues in their story lines. I did not see that particular episode, but as an avid Next Generation fan, I know they had similar episodes.
I was reading an interview with a Science Fiction author (I can't find article now or remember his name) who was calling on SF authors to start coming up with solutions to world issues instead of writing grim dystopian novels about the future. Gene Roddenberry had such an optimistic view of the future, but now, with the slew of dystopian SF, the solution seems to be to kill off all but a handful of the population and then let them kill each other.
Mod
Sabrina, very true, the view of our future in current science fiction is pretty bleak. If you are looking for a wonderful post-apocalyptic novel that is actually hopeful in the end, I highly recommend "Station Eleven," which actually would be a great book to discuss in this group. It is a book that postulates that even in dire circumstances, the better angels of our nature can survive as well as the evil ones!
Mod
Thanks for recommendation, Merrily. I added it to my TBR list. It would be fun to branch out once in a while from mystery for a thought provoking read.
Mod
We’ve had a great discussion so far and have covered a wide variety of topics. For those readers just catching up, here are some main points we’ve been discussing:
1) Carolyn’s very thought provoking question: Has the environment changed fundamentally or has the schism that some people see between black and whites just gone deeper underground?
2) Favorite part of TKAM.
3) Mayella Ewell’s role and history in trial.
4) Is Atticus Finch too good to be true?
And I’ll throw in two more to the mix: Atticus Finch is a legendary character on par with Sherlock Holmes himself. Both have taken on a life of their own and are often treated as if they were actual people. What similarities do they share and how do they differ?
While Atticus Finch is widely discussed as the hero of TKAM, I found others to be equally as heroic in their own ways. What other characters stood out for you?
Mod
We’ve had a great discussion so far and have covered a wide variety of topics. For those readers just catching up, here are some main points we’ve been discussing:
1) Carolyn’s very thought..."
Sabrina, well one thing that Atticus certainly shares with Holmes is a fierce sense of justice and a desire to do right by someone who has been treated unjustly. Also, both characters are willing to fly in the face of convention when necessary to "speak truth to power" (in Atticus' case, it's the power of Conventional Behavior in his part of the world). I'm reminded of Holmes telling off the Duke of Holdernesse about his treatment of his legitimate son.
As to other heroic characters in TKAM, I certainly think that Tom would be one. He knows from the beginning, I suspect, what his fate is going to be but he stands up bravely in court and tells his story without flinching, even when he knows it will do no good and that by telling the truth about Mayella's role, he is probably signing his death warrant.
Which leads to me another question: what do you think happened to some of the other characters after the book ends? What was Mayella's life like, for example? Or Boo Radley's? Would Boo's rescue of Scout and Jem have changed his perception in the community and therefore, his fate?
Merrily wrote: "...Which leads to me another question: what do you think happened to some of the other characters after the book ends? What was Mayella's life like, for example?..."I can't help but think that Mayella's life -- and that of her siblings -- would in the long run be improved by Ewell's death. Mayella is no longer subject to either her father's beatings or his sexual advances. Because, as the oldest, she is now the "head" of the family, there is no one to stand against the truancy officials when they attempt to get the children into school -- at least some of the younger ones may actually get an education. And because it is implied that she is more oriented to both cleanliness and aesthetics than her father (remember the geraniums she nurtured?), the house may be kept generally cleaner and nicer. And, as the "boss," she may be more inclined to make her siblings help her around the house.
Mod
I can't help b..."
Lenore, I hope you're right. I do agree that Ewell's death could only be a relief to her. What I can't figure out is whether she'd be shunned by the community for having made advances to a Negro (because you can bet that everyone knows Tom was telling the truth even if they won't admit it) or forgiven because she lied on the witness stand and held up "her race." I can see her being ostracized just because she was the cause (inadvertant or not) of a wrenching community scandal.
Merrily wrote: "...What I can't figure out is whether she'd be shunned by the community ..."Oh, she'd have been shunned by the community even if the whole event had never occurred, because she's part of a family that, as Atticus put it, had been "the disgrace of Maycomb for three generations," living on relief checks and illegally taken game in a shack behind the dump, never holding a job or sending their children to school, etc. But with the senior Ewell out of the picture, the younger siblings have a chance at an education and an improved life, and the chance to work themselves or their children out of a state of perpetual disgrace.
Mod
Oh, she'd have been shunned by the community even if the whole event had never occurred, because she's ..."
Lenore, excellent points all!
Mod
Very true, Merrily. I was reading the wiki article on Atticus Finch and that's where I saw the comment about him being something of a folk hero in legal circles and treated almost as a real person. Then it had this quote from another resource: "No real-life lawyer has done more for the self-image or public perception of the legal profession," before questioning whether, "Atticus Finch is a paragon of honor or an especially slick hired gun."
Which all made me think of Sherlock Holmes. It's fascinating to me when fictional characters become larger than life. In a way they are more alive than most historical figures. They live in people's hearts and minds.
Are there any other literary characters that have taken on a life of their own?
Mod
The optimist inside of me would like to think this would happen, but given the glimpse we got of a younger brother in Scout's class... I'm thinking the oldest male Ewell boy would just take up his father's role as tyrant unless the sister got some type of help from the community, which seemed doubtful.
I really felt for Tom Robinson's wife and children. But at least the Reverend Sykes was looking out for them. Still, it was just all around sad.
The scene where Calpurnia took Scout and Jem to church was really wonderful. I thought the Rev. Sykes and Calpurnia were both heroes in that they put aside any wrongs done to them and took each person as an individual.
This topic has been frozen by the moderator. No new comments can be posted.
Laurie R. King Virtual Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Devil in the Grove: Thurgood Marshall, the Groveland Boys, and the Dawn of a New America (other topics)To Kill a Mockingbird (other topics)
