Laurie R. King Virtual Book Club discussion
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To Kill a Mockingbird
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To Kill A Mockingbird by Harper Lee - VBC Dec 2014
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Welcome to the discussion, Annie! How did your sons respond to the TKAM?
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I have lived North of the Mason Dixon line for 35+ years but still see myself as a product of the south. I value much of my heritage andI cringe at the racism I see when visiting my family. Much has changed for the better but much racism is hidden behind closed doors.
Laura, that is very much how I felt when reading it for the first time recently. I don't think I would have been able to comprehend the tragedies as a teenager. I think I would have mostly just thought Scout was really cool.
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That's true, Merrily! The world still have a long way to go though. Unfortunately, prejudice comes in so many different forms. It seems t..."
Sabrina, some years ago I was in Northern Island and we had several very interesting lectures about "The Troubles." One of the things that seems strange to a visitor is that this was a culture where people hate and discriminate against one another not because of race or skin color, but because of religion. You wonder how they even know who to hate, because they all look the same, but of course human nature finds "signs" (where you live, where you go to school, your accent...). At any rate, we were being driven around the area of Belfast where all those pro-and-against IRA murals were, and I noticed one that said something along the lines of "Their Eyes Are Just Like Ours." I asked our guide what that was all about and she said, "Oh, back in the old days people believed that you could tell a Catholic because they had smaller eyes than a Protestant." That says it all about the total lunacy involved in prejudice!
And getting back briefly to the jury trial in TKM, I think the point the trial makes is that evidence has nothing to do with it, Tom is condemned by the system as soon as a white woman says he has touched her. By the end of the trial, Atticus has clearly proved that Tom cannot have raped Mayella; his withered arm makes it impossible. But for the jury to acquit Tom, they have to call a white woman a liar in front of the whole community, and that they won't do. IF the conviction had ever gotten to a higher court it might have been thrown out, but Tom would still have been condemned (just as he was in the end, anyway). Society at that time was so rife with prejudice that there couldn't have been any other outcome.
Sabrina wrote "Anonymity really plays into the mob mentality. And reminds me of the scene where Atticus is defending Tom Robinson in front of the jail. And the subsequent explanation he gave to his children about how 'a mob is always made up of people'."Yes, Sabrina, the anonymity of the mob allows people to do things that they would never do on their own. Our smart little Scout listened well to her father, and in the jail scene where the mob appears to take Tom, she singles people out, giving them a name, and with the anonymity lost and humanity restored, the crowd disperses. It's one of my favorite scenes in the book and the movie.
Lenore and Karen, what a bonus for the discussion to have your knowledge of the law. However and unfortunately, not all were equal under the law (and, really are they now). The African American population was subject to the segregating Jim Crowe laws, with the laughable separate but equal application of anything from education to drinking fountains. Having been born in 1954, I remember the separate water fountains, seating at the movie theatre, and schools. Schools integrated when I was in the third grade, and thankfully I wasn't aware of what a big deal it was. I just knew I had a new friend named Anna. So, until the 1964 Civil Rights Act, Jim Crow was an ugly part of our country, and that affected a person of color being tried in a court of law. It didn't matter to the majority of those in the South in the 1930s who were charged with enforcing the workings of a trial. The law was too often taken into the hands of the mob mentality, with groups like the Klu Klux Klan dispensing vigilante justice of their own making. Talk about anonymity of the crowd. White robes and hoods hid many an "upstanding" citizen's identity. Anyway, the point is that Tom was never going to get a fair trial or win an appeal. The great thing is that Atticus upheld the right for Tom to get the best defense he could offer and didn't let the certain odds against him stop Atticus from doing what was right and lawful.
As I think about the Jim Crow laws, segregation, Civil rights, and all the hard battles fought, I have to wonder if the war against discrimination will ever be won. Discrimination is stil such a prominent part of the law enforcement and legal system for people of color, women, the poor, and even the young. In view of the recent events in Ferguson and elsewhere, the recent reversals in women's rights, and the mistreatment of young people in law enforcement situations, I am saddened by how much inequality still rules. I do want to note that I am not saying all law enforcement or legal proceedings are bad, just that I want them to be better. It's still a country in which a rich man's son or daughter can be caught with drugs and be given a slap on the wrist, and a not-so-rich or poor person's son or daughter gets a record and/or jail time.
I went Google-searching for "trials of blacks in the 1930s" and found the best description/explanation of racism I've ever read, a report on the Scottsboro trials by Miss Hollace Randall for the ACLU in 1931. (Sorry I can't post the link right now...will tomorrow if no one beats me to it.)
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Kathy, so beautifully said and obviously, felt. I too remember the "segregated South" and so am grateful for the progress, while also recognizing that we still have a long way to go (as recent events demonstrate).
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Kathy, the scene in front of the jailhouse just tugged all my heart strings. It was so moving on so many different levels. So much tension and emotion boiling under the surface of it. And then when Atticus leant against the jailhouse with his face to the wall... it spoke volumes. As a mother, I tear up even thinking about it. And it was so true to character that Scout didn't understand any of it until later that night when she burst into tears.
Definitely one of my favorite scenes too. Anyone else have a favorite scene?
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How interesting, Merrily. I think sometimes it is easier to discuss prejudice by looking at other cultures and their clashes. As an outsider looking in, I think just about everyone would look at a situation and say, 'Well that's just ridiculous.' But when it's close to home, it becomes personal and heated, and it's harder to rise above the mess to get a broader perspective.
And I think you're spot on with the point of the trial.
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Mine is always when Boo Radley comes out, Sabrina, and also when Atticus comforts Scout who has been rebuked by the teacher because she already knew how to read!
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And the other thing we forget is that (as the song in "South Pacific" says), "You've got to be carefully taught." When people are brought up from infancy to believe that something is true - whether it's that black people are inferior, or Catholics have small eyes - it's very hard for them to see reality, especially when society conspires to make it so. (Put people in inferior schools, neighborhoods, etc, deny them opportunities, and then condemn them for being Lazy and Shiftless...right.) One of the reasons that the Nazis were able to accomplish the Holocaust was that they'd brought up a whole generation of people to believe that Jews weren't human. It's really, really awful what some people do with children's minds!
Re message 55 from Kathy: Jim Crow laws notwithstanding, there were no laws applying evidence or presumption of guilt differently to different races -- which obviously didn't prevent differences in application at the trial level, but would have made it trickier for the appellate court to ignore the legal issues. They could have found some boilerplate to throw around while ignoring the law, but they might have some concern about how that language would be used in future cases where white defendants were convicted on legally insufficient evidence.Kathy wrote: "Sabrina wrote "Anonymity really plays into the mob mentality. And reminds me of the scene where Atticus is defending Tom Robinson in front of the jail. And the subsequent explanation he gave to his..."
Oh, Merrily, what an excellent point, and the propaganda used during Hitler's regime to teach the children to hate, fear, and distrust the Jews was just horrific. A link I looked up for this propaganda used actually starts out with your reference to South Pacific. "South Pacific made its debut in April of 1949, almost four years after World War II ended. In a moving scene where prejudice shatters the possibility of happiness, Lt. Cable and De Becque reflect upon the nature of prejudice and reach the conclusion that intolerance is something that must be carefully taught. That the Nazis subscribed to this belief is evident from the manner in which the Jewish problem was incorporated into the instruction of the young. Anti-semitism was the overwhelming topic in every school curriculum. Indeed, the propaganda picture books published by Der Stürmer, the organ responsible for the dissemination of many of the anti-semitic publications during the Hitler years, demonstrate that anti-semitism was taught before children "were six or seven or eight." The link to this article is:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/m/m...
And, Sabrina, great observation that it is often easier to discuss prejudice in its practice and effects in other countries or cultures. Children were certainly indoctrinated with messages about African Americans from different sources, but some were subtle, not calling the black man a villain or a threat, but portraying him that way on television or in stories. While it's true that Hitler conducted an overt campaign to brainwash children's minds, in American, we have done our share of brainwashing, too. I can even remember when Catholics in this country were rather suspect in their dealings, and many thought that JFK wouldn't be elected because of his Catholicism. Our children relate to this prejudicial thinking about Muslims, too.
After thinking a bit more about how groups of people are so egregiously misrepresented at times, I was surprised at myself for not mentioning Native Americans, especially since I am 1/8 Native American. the old western movies were widely accepted and enjoyed by movie goers, and in these movies the Native Americans were referred to as "savages." How's that for teaching kids to disrespect and devalue a people.
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His talk with her on the swing was so touching and funny, Merrily! Loved all the scenes between Scout and Atticus.
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And I was thinking, too, of how much the media influences people's view of other races. News agencies thrive on sensationalism and the photographs or footage they choose seems to be selected based on what will feed the latest media frenzy. That's why I love news articles or blogs that focus on the individual or the positive aspects of a culture (like Humans of New York), instead of lumping bad things in with one race.
Which leads into Atticus' closing trial comments. I just loved this bit:
"You know the truth, and the truth is this: some Negroes lie, some Negroes are immoral, some Negro men are not to be trusted around women--black or white. But this is a truth that applies to the human race and to no particular race of men. There is not a person in this courtroom who has never told a lie, who has never done an immoral thing, and there is no man living who has never looked upon a woman without desire."
He made it an issue with the human race. And I think it's beautiful that no matter where you are in the world, or what the local prejudice is, TKAM can be used to speak out against injustices.
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Even as a child, I never liked those movies. I always wanted the Native Americans to win (which is probably why I love Wednesday Adam's version of Thanksgiving in Adam's Family 2).
My husband's family is Salinan, which is an Apache offshoot. His grandmother looked like sitting bull and was about as expressive as the photograph. And his uncles used to poach on the Hearst ranch as kids...
Sabrina, here is one of the better links for allusions in TKAM, with chapter, page number, and explanation.https://mrsconnell-hss.wikispaces.com...
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Thanks to everyone so far for the terrific comments. I would have sworn that I had this book (and the movie) memorized, but when I looked at the link of allusions(#69 above), it's so obvious that I don't! Need to read it again.What I remember most (without trying) is what was cited above: everyone is valuable, everyone has failings.
Since I went on to work with mentally ill folks, I especially resonated to the idea of Boo. He was very odd, but he was 'still home in there.' There have been times in my life when working with a client, when I literally said to myself "It may not show, but he's still in there." In the book Boo not only was there, he took real risks to do the right thing. It's hard to have that much guts.
Another thing I remember easily is how brilliantly Harper Lee threads humor through the book. "Poo-ork!"
Hilarious, suspenseful. Amazing book.
December crazy-time has descended upon me so I haven't re-read the book yet, but I did want to direct your attention to a study at Harvard. It is an online test you can take to test your own prejudice. I think there are about 10 different tests looking at skin color, sexual orientation, gender, ageism, and others. I found the results fascinating. I will say that for both race and skin color I came out slightly prejudiced against darker skin and Black features, which the test goes on to explain is normal or somewhat better than normal for someone raised in this society and culture. It went on to say that those results are common even in dark-skinned and Black people from this country. The link is here if you'd like to try it: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit...
That is not necessarily true. A lot of rape victims are too ashamed to go to the doctor for a rape kit. Many don't report it for days or months. Ideally, a rape kit is prepared though it may run (as in DNA) for years.
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Sabrina and all,
One of the other characteristics of prejudice is that people tend to attribute a particular quality or qualities to a specific class of individuals, overlooking the fact that these qualities exist (as Atticus says) in all people. When I was first working, a male colleague said to me that women simply didn't make good administrators because they were "too emotional." I replied, "Why is that when a male administrator loses his temper frequently, gets flustered, demonstrates depression or giddiness, etc etc, people say 'Gee, Bob is tempermental,' but when a woman behaves in the same way, it's 'See, women are just too emotional to be administrators!'" In other words, women weren't seen as individuals, just thrown into a "class." Just as Atticus said!
And Karen B and Kathy, thanks for the interesting links -
Sabrina wrote: "Kathy wrote: Our smart little Scout listened well to her father, and in the jail scene where the mob appears to take Tom, she singles people out, giving them a name, and with the anonymity lost an..."One of my favorite scenes is when Jem realizes what a great shot Atticus is. Put his father in a whole new light, and brings home how little we sometimes know about our parents.
Sabrina wrote: "On the subject of racist propaganda: Those are all wonderful points, Kathy and Merrily. After reading Laurie's link, I looked up what was behind the watermelon reference, and there were a number of..."There is a scene in "Mississippi Burning" that always resonated with me:
Hatred isn't something you're born with. It gets taught. At school, they said segregation what's said in the Bible... Genesis 9, Verse 27. At 7 years of age, you get told it enough times, you believe it. You believe the hatred. You live it... you breathe it. You marry it.
We are raised by our parents, teachers and religious leaders, and if we are very lucky, we are taught tolerance and compassion. The quote above says a lot about how many people were raised in the South.
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Very true, Diane!
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Glad you could make it to the discussion, Meredith! So true about the humor laced throughout the story. Scout's 'voice' was just hilarious.
I admit that Boo was a bit of an enigma for me. I'm still not quite clear if any of the rumors about him were true... I think it mentioned he was put into an asylum?
And then all through the book, I thought that the To Kill A Mockingbird line applied to Tom Robinson, because all he had been trying to do was help another person. But then at the end, it seemed it was applied to Boo Radley. I guess maybe it's the overall story arc and message of book?
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What an interesting test, Karen. The tests are also addicting, lol. I took the skin tone one and found that I was moderately prejudiced against lighter skin tones.
This test reminds me of a topic I wanted to discuss in TKAM. It's probably safe to say that everyone has prejudices. As a woman, if I am walking down a deserted street at night, and see two large male shaped figures approaching, I am going to be on guard. It's a form of prejudice, I think, and one of caution. And not exactly bad... but necessary.
However, Atticus didn't seem to have any prejudice in him at all. Even after Mr. Ewell's character was revealed and he spit in his face, etc... Atticus still thought the best of him. He seemed shocked that Mr. Ewell would attack his children. And I sort of wondered if that shook his outlook on life and beliefs afterwards.
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This is true about current cases, Dina. But I was reading into the Scottsboro Boys case that Linda mentioned earlier, and even with a doctors exam of the women immediately after and his testimony that there was no sign of rape... the jury still convicted the boys.
So I think that Merrily's point is spot on. The evidence or lack of evidence didn't matter. It was a matter of race.
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And this still goes on today, Merrily! Your comment about women vs men reminded me of the scene where Scout (I think it was) is surprised to learn that women can't serve on juries, and Atticus makes the comment that women would probably ask so many questions that they'd never get through any trial. I THINK he was joking...
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That's very true, Diane. That's why I loved this quote from TKAM so much:
Sometimes the Bible in the hand of one man is worse than a whisky bottle in the hand of (another)...
Sabrina wrote: "On the subject of Atticus Finch. It seems that many readers feel that he is 'too good to be true'... how does everyone here feel about that statement?"Yes. Atticus does come across as "too good to be true" in the first part of the book. However, there is a revealing scene midway that corrects that impression. It takes place in Jem's room after Aunty Alexandra has told Atticus that he must speak to his children about WHO they are. Now, the full intent of AA's admonition might have slipped by me if I had not just read Hollace Ransdall's report on the Scottsboro Trials, a link to which I will post for those who are interested and have the stomach for it. It was the obligation of "gentle" people in the South like the Finches, among other things, to keep blacks down. The fact that Atticus stumbles through AA's task and ultimately fails to drive home this message, and feels anger that he can't, and then catches himself about to slam the door ("'Get more like Cousin Joshua [would-be presidential assassin] everyday, don't I?'", says to me that he is NOT "too good to be true". He is just a good person trying to do the right thing.
Which, as Harper Lee shows us, was dangerous in the 1930s, dangerous in the 1960s when she wrote TKAM...and, I would add, dangerous now.
Sabrina wrote: "KarenB wrote: "December crazy-time has descended upon me so I haven't re-read the book yet, but I did want to direct your attention to a study at Harvard. It is an online test you can take to test ..."The implicit bias test has not gone uncriticized. Google it and you will see that not everyone agrees on what it proves, if anything. (I take no position here -- just thought I'd mention this.)
"Southern whites feel to their marrow-bone only one thing about the Negro, and they say it over and over. Hundreds of thousands have been saying it for generations. They will continue to say it as long as anyone will listen. It is the only answer to the Negro problem. It is their reply to the questions of the Scottsboro case - the Nxxxxx must be kept down."Last lines of "Report on the Scottsboro, Alabama Case" by Hollace Ransdall, 1931
I found this piece, written in the 1930s about the most famous case of blacks being tried in the 1930s helpful in reading TKAM, which is about the trial of a black in a Southern town in the 1930s.
Here's the link:
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects...
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Sabrina wrote: "Dina wrote: "That is not necessarily true. A lot of rape victims are too ashamed to go to the doctor for a rape kit. Many don't report it for days or months. Ideally, a rape kit is prepared thou..."I agree with you, Sabrina. It was totally about race. I was merely commenting that even today there is not always physical proof.
I read an interesting article about the fact that it was never considered that the woman might have been telling the truth.
I think that Harper Lee meant us to think the rape accusation was a lie and see the prejudices of the time.
As Merrily pointed out, there are so many interesting and informational comments here that it is hard to respond to all of them. Thanks to Linda for the Scottsboro Trials link. That's such an important piece of history to study, and the trials happened when Harper Lee was six years old, which has led to some speculation about their influence on her when writing TKAM. Also, when Harper Lee was ten, a woman near Monroeville falsely accused a black man or raping her, and Harper's father's newspaper covered the trial. The man was convicted and sentenced to death, but he died in prison after a commuted sentence to life. The commuted sentence came from sources supporting his innocence. Meredith, I think TKAM is a book best read many times. I certainly didn't catch all the allusions either. In fact, sometime I want to read the book just for the allusions. Oh, and there is that wonderful sense of humor interspersed throughout the book, often a result of Scout's innocence about something. Oh, and I do love Boo so much! his ability to overcome his debilitating shyness and personal demons to help someone else makes him a hero indeed.
Diane, hate is absolutely a learned behavior, and religion has played a big part in its propagation. "“[M]ore wars have been waged, more people killed, and more evil perpetrated in the name of religion than by any other institutional force in human history. The sad truth continues in our present day.” (Charles Kimball)
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Merrily wrote: "Kathy, very well said and regrettably, true!"Thanks, Merrily. I know that there is much good done in the name of religion, too, but its capacity for people misusing it is indeed sad.
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Which, as Harper Lee shows us, was dangerous in the 1930s, dangerous in the 1960s when she wrote TKAM...and, I would add, dangerous now.
That definitely sheds more light on that scene, Linda. Thanks for pointing all of that out.
And your last point about how doing the right thing was dangerous applies to so many time periods and societies. History and current news likes to lump a nation, race, and religions into one big pile, but there are always individuals who try their best to be fair to everyone. Unfortunately, they find themselves trapped in craziness and can do little to change the tide.
I was talking with two different older friends of mine. One woman is in her 80s and grew up in Georgia. She lived right on the edge of the black and white divide in town, which was some train tracks. She said that her best friend lived right in the house on the other side of the tracks and she was always at their house and her friend was always at hers. Given that it was in the early 1940s, I thought that that was just beautiful and showed that there were people like Atticus and his family.
Some other friends of mine are probably in their late 70s, and they're a mixed couple who have been married since 1960. Since this was before the Civil Rights Act, I asked him if there was some controversy surrounding their marriage. He laughed and said, 'Oh, it caused a bit of a stir, but we were discreet. We just stayed away from country western dances.'
After a while, I think the individuals begin to add up and become an overwhelming force of change.
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I think that Harper Lee meant us to think the rape accusation was a lie and see the prejudices of the time.
Given that reported rape is so often called into question, I had wondered the same thing while reading TKAM, Dina. But you're spot on: Harper Lee was using the case as a way to highlight the prejudice and injustices of the time. I think it was Merrily who mentioned that a woman's testimony wasn't considered reliable back then, so I'm thinking that even if Mayella had told the truth, the jury would have still stuck to the father's account.
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Thanks, Lenore! I think the test was pretty clear that it was just a study and in no way concrete. The results definitely got me thinking though. In some of the tests, my mind kept refusing to put some words into the good category. So I think it's good for some self reflection.
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Glad you could make it to the discussion, Meredith! So true about t..."
Sabrina, I only just now saw this particular post as there have been so many in this thread - couple things: First, I have the vague impression that Boo Radley might have been a young man who'd been "shell-shocked" in WWI and therefore could no longer stand exposure to the outside world. I may well be wrong about that but for some reason there is that memory lingering in my brain. Alternately, he might simply have been someone we'd now regard as autistic, intelligent but with severe social interaction issues. In any case, in the story he's demonized and made into a monster just as Tom Robinson is.
As to "To Kill a Mockingbird," I think it refers to any senseless and unnecessary destruction of beauty and innocence, and could apply not only to Boo and Tom, but to the ruination of Mayella (presumably by her father), and to the loss of Scout and Jem's innocence as they come to understand the kind of world they are living in. It's a killer title, in any case!
Merrily wrote: "!...I have the vague impression that Boo Radley might have been a young man who'd been "shell-shocked" in WWI ..."That's not the story that Scout tells (at least at the point where I am in the re-reading). According to what Scout was told, Boo had gotten in trouble with a bunch of other teenaged boys, and rather than having him sent to the "state industrial school," his father locked him up at home. Do we learn something different later in the story?
Sabrina wrote: "After a while, I think the individuals begin to add up and become an overwhelming force of change."Yes, I agree, this is the way our nation will change: individual by individual, saying and doing the right things, adding to the whole. Thanks for doing such a great job, moderating this discussion. I really enjoyed the stories you shared. Persons like the ones you mentioned, keeping their own counsel instead of attending to the mob mindset, we must remember they're here too when others rage and defend injustice. I feel warmed-up in a good way, both by reading TKAM and by following this thread. Now to stepping out of my comfort zone. Social media gives us oldies a way to take part in the dialogue.
Kathy, thanks for pointing out the tie in time and place of the Scottsboro trials to Harper Lee. Your comment made me want to learn more about her, and the first link I found was a most curious one: harperlee.com/bio. I say "curious" because there is no umbrella homepage (anymore), just a biography that sounds like it might have been written by Lee or, more likely, someone close to her. It has that ring. I learned that Dill is based on her childhood friend, Truman Capote. After graduating from law school, she worked as his research assistant for In Cold Blood.
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Oh, good point, Merrily. I would not have thought to apply it to those other two. And I agree about the title!
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Thanks so much for saying so, Linda. I am enjoying the insights of others who have been reading TKAM their whole lives. That's what I love about book club discussions: everyone picks up on different points that I would have otherwise missed. And it's just fun talking about books!
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The wiki link has a bit more information on her, Linda. I was wondering if she ever wrote anything else, because really... as a writer, how would one even attempt to follow up with TKAM.
Turns out she never wrote anything else. Here is the reason she gave (according to wiki): "Two reasons: one, I wouldn't go through the pressure and publicity I went through with To Kill a Mockingbird for any amount of money. Second, I have said what I wanted to say and I will not say it again."
And here's the wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harper_Lee
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Laurie R. King Virtual Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Devil in the Grove: Thurgood Marshall, the Groveland Boys, and the Dawn of a New America (other topics)To Kill a Mockingbird (other topics)
That is encouraging to hear, Karen.
I have been seeing so many articles lately that address the separate issues of rape and race in the legal system. There are many articles about rape victims not being believed. And then there are many articles about how black males are more likely to be incarcerated than white males in the American legal system. Having worked (or still work) in the legal system, do you have any personal observations?