2020 1st Q Red and the Black - Host Jamie

[Kristel]

Fist Quarter Read: The Red and the Black by Stendhal.

[Jamie]

We start reading this book in just a few days, so here are some notes and questions to get us started.

Wikipedia- The Red and the Black " is a historical psychological novel in two volumes by Stendhal, published in 1830. It chronicles the attempts of a provincial young man to rise socially beyond his modest upbringing through a combination of talent, hard work, deception, and hypocrisy. He ultimately allows his passions to betray him."

"The Red and the Black uses third-person omniscient narration, and the story is told by an intrusive narrator who remains very close to the characters, often expressing opinions or hinting at alternative scenarios and frequently addressing the reader. Yet he sometimes refuses to comment on particularly dramatic scenes, leaving the reader without resolution. The narrator also shares the characters' varying and contradictory feelings and motives, which sometimes shift from moment to moment. This approach supports the idea that people are a collection of selves." (https://www.coursehero.com/lit/The-Re...)


Questions to ponder while reading:
1. What does the title refer to? One possibility is that red = secular and black = clerical, another is that red = passion and black = reason. In the musical Les Miserables the French government and 'the establishment' is 'black'(Black the dark of ages past!), and the rebels are 'red'(Red, the blood of angry men!).
2. Reading has its place in this novel. The characters are influenced by what they read (Memorial of St. Helena, Rousseau’s Confessions, Manon Lescaut, La Nouvelle Héloïse, Letters of a Portuguese Nun, etc.). "The narrator blames [bookishness] for destroying the “freedom of spirit” necessary for sincere love, but he also takes great delight in the absurdities generated when characters are playing parts in separate dramas." (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/bo...) Are Julien and the other readers in this story falling into scripted roles as a result of their reading? Do we as readers also tend to absorb scripts from novels as we read? Would Julien be a different person without all the books he read?
3. We get the story in this novel from Julien's perspective, more or less. Who are the women in this story? What are their stories, from their perspectives?
4. Who is Julien? Do you like him? If you met him on a bus would you like him? Does he remind you of anyone you've met?
5. What other books does this novel remind you of as you read?
6. Do you like the narrator? Do you trust the narrator?
7. What does this novel have to say about love? about war? about religion/the Church?

Part 2
For month #2 of our first quarter...

1. What does Stendhal say about love in this novel? Is love real, or an illusion, or something else entirely?

2. Pretend you are the director for a new, unlimited budget film of The Red and the Black, and you even get a time machine so you can use actors who are now dead, or younger versions of living actors. Plan out your cast for your film version of this book.

Also, in your film, are you telling a romantic story, a historical drama, a satire, etc.? What elements of this story are the most important for your portrayal of this novel, and why?

Part 3
1. How does The Red and the Black compare with the other List books you have read recently? Does everyone really need to read this novel? Why?
2. You have been roped into teaching a college summer course on The Red and the Black plus 3 other novels of your choosing. Your goal is to put The Red and the Black in context somehow. What other books will you be assigning for your course, and why?
3. Since your casting efforts were so successful, you've been offered millions to rewrite the script to change the setting in some way (modern times, different place, etc.). First, will you accept this challenge (and the millions) and modify the film version of this book so drastically? Second, what new setting will you be using, and will this require any significant plot changes? Will you be using a completely different cast, or can you earlier cast work just as well in your new version of this story?

[Gail]

Jamie, do you care how much we read per month? It isn't as long as some quarterly reads, should we just go at our own pace?

[Jamie]

Gail wrote: "Jamie, do you care how much we read per month? It isn't as long as some quarterly reads, should we just go at our own pace?"

It is on the short end of quarterly books, and not all editions are even over 600 pages long (my copy isn't). So yeah, read at your own pace. I'll post a few new discussion questions for February and March, so there'll be something to participate in each month, but definitely read at your own pace.

[Kelly_Hunsaker_reads]

I prefer to read one book start to finish, so I will likely do that.

[Kelly_Hunsaker_reads]

Meaning I read only one book at a time.

[Gail]

I am well into this book but not yet half way.
The book has not yet mentioned the colors in the title but I can imagine that it does reflect reason versus emotion and/or the various class distinctions as reflected in their political views.

2. Reading has its place in this novel. The characters are influenced by what they read (Memorial of St. Helena, Rousseau’s Confessions, Manon Lescaut, La Nouvelle Héloïse, Letters of a Portuguese Nun, etc.). "The narrator blames [bookishness] for destroying the “freedom of spirit” necessary for sincere love, but he also takes great delight in the absurdities generated when characters are playing parts in separate dramas." (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/bo...) Are Julien and the other readers in this story falling into scripted roles as a result of their reading? Do we as readers also tend to absorb scripts from novels as we read? Would Julien be a different person without all the books he read?

In the beginning, Julien always appears to be playing a part and his judgement about that part often seems to have a foundation in the reading he has done. He wants to be brave and bold (Napoleon) and at the same time he wants to make his way in the world. He sees himself as heroic for doing simple acts that reflect common decency and likes to be the center of attention. Over the course of the first part of the book he is gaining some insights into women (not just female characters in books) and also the motivations of men with money.

3. We get the story in this novel from Julien's perspective, more or less. Who are the women in this story? What are their stories, from their perspectives?

The main female characters appear to be a bit of a caricature. Mme de Renal seems to swing back and forth from being a practical and loving mother and intelligent, though uneducated in the ways of the world, to being downright silly in her approach to extramarital love. Her good friend seems more fully drawn as a real person.

4. Who is Julien? Do you like him? If you met him on a bus would you like him? Does he remind you of anyone you've met?

He isn't particularly likable as he is presented by the narrator but nevertheless, I think I would like him if I met him on a bus. When he goes into a cafe (bar) for the first time he projects innocence and youthful energy and those would be attractive characteristics. Of course when minutes later he swells up with masculine pride he becomes less attractive. He does remind me of people I used to know, i.e. young people who were trying on different roles in order to better understand their place in the world.

6. Do you like the narrator? Do you trust the narrator?
1001 books have taught me to never trust a narrator but in general, I think we are meant to trust the narrator of this book.

[Pip]

1. I prefer the translation of the title as "The Scarlet and the Black" and scarlet is associated with army uniforms. Black is associated with clerical garb, so one could say the title represents the army and the church. These are the career choices that Julian Sorel pursues.
2. Julian idolises Napolean and after reading a biography believes his career can have a similar trajectory. He reads so much that his exasperated father throws his copy in the river. He lives by playing a part which he imagines from his reading. Mathilde loves reading history and deplores modern men as being inferior to historical characters. She acts as she believes she should, from what she has read, rather than what she actually feels. She demands keeping Julian's head in imitation of Queen Marguerite of Navarre. I don't believe that I imitate behaviours I have read about. At least not since I imitated Holden Caulfield at the age of seventeen! If Julien had not read so much I doubt that he would have been so ambitious. He may have even been oblivious to the hypocrisy he saw all around him.
3. Julien's POV is prominent, but Stendahl inserts himself from time to time to question his characters' motives. The two prominent women are Julien's two lovers. His motivation in seducing them is political advancement rather that passionate love. And, particularly in the case of Mathilde, he schemes to make them fall in love with him. Both women are strong characters in their own right, and treated sympathetically, unusual in 1830.
4. Julien is a romantic hero, but a flawed one, whose ambition overuns his integrity, which makes him an intriguing protagonist. I don't think I have ever met anyone with his adoration of Napolean, which was a dangerous passion at the time, but I have met good looking young men who have indulged in ill advised love affairs for advancement! I would probably have fallen for him too!
5. I am not sure if there are simiilar novels that I have read - maybe A Tale of Two Cities, but it is so long ago that I read and adored that book, that I cannot be sure.
6.I liked how the narrator was able to convey the political issues of 1830 France almost painlessly into the story, but there were times when the narrator was seen to be unreliable. I did not note these as I read.

[Jessica]

I am aiming to start this book in February. Currently bogged down with trying to finish my January pile. :)

[Kristel]

I like Pip's answer for the title but I also read in one of the posts on line that the Roulette wheel is also Red and Black. Julien could go either way; soldier or priest.

The narrator is 3rd person. He is very close to the action all the time, making his own commentaries. He is also most like Julien. Of course our narrator is the Stendhal. IMHO.

I thought it was interesting that Stendhal considered himself as a scientist of love. And that this book explores passionate love, physical love, vanity love and stylish love. It also explores marriage and sex. Julien is awkward and his first affair is with a woman who really is quite happy in her marriage but very naive as well.

[Kristel]

I finished this today. It was a short quarterly read.

The Title of course the title is Le Rouge et le noir (The Red and the Black) and I agree that this is referring to Julien's decisions to go in to the priesthood or into the military. It also can be r/t the Roulette Wheel and which way will things go for Julien.

2.Are Julien and the other readers in this story falling into scripted roles as a result of their reading? Do we as readers also tend to absorb scripts from novels as we read? Would Julien be a different person without all the books he read?

Julien of course is reading Memorial de Sainte Helene: Journal of the Private Life and Conversations of the Emperor Napoleon at Saint Helena, he idolizes Napoleon. I confess that I really didn't pay attention to what people were reading so much. I was not impressed with Julien actually being learned. He seems to be more manipulative, giving answers others wanted to hear rather than having a clear understanding of what he himself thought.

Do we as readers tend to absorb scripts when reading novels; I don't think I do now but maybe as a younger reader that would be more probable.

3. We get the story in this novel from Julien's perspective, more or less. Who are the women in this story? What are their stories, from their perspectives? We actually are getting the story from an unnamed narrator who seems most closely aligned with Julien and who gives the reader a running commentary about what Julien is up to. The women are;
Madame de Re'nal who I found to be happy with her marriage, not looking for something outside of her children and husband and who is manipulated by Julien into a love affair that never even occurred to her. I think she was led astray on what love is by a young boy who knew nothing of love. And I do not feel that passion is the same as love. Our author viewed himself a scientific expert of love.
Madame de Fervaque : Julien uses her to make the other jealous. "not the constitutionally bilious type, simply swept into vengeance. Yet if, all the same, she likes doing harm, it's because she's unhappy. I suspect some inner misery. Might she be a moral prude who's weary of her profession?" (2.25.15) Julien doesn't stick with this one.
Mademoiselle de La Mole (Mathilde): Julien really meets his match in this woman. She has some mistaken notions of love but for her, when she finds the "chase" she is intrigued cause most men fall for her and when she catches that man, she loses interest.

4. Who is Julien? Do you like him? If you met him on a bus would you like him? Does he remind you of anyone you've met? Julien is a "lazy" son of a sawmill owner (carpenter) and he aspires to be either a priest or a soldier. Opportunities fortuitously arise and Julien uses them to climb socially. I did not like him from a reader perspective because I am aware of his nature. I can see that he must have been good looking for women to be taken in by him. I don't know if I have ever met anyone that is such a complete cad as Julien.

5. What other books does this novel remind you of as you read? I kept thinking that Julien reminded me a bit of Jesus in the Bible. I know that sounds silly and it is. Jesus did not go around seducing women but Julien is a son of a carpenter. He ends up being taken prisoner, in his trial he as "women who are there" and do not leave as Jesus had women at the foot of the cross, and Julien was killed for his actions.
But the book is mostly about hyprocrisy.

6. Do you like the narrator? Do you trust the narrator? I think the narrator is our author and I think as far as trusting him, I don't. But I think our author felt that he was an expert on love and that he also was an expert on France, the military, religion so I think he would say he is trustworthy even if his characters were not.

7. What does this novel have to say about love? about war? about religion/the Church?

Love: The author reportedly considered himself a scientist of love; passion, physical, vanity and stylish. Do you agree? I do not think he was an expert on love. But he certainly did explore passion, physical, vanity and stylish displays in the book. He created many triangles but the main one would be Julien, Madame de Re'nal, and Mathilde.

Religion: The book is set in post reformation France. During the reformation, France was divided with French Huguenots (Protestants) who left the Church of Rome. Curé Chélan and Abbé Pirard are religious men with integrity, the first is removed from his position and the second is surrounded by enemies, persecuted for his Jansenism. Like Pope Adrian VI, they are incapable of blocking the deterioration of the Church, and remain only a negation of it. Julien is not a believer but still sees a career in the church as viable option.

War:
The French people had no established rights and the king had all the power over government, economy, and the church. Catherine de Medicis is mentioned int he book, as well as Napoleon, or a recollection of Robespierre. So it is a historical novel as well as a satirical novel.

[Jamie]

For month #2 of our first quarter...

1. What does Stendhal say about love in this novel? Is love real, or an illusion, or something else entirely?

2. Pretend you are the director for a new, unlimited budget film of The Red and the Black, and you even get a time machine so you can use actors who are now dead, or younger versions of living actors. Plan out your cast for your film version of this book.

Also, in your film, are you telling a romantic story, a historical drama, a satire, etc.? What elements of this story are the most important for your portrayal of this novel, and why?

[Kristel]

I read that Stendhal viewed himself as a scientist of love. He felt there were several types of love; passion, vanity, physical, and stylish. My impressions when reading this is that he knew very little about love that was truly agape love. His ideas of love were more on the physical and manipulative side and I guess I don't see that as love cause the motivation in self fulfillment.

I am not one to watch a lot of movies and I know hardly anything about actors. But I look forward to how others might cast this book. Good discussion question.

[Pip]

Part 2
1. Love is temporary and anything but steadfast in this book. Sorel falls in love with Mme de Renal more in order to further his importance in the household than any inevitable passion, then he falls out of love with her and in love with Mathilde, again for reasons of ambition. Then he changes his mind with disastrous and fatal results, and Mathilde who has fallen out of love with him changes her mind and caresses his severed head.
2. Julian Sorel the young Dirk Bogarde (this ages me!)
Mme de Renal Renee Zwellweger ( to be contemporary)
Mme Derville Scarlett Johansson (ditto)
Abbe Chelan Anthony Hopkins
Abbe Maslon Jonathan Pryce (I know, not very original, The Two Popes)
Old Sorel Kirk Douglas
Fouque a young Richard Burton
Marquis de la Mole Robert de Niro
Mathilde de la Mole Jennifer Lawrence a la Silver Linings laybook
Mme de la Mole Helen Mirren could play the ignorant, uptight woman brilliantly
Mme de Fevaques Claire Foy
Altamira Javier Bardem
Bishop Agde Jude Law
This is too much fun! I would concentrate on the satire, emphasising Julian Sorel's early idealism and Napoleon worship, his willingness to compromise to further his ambition and the hypocrisy of society at the time.

[Gail]

Wow, all star cast Pip.
It should be directed by Greta Gerwig

[Pip]

Now that's a thought! I have yet to see Little Women

[Jamie]

Pip wrote: "Part 2
1. Love is temporary and anything but steadfast in this book. Sorel falls in love with Mme de Renal more in order to further his importance in the household than any inevitable passion, then..."

Dirk Bogarde was pretty dreamy :) I watched a bunch of his films on youtube last year. I could definitely see him as Julien.

[Jamie]

1. What does the title refer to? I am leaning towards civilized society as black and passionate recklessness as red, but I suppose black as the Church and red as society works too. I'm thinking the title was tacked on as something that could sell the book better, and maybe it is not anything more than marketing.
2. Are Julien and the other readers in this story falling into scripted roles as a result of their reading? Do we as readers also tend to absorb scripts from novels as we read? Would Julien be a different person without all the books he read? If only Julien and Madame Renal and Mathilde all read lots of novels, they might all have been better off. As it was, they read books and were strongly influenced by them, but they were so naive in their reading that their lives ended up a mess. Julien and Mathilde most definitely were trying to follow scripts. I hope I don't let books govern my life that much, but I know when I find myself in new situations I do think of what my favorite characters did in similar situations in books. My sister definitely changes her habits and goals based on the latest novels she is reading.
3. We get the story in this novel from Julien's perspective, more or less. Who are the women in this story? What are their stories, from their perspectives? The 3 primary female characters are Elisa, Madame Renal, and Mathilde. For Elisa this story is about a criminally minded young man she loved unrequitedly, who snubbed her enough that she felt justified in revealing his sordid secrets to his enemies. For Madame Renal this book tells of how she was victimized by a scheming young man she trusted. And for Mathilde this book is the story of a young man whose appearance in her life allowed her to play out a modern version of her favorite family dramas.
4. Who is Julien? Do you like him? If you met him on a bus would you like him? Does he remind you of anyone you've met? I really disliked Julien. He reminds me of punk kids who think as teenagers that they are badasses, scorned unfairly by a society that owes them far more than they can ever get without resorting to manipulating everyone else, who they see as inferior.

5. What other books does this novel remind you of as you read? This story reminded me quite a lot of The Count of Monte Cristo. Both stories show a man who turns into a manipulating creep, both involve doomed love, and in both the main character is drawn into political intrigue between France and Britain.
6. Do you like the narrator? Do you trust the narrator?I thought the narrator was annoying in his admiration of Julien, and that he was probably leaving out a lot that would have shown more clearly why so many people disliked Julien so much.
7. What does this novel have to say about love? about war? about religion/the Church? In this book love, war and religion seem to be just diversions, meaningless except as something to do. The men, during peacetime, get bored enough to fight duels on the slightest whim, just to be able to get back to shooting at each other, to feel some excitement again. Religion and its rituals also give structure and substance to otherwise dull days, and love is a game people play with each other with little regard for consequences.

[Jamie]

1. Stendahl may not be unique in his view of love, but it seems that his characters in this book mistake obsession and lust for love. They also adopt roles and act out being various sorts of tragic lovers, but with no real awareness of the person they 'love'. And for all the major characters, manipulation and power seem to be the point of their affairs. For all the romance going on in this novel, this is not a very romantic novel.

2. My cast so far:
Julien Sorel- Samuel Barnett (Dirk Gently)
Monsieur Renal- Jason Isaacs (Mr. Malfoy in Harry Potter)
Pere Sorel- Wallace Shawn (Vizzini in the Princess Bride)
Madame Renal- Iben Hjejle (Laura in High Fidelity)
Father Chelan- Brendan Gleeson (Alastor Moody in Harry Potter)
Monsieur Appert- Elijah Wood (Frodo, and Todd Brotzman in Dirk Gently)
Monsieur Valenod- Robbie Coltrane (Hagrid)
Elisa- Claudia Jessie (Kira Arlo in the Kerblam! episode of DrWho season 11)
Madame Derville- Anna Maxwell Martin (Suki Cantrell in the Long Game episode of DrWho season 1)
Fouque- Matt Smith (Dr. Who)
Father Maslon- Alfred Enoch (Dean Thomas in Harry Potter)
the Marquis de la Mole- Tyler Labine (Sherlock Hobbes in Dirk Gently)
King of ____ - Patrick Stuart (Jean Luc Picard)
Bishop of Agde- Sean Biggerstaff (Oliver Wood in Harry Potter)
Amanda Binet- Tanya Reynolds (Pearl Marston in Death in Paradise season 7 ep1)
Father Pirard- Miguel Sandoval (Col. Riggin in Dirk Gently)
Father Catanede- Bob Newhart (Judson in The Librarians)
Father Chas-Bernard- Jack Black
Bishop of Besancon- Bernard Hill (King Theodin in The Two Towers)
Madame de la Mole- Cate Blanchett (Galadriel in The Fellowship of the Ring)
Mathilde- Rachel Nichols (Nicole Noone in the Librarians)
Count Norbert- James McAvoy (Dan Foster in State of Play)
the Chevalier de Beauvoises - Tom Felton (Draco Malfoy in Harry Potter)

I made a pinterest board for my casting picks: https://www.pinterest.com/ravenmount/...

[Gail]

Love your Pinterest board Jamie....your version seems more like a fantasy romp that would walk a fine line between the darkly satirical and out and out funny....Or maybe that is just how I am imagining it because I would never have picked Tyler Labine for the Margquis, who I saw as more of a Jeremy Irons. I think your version would be better directed by a young Rob Reiner.
And, who knew that Patrick Stuart ever had hair?

[Jessica]

Alright, I am going to jump into this one. I have the audio version out from the library and will work my way through it anytime I am near a CD player. (feels so old fashioned!)

I am a few chapters in so far and I have to say that am finding it easy to digest, if you will. I am often wary of 19th century novels because I've found a few to be too dense.

I am looking forward to seeing where this goes and diving into this discussion.

[Kristel]

Jessica wrote: "Alright, I am going to jump into this one. I have the audio version out from the library and will work my way through it anytime I am near a CD player. (feels so old fashioned!)

I am a few chapte..."

It is not a difficult read. Looking forward to your impression and wishing you luck with the old fashioned CD player. I can't even imagine.

[Jessica]

Kristel wrote: "Jessica wrote: "Alright, I am going to jump into this one. I have the audio version out from the library and will work my way through it anytime I am near a CD player. (feels so old fashioned!)

I..."

Ha! Thanks. I tried to find a digital audio copy in my library network, but no luck. So, I checked out the 15 disc version on CD. At least they aren't cassettes. ;)

[Kristel]

Jessica wrote: "Kristel wrote: "Jessica wrote: "Alright, I am going to jump into this one. I have the audio version out from the library and will work my way through it anytime I am near a CD player. (feels so old..."

I bought the audio from audible. Also had the book so I could do both.

[Gail]

1) Love -
The characters all seem to have a moment when they question what love is and then decide, for different reasons at different times, that they are in love because....they break out into sweat, their heart palpitates, they are willing to risk their honor etc. Mathilde in particular seems to be bored to tears by a very prescribed life and she is in love with being in love and the risks it brings. For someone who loves control, she is even more infatuated by loss of control and earmarks it love. It always appears to be something that they all question and then decide that, in fact, they are in love, which makes the reader question even more if any of them know what love is. Never is it about what would be best for the other person. Our author on the other hand, seems totally willing to mock all his characters and to signal that it is lust, ambition, hubris, jealousy that the world swirls around.

[Jamie]

1. How does The Red and the Black compare with the other List books you have read recently? Does everyone really need to read this novel? Why?
I was not thrilled with this novel, but so far most of the List books I've read this year have been less than stellar. Julien would fit in well with the characters in Houellebecq's The Elementary Particles, for sure, and he'd probably get along pretty well with the characters from The Blind Assassin too.
I'm not sure everyone needs to read this book, but I'd cut The Elementary Particles and The Blind Assassin before cutting The Red and the Black from my version of a 1001 list.

2. You have been roped into teaching a college summer course on The Red and the Black plus 3 other novels of your choosing. Your goal is to put The Red and the Black in context somehow. What other books will you be assigning for your course, and why?
Jamie's Summer Lit Course:
The Red and Black -themes: religion/tradition vs. secular life, romantic love, young man coming of age and finding his place in the world
The Art of Fielding, by Chad Harbach - coming of age story with male protagonist set in the US in modern times
Daniel Deronda - coming of age story with male protagonist, set in England
Tipping the Velvet, by Sarah Waters - coming of age story with female protagonist in England

My course will look at how people develop their adult identities, and the roles of chance, money, personality, etc. in shaping one's adult roles.

3. Since your casting efforts were so successful, you've been offered millions to rewrite the script to change the setting in some way (modern times, different place, etc.). First, will you accept this challenge (and the millions) and modify the film version of this book so drastically? Second, what new setting will you be using, and will this require any significant plot changes? Will you be using a completely different cast, or can you earlier cast work just as well in your new version of this story?
I definitely accept this challenge. My modified version will be set in modern-day Nigeria, so my cast will be completely new. Actually most of the storyline can stay the same in my new setting, though maybe the dueling in the book can be replaced with a lion hunt as a more likely thrill-seeking activity.
My cast:
Julien Sorel- Samuel Anderson
Monsieur Renal- Shamar Moore
Pere Sorel- Louis Gossett Jr.
Madame Renal- Diveen Henry
Father Chelan- Don Warrington
Monsieur Appert- Sule Rimi
Monsieur Valenod- Clint Dyer
Elisa- Jade Eshete
Madame Derville- Suzanne Packer
Fouque- Akemnji Ndifornyen
Father Maslon- Alfred Enoch (Dean Thomas in Harry Potter)
the Marquis de la Mole- Leemore Marrett Jr.
King of ____ - Steve Toissaint
Amanda Binet- Aude Legastelois
Father Pirard- Richie Campbell
Father Catanede- Danny John-Jules (Dwayne Myers in Death in Paradise)
Father Chas-Bernard- Levi Roots
Bishop of Besancon- Denzel Washington
Madame de la Mole- Ginny Holder
Mathilde- Josephine Jobert (Florence Cassell in Death in Paradise)
Count Norbert- Larenz Tate
the Chevalier de Beauvoises - Idris Elba

I added the pics I could find to my pinboard, too, but (surprise?) many of these mostly-black actors don't have lots of pics on pinterest the way the actors from my earlier mostly-white cast do. hmmm.

[Pip]

Part Three:
1. The Scarlet and the Black stands up well in comparison to other novels written in the middle of the nineteenth century. Its themes of ambition, hypocrisy, political satire, love and deceit seem quite topical! Stendhal was one of the first novelists to write interior monologues to explain his characters' motivations so it deserves it place on the List.
2. My summer course is entitled Ambition on the Nineteenth Century Novel and the other assigned reads are Frankenstein, Mary Shelley, Moby Dick, Herman Melville and Jude the Obscure, Thomas Hardy so I have the whole century covered.
3. I accept the challenge and the millions and make my movie in Australia with mostly Australian actors. Julian is an ambitious young man from the wrong side of the tracks whose hero is Bob Hawke. He wants to become a politician but gets chosen for the Australian Cricket team after making the daughter of the Chairman of Selectors pregnant. The wife of the politician, for whom he interned, threatens to reveal on Instagram that he had also seduced her. Julian pushes her off the cliffs at South Head in Sydney.
Julian Heath Ledger
His father, Geoffrey Rush
M. Renal Mel Gibson
Mme Renal Nicole Kidman
Father Chelan Jack Thompson
M. Valenod Bryan Brown
Elisa Abbie Cornish
Mme Derville Cate Blanchett
Fouque Chris Hemsworth
Father Maslon David Wenham
Marquis de la Mole Russell Crowe (actually a New Zealander)
Mme de la Mode Jackie Weaver
Mathilde Rose Byrne
Count Norbet Hugo Weaving
the Chevalier de Beauvoises Hugh Jackman
Bishop of Besancon Sam Neill (another Kiwi)

[Jessica]

I am about 75% in at this point. (CD #12! :p) I am not loving it, my feelings are somewhere in the 3 star region at this point. I will take a stab at some questions. (catching up with some part 1 & 2 questions)

PART 1
1. In my mind the red and the black could be a couple of things, the most obvious being black as the church and red as the military. The red could also stand for Julien's romantic entanglements whereas his career/societal ambitions are black.

2. It is great when characters in books love reading. I believe being so well-read definitely gave Julien more lofty ambitions than one born into his station would typically have. He thinks very highly of Napoleon. Julien has ideas about what a powerful person is supposed to be like. Julien likes that people perceive him (Julien) as learned which results in being a bit of a fault.

I personally don't absorb scripts from novels that I read. I connect more with some novels than others and they linger in my mind, but they don't usually impact my behavior.

3. The novel is told from a 3rd person perspective and closely follows Julien. The main females in this novel are the women that Julien has affairs with. Mme. de Renal is the mother of children that Julien is employed to tutor. Julien draws her into an affair with him and then schemes with her re: his escape when her husband is made aware of the possibility that they are having a relationship. Similarly Mathilde is related to his next employer. Mathilde however isn't as naively drawn in as Mme de Renal was... and this is about how far I've gotten in the book. :D

4. I am not liking Julien at all. He is very opportunistic and conniving. In a way he reminds me of young, smarmy, go-getters I've encountered in my professional life.

more later...

[Jamie]

Pip wrote: "Part Three:
1. The Scarlet and the Black stands up well in comparison to other novels written in the middle of the nineteenth century. Its themes of ambition, hypocrisy, political satire, love and ..."

Great adaptation. :) I could definitely see Julien as the sort of guy who would use social media to coerce or blackmail people.

[Gail]

I would definitely sign up to take Pip and Jamie's course and see Pip's and Jamie's movie!!
I would never sign up to teach a course. In particular, no one would want to take an English course from me. I would like to take a course that compared some of the other authors writing in the 1830's to The Red and The Black. The writing of Charles Dickens, Balzac, Shelley, Victor Hugo, Pushkin would be among those discussed. Perhaps throw in Bronte and Elliot to get some women although they wrote a bit later. The Red and The Black seems much more modern in some ways than any of the others and I would like to talk about the use of internal monologues.

[Gail]

Jamie wrote: "Pip wrote: "Part Three:
1. The Scarlet and the Black stands up well in comparison to other novels written in the middle of the nineteenth century. Its themes of ambition, hypocrisy, political satir..."

For Pip's great adaptation, I can imagine Mathilde using twitter to capture and share all her changes of emotions and the scandal that would cause.

[Jamie]

Gail wrote: "Jamie wrote: "Pip wrote: "Part Three:
1. The Scarlet and the Black stands up well in comparison to other novels written in the middle of the nineteenth century. Its themes of ambition, hypocrisy, p..."

Yeah, and maybe Mathilde posts a few drunken tweets one night that reveal that she is hardly an innocent victim, and that maybe Julien has fallen for her plotting just as much as she seems to have fallen for his. The tweets are taken down almost immediately, but not before some lurking follower has taken screencaps of the tweets. :)

[Jessica]

I finished the book and didn't love it, mostly because I had no love for Julian. :)

from the part 1 questions...

6. I didn't like the narrator, though I did like him more than I liked Julian. I didn't 100% trust the narrator. He seemed a little biased and haughty...thinking that he knew more than anyone else.

More later. Need to get lunch.

[[deleted user]]

Finished this one with a few days to spare, now I need to read my TBR book LOL or miss out again this month.

1. I like Pip's answer to this one the army or the clergy what a choice and that is what he is given.

2. I think Julian would have been a humbler person without his education and possibly less of a show off. The books he read as a young man were all meant to lead him into the religious life and to give him the best chance of advancement. He admits his reading has been narrow and when he expands I think he does have an image of himself as a romantic hero. He is also highly influenced by those around him as he lacks experience and confidence in real life. With the women he is playing a role he is not truly himself.

3. The women are his lovers we have Madame de Renal a married mother who had an arranged marriage and now feels that she has tasted real love through Julian's affections. She is also very religious and guilt over her conduct leave her torn between loving and hating Julian and wanting to save him and destroy him.

Mathilde is the daughter of a rich man (Julian's employer) and an heiress she is a socialite and is not interested in Julian until he uses the time honoured technique of treat them mean keep them keen in order to maintain her affections. From her point of view she is the seductress but she is also deserted in the end when Julian returns to his first great love.

4. Julien is a working class boy made good who destroys it all by his careless conduct. I did not like Julian I found him vain and superior acting which would probably come across when meeting on a bus when he would feel the need to show off how erudite he is.

5. The social commentary reminds me of Dicken's novels.

6. I have no feelings for the narrator but I do trust the commentary.

7. It seems to be saying that everything is bad if you ask me. Love leads to jealously, madness and murder. War is obviously bad. The members of the church are shown to be largely corrupt and self serving with much plotting occurring behind closed doors.