Laurie R. King Virtual Book Club discussion

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To Kill a Mockingbird
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To Kill A Mockingbird by Harper Lee - VBC Dec 2014

I also am curious what the reaction will be from other book club members. We have a very intelligent group here and I expect that some readers will compare the racial environment in the book to the current environment. My question is whether the environment has changed fundamentally or has the schism that some people see between black and whites just gone deeper underground.
Carolyn wrote: "I read this book back in high school and I'm looking forward to reading it again. As a African American woman of a certain age, I'm curious as to whether my feelings will be different than they wer..."
I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts after your reread, Carolyn. I did not read this in highschool (my teacher, oddly enough, was not big on encouraging her students to read) but I could not help wondering as I read, if the book would have had the same impact in highschool as it did now. Meaning, would I have fully appreciated it? What were your feelings at 16?
My question is whether the environment has changed fundamentally or has the schism that some people see between black and whites just gone deeper underground.
That is a really good question. I was doing some extra reading on this, and saw that the United Nations passed the Declaration on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination in 1963.
One article stated that 'some believe that such improvements only help prevent discrimination but may be powerless at eliminating prejudice. Because discrimination is an act that can be seen and punished by law, whereas prejudice is related to people's inner thoughts and emotions, which cannot be easily regulated.'
I was born in '79 and grew up in a cultural melting pot, so my perspective is very limited. I would like to think the environment has changed, but prejudice, whether it's black and white, poor and rich, female and male, is still present on an individual basis... which ultimately finds it way into the justice system. So in that sense, maybe the environment that Atticus Finch found himself in with the prejudiced jury has not changed all that much.
I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts after your reread, Carolyn. I did not read this in highschool (my teacher, oddly enough, was not big on encouraging her students to read) but I could not help wondering as I read, if the book would have had the same impact in highschool as it did now. Meaning, would I have fully appreciated it? What were your feelings at 16?
My question is whether the environment has changed fundamentally or has the schism that some people see between black and whites just gone deeper underground.
That is a really good question. I was doing some extra reading on this, and saw that the United Nations passed the Declaration on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination in 1963.
One article stated that 'some believe that such improvements only help prevent discrimination but may be powerless at eliminating prejudice. Because discrimination is an act that can be seen and punished by law, whereas prejudice is related to people's inner thoughts and emotions, which cannot be easily regulated.'
I was born in '79 and grew up in a cultural melting pot, so my perspective is very limited. I would like to think the environment has changed, but prejudice, whether it's black and white, poor and rich, female and male, is still present on an individual basis... which ultimately finds it way into the justice system. So in that sense, maybe the environment that Atticus Finch found himself in with the prejudiced jury has not changed all that much.
Hi All,
I read "To Kill a Mockingbird" when it came out - Yes I'm Old - and re-read it several times through my young adulthood - it was one of my favorite books. There are so many reasons, but probably the main one was the powerful portrait of Atticus Finch as a man willing to face great danger (and the hostility of his neighbors) to stand up for justice. I also think that Lee's evocation of a small Southern town at that period - the heat, the smells, the pace of life, the class distinctions that went even beyond race (recall Scout's being rebuked for exclaiming when the white boy from the lower strata pours molasses all over his food?) is spot on. And what a character Scout is! I think one of the reasons the book is so often taught in high schools is that every child can identify with her in some respects.
As to the horrible racism in the book, while I know that racism still exists (sadly) and is pervasive in our society, it isn't as blatant as it was in those days and as endorsed by the entire community. We acknowledge that racism is wrong, even if it still persists and is hard to stamp out. In the time the book was set, African-Americans were so set apart from the white community, other than as servants (see "The Help"), denied so many opportunities, and oppressed in so many ways, and very few stood up to speak out against it. It was just accepted by the community as The Way Things Are, and in many cases even endorsed by the church. So a man like Atticus Finch would have been very, very brave to take that stance in that particular time. The risks he ran - of actual death or the destruction of his home - were very real.
I should also add that I love Boo Radley, and that probably one of the reasons I identify with Scout is that she was reading before she was "supposed to." I bet there were many Scouts amongst this group.
I read "To Kill a Mockingbird" when it came out - Yes I'm Old - and re-read it several times through my young adulthood - it was one of my favorite books. There are so many reasons, but probably the main one was the powerful portrait of Atticus Finch as a man willing to face great danger (and the hostility of his neighbors) to stand up for justice. I also think that Lee's evocation of a small Southern town at that period - the heat, the smells, the pace of life, the class distinctions that went even beyond race (recall Scout's being rebuked for exclaiming when the white boy from the lower strata pours molasses all over his food?) is spot on. And what a character Scout is! I think one of the reasons the book is so often taught in high schools is that every child can identify with her in some respects.
As to the horrible racism in the book, while I know that racism still exists (sadly) and is pervasive in our society, it isn't as blatant as it was in those days and as endorsed by the entire community. We acknowledge that racism is wrong, even if it still persists and is hard to stamp out. In the time the book was set, African-Americans were so set apart from the white community, other than as servants (see "The Help"), denied so many opportunities, and oppressed in so many ways, and very few stood up to speak out against it. It was just accepted by the community as The Way Things Are, and in many cases even endorsed by the church. So a man like Atticus Finch would have been very, very brave to take that stance in that particular time. The risks he ran - of actual death or the destruction of his home - were very real.
I should also add that I love Boo Radley, and that probably one of the reasons I identify with Scout is that she was reading before she was "supposed to." I bet there were many Scouts amongst this group.
The watermelon joke made by Daniel Handler (a kind and decent man, who is white) underscores this--here is the other writer's piece on hearing that "joke" come at her along with the National Book Award:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/29/opi...
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/29/opi...
Laurie wrote: "The watermelon joke made by Daniel Handler (a kind and decent man, who is white) underscores this--here is the other writer's piece on hearing that "joke" come at her along with the National Book A..."
That was a wonderful article, Laurie. I hope folks take the time to read it as it really put one in the writer's position and made it clear why the remark was so painful (and inappropriate to the occasion, as well!).
That was a wonderful article, Laurie. I hope folks take the time to read it as it really put one in the writer's position and made it clear why the remark was so painful (and inappropriate to the occasion, as well!).
On can't help thinking that someone like Harper Lee, to whom racism was a daily reality rather than a theoretical knowledge, might have turned that same joke into a poignant message about racism: We are giving this award to a writer on black issues who reacts physically to the iconic food of oppression. I have a feeling that's what Daniel Handler was aiming at, but fell short because of blind spots. Perhaps because of growing up in San Francisco, a city of discrete enclaves, rather than South Carolina?
Merrily wrote: "Hi All,
I read "To Kill a Mockingbird" when it came out - Yes I'm Old - and re-read it several times through my young adulthood - it was one of my favorite books. There are so many reasons, but..."
So many good points, Merrily. I really felt like I was in Scout's shoes, or right at her shoulder the whole time. There was never any telling, but all showing in this book, which made everything come alive for me. And what an interesting choice Scout made for a narrator. I could not help but think how different this book would have been if the same story would have been told from Atticus' POV.
Your mention of Scout's rebuke for commenting on the molasses made me think of all the types of prejudices that Mockingbird dealt with. From class distinction, to women not being able to sit on a jury, to racism, to being different from others, ie: Scout and Jem having an older father. And that of course, made me think of Boo Radley, who was absent for the entire book save for rumor and gossip. It really illustrated how much fear and ignorance play into prejudice.
I read "To Kill a Mockingbird" when it came out - Yes I'm Old - and re-read it several times through my young adulthood - it was one of my favorite books. There are so many reasons, but..."
So many good points, Merrily. I really felt like I was in Scout's shoes, or right at her shoulder the whole time. There was never any telling, but all showing in this book, which made everything come alive for me. And what an interesting choice Scout made for a narrator. I could not help but think how different this book would have been if the same story would have been told from Atticus' POV.
Your mention of Scout's rebuke for commenting on the molasses made me think of all the types of prejudices that Mockingbird dealt with. From class distinction, to women not being able to sit on a jury, to racism, to being different from others, ie: Scout and Jem having an older father. And that of course, made me think of Boo Radley, who was absent for the entire book save for rumor and gossip. It really illustrated how much fear and ignorance play into prejudice.
Laurie wrote: "On can't help thinking that someone like Harper Lee, to whom racism was a daily reality rather than a theoretical knowledge, might have turned that same joke into a poignant message about racism: W..."
Thanks for the article link, Laurie. Through the years, I have heard various comedians make watermelon references, but never fully understood it myself (now I do...thank you Google). Unfortunately, comedy is so often insensitive and at the expense of others.
I like your version of what Harper Lee might have said. Handler probably regretted saying that. I think everyone is insensitive at times. I know I usually put my foot in my mouth at least once during every conversation. And I always appreciate when a friend is there who can gently help me remove said foot from mouth and set me right.
Thanks for the article link, Laurie. Through the years, I have heard various comedians make watermelon references, but never fully understood it myself (now I do...thank you Google). Unfortunately, comedy is so often insensitive and at the expense of others.
I like your version of what Harper Lee might have said. Handler probably regretted saying that. I think everyone is insensitive at times. I know I usually put my foot in my mouth at least once during every conversation. And I always appreciate when a friend is there who can gently help me remove said foot from mouth and set me right.
Sabrina wrote: "Laurie wrote: "On can't help thinking that someone like Harper Lee, to whom racism was a daily reality rather than a theoretical knowledge, might have turned that same joke into a poignant message ..."
Sabrina and Laurie, interestingly enough, I saw an interview with Chris Rock on the Today show yesterday, and one of the things he said was that sometimes racist comments arise from ignorance, not from intentional insensitivity and cruelty, and that when you point out to someone that they just said something hurtful, they are appalled and apologetic. So I would suspect that Handler was trying to make a point along the lines Laurie suggests and realized pretty quickly that he'd put his foot in it.
Of course the racism that Harper Lee describes was entirely intentional and institutionalized. One of the things that's done so well in the book (and why Scout's viewpoint is important) is that we see Scout gradually recognize that just because something is institutionalized doesn't make it right, and that her father is a truly great man, however eccentric he seems in view of everyone else.
And yes, Boo Radley is made into a monster when in fact he's another victim. (BTW, I've yet to see that scene at the end of the movie when Boo Radley comes out without crying).
And then there is the white girl who has allegedly been raped, and who was actually an unloved, downtrodden human being who just reached out for some comfort (but in doing so transgressed the boundaries of the day and so had to kill - in effect - to save herself from punishment).
What a truly great book!
Sabrina and Laurie, interestingly enough, I saw an interview with Chris Rock on the Today show yesterday, and one of the things he said was that sometimes racist comments arise from ignorance, not from intentional insensitivity and cruelty, and that when you point out to someone that they just said something hurtful, they are appalled and apologetic. So I would suspect that Handler was trying to make a point along the lines Laurie suggests and realized pretty quickly that he'd put his foot in it.
Of course the racism that Harper Lee describes was entirely intentional and institutionalized. One of the things that's done so well in the book (and why Scout's viewpoint is important) is that we see Scout gradually recognize that just because something is institutionalized doesn't make it right, and that her father is a truly great man, however eccentric he seems in view of everyone else.
And yes, Boo Radley is made into a monster when in fact he's another victim. (BTW, I've yet to see that scene at the end of the movie when Boo Radley comes out without crying).
And then there is the white girl who has allegedly been raped, and who was actually an unloved, downtrodden human being who just reached out for some comfort (but in doing so transgressed the boundaries of the day and so had to kill - in effect - to save herself from punishment).
What a truly great book!
Merrily wrote: He said was that sometimes racist comments arise from ignorance, not from intentional insensitivity and cruelty, and that when you point out to someone that they just said something hurtful, they are appalled and apologetic.
How true, Merrily!
And then there is the white girl who has allegedly been raped, and who was actually an unloved, downtrodden human being who just reached out for some comfort (but in doing so transgressed the boundaries of the day and so had to kill - in effect - to save herself from punishment).
There was a statement in the book when Tom Robinson was giving his account of events that leapt out at me. He said, "She says she never kissed a grown man before..." "...She says what her papa do to her don't count."
The implied incest adds a whole different dimension to Miss Mayella and her actions. If the jury acquitted Tom Robison, then they'd also be acknowledging Ewell's abuse of his daughter. It opens up another taboo subject that has, to this day, remained taboo to some extent. I noticed that this statement was not included in the movie version, and I wondered whether mention of incest was considered crossing an already stretched line.
How true, Merrily!
And then there is the white girl who has allegedly been raped, and who was actually an unloved, downtrodden human being who just reached out for some comfort (but in doing so transgressed the boundaries of the day and so had to kill - in effect - to save herself from punishment).
There was a statement in the book when Tom Robinson was giving his account of events that leapt out at me. He said, "She says she never kissed a grown man before..." "...She says what her papa do to her don't count."
The implied incest adds a whole different dimension to Miss Mayella and her actions. If the jury acquitted Tom Robison, then they'd also be acknowledging Ewell's abuse of his daughter. It opens up another taboo subject that has, to this day, remained taboo to some extent. I noticed that this statement was not included in the movie version, and I wondered whether mention of incest was considered crossing an already stretched line.

I won't make this post a lengthy one today. I just want to say that the single most aspect of the book that first struck me and continues to is that Atticus Finch talked the talk and walked the walk. He is a shining example of doing what is right when it's easier to go along with what has always been, the mob mentality. Being an established practice doesn't make actions or thoughts right. Atticus embodies the essence of right with his fairness, compassion, and open-mindedness. Of course, it was about "being right" with Atticus; it was about "doing right." So many wrongs to discuss in this setting of Maycomb and the 1930s, and there are indeed comparisons to today's world. Progress is a slippery slope that too often loses its footing. Women have experienced this slip in recent court rulings, and people of color have experienced it in law enforcement situations.
To me one of the interesting areas of observation and study in TKAM are the historical and literary allusions throughout it, of which there are many. I hope to see some of those discussed here. There are lists of them already compiled. I'll get a link for you. OK, enough for now.
Kathy wrote: "I must have read TKAM (how we refer to it when teaching it, for short) for the first time in my 20s (now 60). I've read it multiple times since, for pleasure and for teaching, which could be pleas..."
Kathy, all that is so true. One of the moving moments of the book is when Atticus is leaving court after his client has been found guilty, and the African-Americans in the balcony rise (and tell Scout to do so also) because he is passing by. That says it all about his stand in a difficult time.
Sabrina, indeed, Mayella is a kind of stereotype but one that has its roots in reality - you just have the feeling that her life hasn't been much better than an animal's (maybe worse than her father's mule, he'd value that!) and that when she tries to kiss Tom, she's looking for some affection from a man who has been kind and respectful to her. Considering what happened to a (using the language of the period) negro man who was thought to have "insulted" a white woman, she was risking his life in doing so - and her own if she had admitted to being attracted to him.
Kathy, all that is so true. One of the moving moments of the book is when Atticus is leaving court after his client has been found guilty, and the African-Americans in the balcony rise (and tell Scout to do so also) because he is passing by. That says it all about his stand in a difficult time.
Sabrina, indeed, Mayella is a kind of stereotype but one that has its roots in reality - you just have the feeling that her life hasn't been much better than an animal's (maybe worse than her father's mule, he'd value that!) and that when she tries to kiss Tom, she's looking for some affection from a man who has been kind and respectful to her. Considering what happened to a (using the language of the period) negro man who was thought to have "insulted" a white woman, she was risking his life in doing so - and her own if she had admitted to being attracted to him.

So true, Kathy, so many of the adults in this book are blinded by their own fear, prejudice, ignorance, or a combination of all three. It is the innocents who see the truth most clearly, like Scout and Boo Radley - and Atticus of course, but in his case it's because he's willing to see.
Kathy wrote: Atticus Finch talked the talk and walked the walk. He is a shining example of doing what is right when it's easier to go along with what has always been, the mob mentality.
Well said, Kathy, and so true. A link would be appreciated!
Well said, Kathy, and so true. A link would be appreciated!
Kathy wrote: "Merrily and Sabrina, Mayella is one of those characters that you want to hate for her complicity in what happens to Tom, but then you look at what she's had to do to survive in her hellish existenc..."
Very true, Kathy. I have mixed emotions about Mayella. On one hand, she was stuck in a miserable situation with an abusive father, and on the other hand... her situation was no excuse to condemn a man to hang. I felt Atticus' disappointment and pity at the end of his questioning with her. I think he was giving her a chance to stand up and escape her situation in front of everyone and she wasn't able to take it.
It also showed just how deep rooted the racism and hatred was with the jury. It was a clear cut case. And yet, the men on the jury sided with the most despicable man in their town over a kind, respectable, hardworking family man.
One wonders if Mayella would have retracted her story on the stand, if the jury would have chose to believe a 'hysterical' woman.
Very true, Kathy. I have mixed emotions about Mayella. On one hand, she was stuck in a miserable situation with an abusive father, and on the other hand... her situation was no excuse to condemn a man to hang. I felt Atticus' disappointment and pity at the end of his questioning with her. I think he was giving her a chance to stand up and escape her situation in front of everyone and she wasn't able to take it.
It also showed just how deep rooted the racism and hatred was with the jury. It was a clear cut case. And yet, the men on the jury sided with the most despicable man in their town over a kind, respectable, hardworking family man.
One wonders if Mayella would have retracted her story on the stand, if the jury would have chose to believe a 'hysterical' woman.

I re-watched the movie on DVD quite recently, and came away with the impression that Mayella was portrayed as a victim of incest. But now I wonder whether I got that impression from the movie itself or from some of the commentary that was also on the disk. By the way, I highly recommend both the movie and the commentary that is on the DVD version. We got it out of our local library -- I suspect many good public libraries carry it.
I may have missed the movie reference, Lenore. My house is not the quietest place to watch movies. After reading the book, I watched the movie for the first time too. I'll have to rent it again to watch all of the commentary.

Lenore, there is debate over whether Bob Ewell actually raped Mayella or committed other inappropriate behavior towards his daughter. I think Harper Lee left it an ambiguous matter. With his reprehensible actions in other areas, it's not too much of a stretch to believe he could have sexually abused his daughter. However, absolute proof is lacking.
Kathy wrote: As far as the jury believing Mayella if she recanted, Tom's fate was sealed before the trial ever started, so it really didn't matter what her testimony was. Of course, that didn't stop me from railing against the jurors in my mind as I read the travesty of the courtroom scene.
I had the same impression, Kathy. Even though Atticus knew the case was lost before it began, I couldn't help but feel that a small part of he was optimistic. That he dared to hope the jury would take a stand for justice's sake.
I had the same impression, Kathy. Even though Atticus knew the case was lost before it began, I couldn't help but feel that a small part of he was optimistic. That he dared to hope the jury would take a stand for justice's sake.

Actually, Atticus remains hopeful despite the jury verdict. He says he thinks they have a good chance on appeal.
Lenore wrote: Actually, Atticus remains hopeful despite the jury verdict. He says he thinks they have a good chance on appeal.
Definitely, Lenore. But for the case in the local court, one that was already decided, I think he was hoping for a different outcome. Do you think that Tom Robinson would have been acquitted in an appeal?
Definitely, Lenore. But for the case in the local court, one that was already decided, I think he was hoping for a different outcome. Do you think that Tom Robinson would have been acquitted in an appeal?
Sabrina wrote: "Lenore wrote: Actually, Atticus remains hopeful despite the jury verdict. He says he thinks they have a good chance on appeal.
Definitely, Lenore. But for the case in the local court, one that wa..."
Sabrina, sadly, no. In the South in those days, a black man who killed a white or "disrespected" a white woman was pretty much dead (whether guilty or not). I think Atticus is trying to give Tom hope, but neither one of them really believes it.
Definitely, Lenore. But for the case in the local court, one that wa..."
Sabrina, sadly, no. In the South in those days, a black man who killed a white or "disrespected" a white woman was pretty much dead (whether guilty or not). I think Atticus is trying to give Tom hope, but neither one of them really believes it.

Diane, I can understand why you would take Atticus as a role model - he is the perfect image of the just man, and is also kind, understanding, and accessible. The perfect father, too - but somehow he is very real, not so idealized as to seem impossible.

Can't wait now though to start my ebook copy. Must jump in immediately about one topic that's come up, if that's ok. The Watermelon Joke, see Laurie's link. It fits in, small and yesterday as it is, to that running question here (see Carolyn's first comment): has society changed since Atticus' time (1930s) when it comes to the presence of racism?
So a fellow author (white) makes a (sounds racist) comment right after another author (black) has just won a book award, a comment that bothers her, and other people too. How does this kind of thing happen? I keep going around on this, and that started before I read Laurie's comment. There are no simple answers to that little question or to the big one in Paragraph 2. But I'm sure not going to be my old idealistic college self when I read TKAM this second time.
Merrily wrote: Sabrina, sadly, no. In the South in those days, a black man who killed a white or "disrespected" a white woman was pretty much dead (whether guilty or not). I think Atticus is trying to give Tom hope, but neither one of them really believes it.
I was afraid of that, Merrily. The atmosphere of TKAM is so vibrant that you can smell and see everything Scout describes, but for me, the beauty of the landscape and life is tarnished by the injustice and inequality.
I was afraid of that, Merrily. The atmosphere of TKAM is so vibrant that you can smell and see everything Scout describes, but for me, the beauty of the landscape and life is tarnished by the injustice and inequality.
Diane wrote: Atticus Finch will always represent to me a man who stands and lives by his principles and beliefs. It resonated with me and made me try to always see and treat everyone as equals, with courtesy and respect.
That is lovely, Diane. Look forward to your comments too.
On the subject of Atticus Finch. It seems that many readers feel that he is 'too good to be true'... how does everyone here feel about that statement?
That is lovely, Diane. Look forward to your comments too.
On the subject of Atticus Finch. It seems that many readers feel that he is 'too good to be true'... how does everyone here feel about that statement?
Linda wrote: "A great book and a great group! When I saw TKAM coming up, I knew I didn't want to miss this discussion. Haven't read this book since the early Sixties so it's high time I reread it.
Can't wait no..."
Look forward to your insights after your reread, Linda. Carolyn's question is indeed a complex one.
Can't wait no..."
Look forward to your insights after your reread, Linda. Carolyn's question is indeed a complex one.


I have shown the movie in class and to youth and campus ministry groups for many years. I teach theology not English, so I use it in my morality unit. I would prefer to read the novel with students, but I have always had to deal with the pressures of a curriculum schedule that didn't have the time to do that.
I would like to recommend watching HEY BOO on DVD or streaming it. I found a link at pbs but I am not sure that it is the film that I rented at the library, which was, if I recall correctly, people speaking about the impact of the book on their own lives and American culture. I haven't watched it recently but I remember liking it when TKAM was the ONE BOOK, maybe even the first ONE BOOK chosen to be read for the whole country. That was a library promotion for summer reading.
This may be the link to the American Masters version of the DVD that I watched. I watched a little of it a few minutes ago but it froze my screen so I can't be sure.
http://video.pbs.org/video/2194593065/
I know that this is the book that has grown with me as I have aged and seen our culture change from year to year. It is a diamond, with so many cuts and facets to be explored that each is a world in itself.
I know that as I have grown up, Scout was who I was and Atticus was the person that I most wanted to become. The scene in front of the jail at night may be my favorite. I have asked groups who they are most like in that scene and who they wish they were. The answers are always interesting.
In response to the issue about racism in our culture, I think its face has shifted and is insidious in a new way. After the initial events in Ferguson, PBS suggested that we tweet 6 words in response. I did that and have had white supremacists posting in my twitter feed ever since, directing increasing anger when I refuse to respond. They are positive that I am black and there is no picture of me on my twitter feed. They use Twitter as their version of a KKK hood and gown. I allow them free reign. They show ugliness in its purest form and I always feel that is better when it is revealed to be what it truly is.
Teresa wrote: "TKAM is my all time favorite book and movie. It was the first VHS tape that I bought and the first movie that I purchased to stream again and again. I have the Sissy Spacek CD set. I think that I h..."
What a very moving tribute to a great book, Teresa. Your statement really makes us think about how a book can affect us and shape our entire lives. The power of the pen is not exaggerated! As to racism on and off the internet, it appears a sad fact of life that there are hateful people out there in the world always, for whatever reason. If they don't hate a person because of his/her color, they choose religion, or gender, or sexual orientation, or politics...anything to give voice to the twisted spirit inside them. It's sad but it seems a part of the human condition.
Any kindness we can do for others is one way of offsetting these idiots.
What a very moving tribute to a great book, Teresa. Your statement really makes us think about how a book can affect us and shape our entire lives. The power of the pen is not exaggerated! As to racism on and off the internet, it appears a sad fact of life that there are hateful people out there in the world always, for whatever reason. If they don't hate a person because of his/her color, they choose religion, or gender, or sexual orientation, or politics...anything to give voice to the twisted spirit inside them. It's sad but it seems a part of the human condition.
Any kindness we can do for others is one way of offsetting these idiots.
[Sorry, we interrupt this discussion for a special ANNOUNCEMENT: just for VBC members, Random House will be giving away TEN copies of the Dreaming Spies ARC. The winners will be randomly chosen, from those who sign up here:
http://www.rafflecopter.com/rafl/disp...
This is one contest I'll ask you please NOT to spread the word about, outside the VBC: there will be other opportunities for winning ARCs Out There, and we want to keep these ten copies for ourselves. After all, the winners might pass their ARC on to you when they're finished!
Good luck, and I hope you all (whether or not you win a copy) enjoy the book.
Now, back to the discussion of To Kill A Mockingbird…]
http://www.rafflecopter.com/rafl/disp...
This is one contest I'll ask you please NOT to spread the word about, outside the VBC: there will be other opportunities for winning ARCs Out There, and we want to keep these ten copies for ourselves. After all, the winners might pass their ARC on to you when they're finished!
Good luck, and I hope you all (whether or not you win a copy) enjoy the book.
Now, back to the discussion of To Kill A Mockingbird…]

Taking us slightly off-topic here, but because criminal procedure comes up in a lot of mysteries, I think I should explain something about appeals in common law countries (the US, the UK, Commonwealth countries). No one is ever acquitted in an appeal. The appellate court reviews the conviction in the lower court for errors of law that might have affected the outcome in that court. Examples are errors of the police that violated the defendant's rights (e.g., searches without warrants, coerced confessions) or errors of the judge which might have tainted the jury's decision (e.g., permitting the introduction of evidence that should have been excluded for some reason or giving an erroneous jury instruction). Appellate courts do not re-evaluate the facts. If the appellate court finds a material error of law, it reverses the decision of the lower court and remands to the lower court for proceedings consistent with the appellate court findings. In criminal matters, this generally means a new trial, although where the prosecution determines that it cannot successfully re-try the case if the appellate court's instructions are followed (for example, if critical evidence must be excluded) or if important witnesses have become unavailable, prosecutors can drop the case.
My recollection of the movie, which I saw fairly recently, is that I spotted errors of law which could have resulted in a new trial. (I confess that I have not actually started my re-read of the book yet.) Because appellate decisions affect future cases involving whites as well as blacks, appellate courts have always been less likely than trial courts to permit gross miscarriages of justice (although not entirely unlikely to permit them). And on a re-trial, several years down the pike (because appeals are not quick), Mayella might be unavailable to testify, or her father might not be available to coerce her and the testimony might come out differently -- so even in a racist town in that time, an appeal could in fact have had a positive result.
Sabrina wrote: "Very true, Kathy. I have mixed emotions about Mayella. On one hand, she was stuck in a miserable situation with an abusive father, and on the other hand... her situation was no excuse to condemn a man to hang. "
That's how I felt too. I always struggle with situations like these, though. I'd like to believe that if it were me I would behave differently, but you never really know.
One more element, though, is Mayella's prejudice. Despite the fact that she's had a pretty miserable life and that she and her family are looked down upon by practically the entire county, and Tom was the only person who was nice to her, she still holds herself above Tom because she's white and he's black.
That's how I felt too. I always struggle with situations like these, though. I'd like to believe that if it were me I would behave differently, but you never really know.
One more element, though, is Mayella's prejudice. Despite the fact that she's had a pretty miserable life and that she and her family are looked down upon by practically the entire county, and Tom was the only person who was nice to her, she still holds herself above Tom because she's white and he's black.
Linda wrote: "has society changed since Atticus' time (1930s) when it comes to the presence of racism?"
My idealistic self would very much like to say "of course we have!" But recent events rather shake my convictions there. I have noticed an upsurge in anti-racism commentary and discussion and protests, lately, though. So I think we're at least moving in a better direction than they were in Atticus' time.
My idealistic self would very much like to say "of course we have!" But recent events rather shake my convictions there. I have noticed an upsurge in anti-racism commentary and discussion and protests, lately, though. So I think we're at least moving in a better direction than they were in Atticus' time.

Thanks So Much. I entered right away. My daughter and I are big Russell fans. Russell was such a great role model for my teen girl. Hannah and I are excitedly waiting for the new book. I'm crossing my fingers for a special copy heading our way soon. :)
Kathy wrote: "In answer to your question about how we feel concerning the statement that Atticus is too good to be true, I think that he is a rare exception to that statement. Atticus is the real deal, a person..."
I felt the same way, Kathy.
I felt the same way, Kathy.
Teresa wrote They use Twitter as their version of a KKK hood and gown. I allow them free reign. They show ugliness in its purest form and I always feel that is better when it is revealed to be what it truly is.
That is horrible, Teresa, but very insightful. Sorry you are going through that. The internet can be particularly vile. I constantly read articles of woman bloggers who end up having to close down Twitter accounts, etc, due to harassment.
Anonymity really plays into the mob mentality. And reminds me of the scene where Atticus is defending Tom Robinson in front of the jail. And the subsequent explanation he gave to his children about how 'a mob is always made up of people'.
That is horrible, Teresa, but very insightful. Sorry you are going through that. The internet can be particularly vile. I constantly read articles of woman bloggers who end up having to close down Twitter accounts, etc, due to harassment.
Anonymity really plays into the mob mentality. And reminds me of the scene where Atticus is defending Tom Robinson in front of the jail. And the subsequent explanation he gave to his children about how 'a mob is always made up of people'.
Lenore wrote: "Sabrina wrote: "...Do you think that Tom Robinson would have been acquitted in an appeal? ..."
Taking us slightly off-topic here, but because criminal procedure comes up in a lot of mysteries, I t..."
Thanks for the clarification, Lenore! I know so little details about the legal system. One of the big errors would probably have been that there was no doctors report for Mayella, then? But given the time and place... that kind of leads me to think that none of that would have mattered either. Or the retrial would have had the same outcome.
Taking us slightly off-topic here, but because criminal procedure comes up in a lot of mysteries, I t..."
Thanks for the clarification, Lenore! I know so little details about the legal system. One of the big errors would probably have been that there was no doctors report for Mayella, then? But given the time and place... that kind of leads me to think that none of that would have mattered either. Or the retrial would have had the same outcome.
Merrily wrote: The power of the pen is not exaggerated! As to racism on and off the internet, it appears a sad fact of life that there are hateful people out there in the world always, for whatever reason.
That is so true, Merrily. Whenever my kids run into issues at school, I always remind them that even if they were exactly like the other kids in their class... some kids would still find something to dislike about them.
Your comment about hateful people reminds me of something a good friend of ours said. He was raised in Louisiana. He's in his early 60s now. His stories of growing up with his friends, Squeeza, Reesy, Stanka, and Pig Booty (yes that was their official nicknames), are usually hilarious, but one time, he told us how he was swimming in a pond and was shot at by a man with a shotgun. The man was KKK. Our friend is black. This led to a conversation on racism and he said something that really stuck with me.
"If you go around looking for racism, then you will find it everywhere, but when you stop looking, then it just becomes a few miserable people being angry."
That is so true, Merrily. Whenever my kids run into issues at school, I always remind them that even if they were exactly like the other kids in their class... some kids would still find something to dislike about them.
Your comment about hateful people reminds me of something a good friend of ours said. He was raised in Louisiana. He's in his early 60s now. His stories of growing up with his friends, Squeeza, Reesy, Stanka, and Pig Booty (yes that was their official nicknames), are usually hilarious, but one time, he told us how he was swimming in a pond and was shot at by a man with a shotgun. The man was KKK. Our friend is black. This led to a conversation on racism and he said something that really stuck with me.
"If you go around looking for racism, then you will find it everywhere, but when you stop looking, then it just becomes a few miserable people being angry."
Erin wrote: and Tom was the only person who was nice to her, she still holds herself above Tom because she's white and he's black.
That's a good point, Erin. Mayella didn't see Tom as a kind man, but as a lesser person who was there for her... amusement (I can't think of a better word at the moment). She set him up, tricked him, and then basically assaulted him.
I could not help but think of the Biblical account of Joseph and Potiphar's wife during this scene.
That's a good point, Erin. Mayella didn't see Tom as a kind man, but as a lesser person who was there for her... amusement (I can't think of a better word at the moment). She set him up, tricked him, and then basically assaulted him.
I could not help but think of the Biblical account of Joseph and Potiphar's wife during this scene.
Sabrina wrote: "Erin wrote: and Tom was the only person who was nice to her, she still holds herself above Tom because she's white and he's black.
That's a good point, Erin. Mayella didn't see Tom as a kind man,..."
Very good comment, Sabrina. I do think there was an element in the South at that time (and in other places at well) that found people of color a convenient outlet because they were the only group that poor whites could feel superior to and dominate. Mayella and her father are good examples of this as they would have been looked down upon and rejected by the "better class" of whites. The irony is that white fear and loathing of blacks was so great that when it came to a case like Tom's, the educated and wealthier whites would STILL support Tom and Mayella rather than to be seen to favor a black man.
TKM takes place before I was born, but I am old enough to remember a very segregated South. My parents and I were living temporarily in a small town in South Carolina when the ruling on Brown vs. the Board of Education was announced. My mother and I (I was nine) were in a small restaurant and present when the owner announced to all present that "if the law forced him serve (blacks), he'd do it, but then he'd break the dishes they'd eaten off." My mother was horrified but afraid to say anything (I suppose Atticus would have). But I've never forgotten that. However bad things are now, at least that world is gone!
That's a good point, Erin. Mayella didn't see Tom as a kind man,..."
Very good comment, Sabrina. I do think there was an element in the South at that time (and in other places at well) that found people of color a convenient outlet because they were the only group that poor whites could feel superior to and dominate. Mayella and her father are good examples of this as they would have been looked down upon and rejected by the "better class" of whites. The irony is that white fear and loathing of blacks was so great that when it came to a case like Tom's, the educated and wealthier whites would STILL support Tom and Mayella rather than to be seen to favor a black man.
TKM takes place before I was born, but I am old enough to remember a very segregated South. My parents and I were living temporarily in a small town in South Carolina when the ruling on Brown vs. the Board of Education was announced. My mother and I (I was nine) were in a small restaurant and present when the owner announced to all present that "if the law forced him serve (blacks), he'd do it, but then he'd break the dishes they'd eaten off." My mother was horrified but afraid to say anything (I suppose Atticus would have). But I've never forgotten that. However bad things are now, at least that world is gone!

Not necessarily. A problem that exists today in rape cases is that there are not always doctor's reports -- which require victims to see a doctor, before bathing, and relatively soon. A doctor's report is just a piece of evidence, not required, but obviously very helpful to the jury if it exists. A jury's decision depends on whether the totality of the evidence convinces the members to vote one way or another (and yes, that includes their biases which contribute to the way in which they view the evidence).
And, by the way, I think your analogy to Joseph and Potiphar's wife is very good!

As an appellate attorney (though my period of practice started well after this story's setting, and not in the South) I mostly concur with what Lenore said. No reasonable jury could have found Tom guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, and a court of appeals might well be reluctant to set a precedent that could be cited in the future to hurt less disfavored defendants. However, I think it likely that an outright reversal, rather than a reversal with remand for a new trial, would follow where the evidence was insufficient to support a guilty verdict.

Such a great discussion going on here! I'm looking forward to a reread and joining in.

Both of my children enjoyed the story in high school as I did.
Having read it several times as an adult, while I feel it is a good book for teens to read, I think it is written for adults and is meant to be understood at an adult age. So many of the topics in the story teens don't really understand. There is a good deal of life experience needed to really comprehend the tragedies in TKAM.
I have lived North of the Mason Dixon line for 35+ years but still see myself as a product of the south. I value much of my heritage andI cringe at the racism I see when visiting my family. Much has changed for the better but much racism is hidden behind closed doors.
However bad things are now, at least that world is gone!
That's true, Merrily! The world still have a long way to go though. Unfortunately, prejudice comes in so many different forms. It seems that no matter where you are... some people want to find some reason, any reason, to hate others so they'll feel better about themselves.
Things are kept relatively in check due to laws in America, but I think of how prejudices escalate in other parts of the world, like during the Rwanda genocide, or India's current issues with the 'Untouchables' caste.
And then you have really ridiculous prejudices (which really, aren't they all?). I remember my grandma telling me how her family was looked down on because they lived on the flat lands of the Bay Area, while the other families lived in the hills.
That's true, Merrily! The world still have a long way to go though. Unfortunately, prejudice comes in so many different forms. It seems that no matter where you are... some people want to find some reason, any reason, to hate others so they'll feel better about themselves.
Things are kept relatively in check due to laws in America, but I think of how prejudices escalate in other parts of the world, like during the Rwanda genocide, or India's current issues with the 'Untouchables' caste.
And then you have really ridiculous prejudices (which really, aren't they all?). I remember my grandma telling me how her family was looked down on because they lived on the flat lands of the Bay Area, while the other families lived in the hills.
Lenore wrote: Not necessarily. A problem that exists today in rape cases is that there are not always doctor's reports -- which require victims to see a doctor, before bathing, and relatively soon.
That's an interesting point, Lenore. It made me consider how this same case would have went over in today's court. Both rape and race continue to be sensitive subjects.
That's an interesting point, Lenore. It made me consider how this same case would have went over in today's court. Both rape and race continue to be sensitive subjects.
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Books mentioned in this topic
Devil in the Grove: Thurgood Marshall, the Groveland Boys, and the Dawn of a New America (other topics)To Kill a Mockingbird (other topics)
To Kill A Mockingbird was published in 1960 by Harper Lee and was an instant success, winning the Pulitzer Prize for fiction in 1961. To Kill a Mockingbird is one of the most challenged (attempted banning) classics of all time and still ranks at number 21 of the 100 most frequently challenged books of 2000–2009. And yet, In 2006, British librarians said that Mockingbird is one book that “every adult should read before they die.”
Compassionate, dramatic, and deeply moving, To Kill A Mockingbird takes readers to the roots of human behavior - to innocence and experience, kindness and cruelty, love and hatred, humor and pathos.
I read this for the first time in honor of Banned Book Week in September, and was completely blown away by it. This is storytelling at its absolute best, delving into the darkest aspects of humanity with a gentle touch that left me with a feeling of hope.
Do you agree with British librarians: Is this a book that every adult should read before they die?
And as a book that seemed to touch all the tender spots: How did it personally affect you?