Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar by Simon Sebag Montefiore (or the Stalin biography of your choice) (April/May 2020)

[Roman Clodia]

Sorry, I'm guilty of chatting off-topic all the time! While I agree with your point about pollution levels and so on, it would be a huge shame to say we're never going to be able to experience the joys of travelling beyond our own local environment - not just the delights of different landscapes and sights but also the opportunity to engage with people from very different cultures and ways of life.

[Roman Clodia]

Nigeyb wrote: "I was reflecting on this book which, I think, does an amazing job at humanising Stalin by giving the reader so much domestic detail on his life. However, to what extent does this detract from the horrors of his regime?"

Interesting question! For me, the contrast between Stalin romping with the Bolshevik children, or his grief for his wife, or his obvious love for his daughter make the horrors even more terrifying: it's not the obviously monstrous people who can perpetrate such things. That sort of goes back to the issue of 'ordinary Germans' who helped enable the Holocaust: 'inhumanity' is actually such a central part of what humans are capable of.

The bit I was reading yesterday was about how some of Stalin's circle are disintegrating psychologically under the weight of what they're doing.

[Nigeyb]

Roman Clodia wrote: "it would be a huge shame to say we're never going to be able to experience the joys of travelling beyond our own local environment - not just the delights of different landscapes and sights but also the opportunity to engage with people from very different cultures and ways of life.

Absolutely. I wouldn't want to deny anyone the pleasure of travelling however it comes at a cost beyond the price tag. Including the broader environmental issues into decision making would only be a good thing. We cannot continue rampantly consuming whilst the planet is destroyed.

Talking of which I applaud your decision for the two of you to travel to France on a motorbike

[Nigeyb]

Roman Clodia wrote: "For me, the contrast between Stalin romping with the Bolshevik children, or his grief for his wife, or his obvious love for his daughter make the horrors even more terrifying"

Interesting. Thanks.

I must confess that many of the touching and unexpected little asides he reportedly said to colleagues and children made me think he's not so bad. At least until I remembered the death toll, the torture, or the depravity of the likes of Yezhov. It's all on such a monumental scale it's hard to comprehend.

[Roman Clodia]

You're right, the scale is difficult to absorb - but we see arguably similar kinds of inhumanity, albeit on a smaller scale, from people all the time: I am shocked, taking current politics, at the way some people can talk about migrants and refugees, dead children and people washed up on Mediterranean shores - while, presumably, loving their own families and children. We are complicated, contradictory animals.

[Roman Clodia]

Nigeyb wrote: "Talking of which I applaud your decision for the two of you to travel to France on a motorbike"

Haha, really Mr RC wanted us to go camping in a bike/open road kind of way but I just can't handle the idea of not having a proper bathroom! This was our compromise :)

[Jill]

I see him as an absolute monster. He just gets others to do the killing for him. To him people are just numbers.

[Susan]

I am not far in at the moment, but I do think it is very contradictory. All these revolutionaries, living together, holidaying together, fussing about their health. Even Lenin said, the peasants need some starvation, or something similar, so there is this sense that, we won, now we can reap some of the benefits. However, perhaps also a human sense that they fought for these people and, remember, most - if not all - of the original revolutionaries, spent time in exile and prison. Siberia was not good for Stalin's health and, while I am, obviously, not excusing his behaviour - as Jill says, people are just numbers - this is really how he was all the time. He was the one who threw the bomb and then legged it. The one who planned the raid, but let others carry it out. He had no personal pity as a young man and now he has the ability to do what he wants, unchallenged. It is a dangerous place to be.

[Nigeyb]

Yes, you're spot on Susan


Not for nothing is part of the title The Court of the Red Tsar - he was really not that different from the Tsars and arguably worse in many ways

[Roman Clodia]

Revolutions are sadly so often contradictory: they often spring from genuine motives of social justice and idealism with people willing to sacrifice their lives or suffer exile and imprisonment, but the new order all too rapidly starts to look uncannily like the one it is supposedly replacing.

It's very disheartening. Dickens sort of nailed it in The Tale of Two Cities when the horrifically abused young girl grows up to be the bloodthirsty Mme Defarge.

[Roman Clodia]

One thing I wasn't sure about, the class that get translated as 'peasants' in this book, were they not the kulaks, the closest thing to a Russian middle-class i.e. landowners? The real 'peasants' i.e. serfs, I understood, were supporters of the revolution.

[Roman Clodia]

I'm on Operation Barbarossa now. I'd always understood that Stalin went into the pact with Germany knowing it wouldn't last and as a way to buy time for armament - SS-M tells quite a different story.

[Nigeyb]

Roman Clodia wrote: "One thing I wasn't sure about, the class that get translated as 'peasants' in this book, were they not the kulaks, the closest thing to a Russian middle-class i.e. landowners? The real 'peasants' i.e. serfs, I understood, were supporters of the revolution. "

I was a little confused about that. There's a bit early on where Stalin et al are complaining about the small holding owners resisting collectivisation and storing their meagre grain stocks. I seem to recall they all got the chop.

Given the scale of the Terror I imagine the executions were pretty indiscriminate.

Often it seemed to be more about hitting the numbers (and settling local scores) than about any real idealogical imperative

[Nigeyb]

Roman Clodia wrote: "I'm on Operation Barbarossa now. I'd always understood that Stalin went into the pact with Germany knowing it wouldn't last and as a way to buy time for armament - SS-M tells quite a different story."

Yes. He states Stalin admired Hitler. He certainly used a few moves from the Hitler playbook.

Between them they could (and, from a strategic perspective, probably should) have just carved up Europe between them.

[Haaze]

Hello,
Hmm, I didn't know that you were going through a Stalin phase here (and I note that you guys were traversing Hitler/Goebbels) earlier this year. I started Toland's Adolf Hitler and I can see why these books are tantalizing with the holistic view of societies and interpretation of history. I love the inside view of the individual suspended in the social current and the ripples through history. Do you think that individuals such as Stalin change history or would something similar have happened regardless due to other forces in society? I.e. other individuals would have picked up similar roles in the movements (not exactly the same).

It is interesting reading your comments as you are traversing this behemoth. On my (mega) reading list is Kotkin's Stalin: Volume I: Paradoxes of Power, 1878-1928 and its sequel, but you have sparked my interest in Montefiore. You guys are just reading so many good books at the same time. I don't know how you do it....... ;-)

Fascinating topic.

[Roman Clodia]

Something I'm enjoying greatly about this book, Haaze, is that SM-M keeps to the remit of focusing on Stalin the man: it doesn't turn into a general history of Soviet Russia during Stalin's lifetime as some historical biographies do. He doesn't - can't - avoid what's happening historically, of course (I'm now on the Nazi invasion of Russia) but he illuminates Stalin wonderfully. I'm delighted that Nigeyb tempted me into reading this.

Incidentally, I'm listening to the audiobook - I'd normally do that while commuting to/from work but under the current regime, it's my companion while cooking and doing lunchtime yoga. Audio is definitely the way to cram a few more books into my life!

[Nigeyb]

Glad you're still enjoying it RC


Very well narrated too I thought


Haaze wrote: "Do you think that individuals such as Stalin change history or would something similar have happened regardless due to other forces in society? I.e. other individuals would have picked up similar roles in the movements (not exactly the same). "

Always fun to consider a counter-factual question.

I think Stalin changed history and it would have been different with someone else at the helm.

Stalin's paranoid personality, lack of empathy, and ruthlessness combined with that precise moment in history to create a perfect storm.

Very similar to Hitler's own rise from nothing to supreme power.

Haaze wrote: "On my (mega) reading list is Kotkin's Stalin: Volume I: Paradoxes of Power, 1878-1928 and its sequel, but you have sparked my interest in Montefiore. You guys are just reading so many good books at the same time. I don't know how you do it....... ;-)"

Come and join in Haaze. I'd love to learn what you make of this book.

RC had divulged one pro tip: always have an audiobook on the go as well as a physical/e-reader book. I "read" double the books I used to before getting the audiobook habit.

[Roman Clodia]

Haaze wrote: "Do you think that individuals such as Stalin change history or would something similar have happened regardless due to other forces in society? i.e. other individuals would have picked up similar roles in the movements (not exactly the same)."

I don't really know enough about the background history but would incline to agreement with Nigeyb, that there are a unique combination of circumstances that bring together a personality and a specific time setting.

Looking at Stalin's cohort, who might have replaced him? Beria certainly has even more ruthlessness but seems to have been distrusted, even hated. One of the unique things about Stalin, and strange as it may seem, is that he is loved for himself by his companions as well as by his family.

I wonder, if Nadya, his wife, hadn't died, might things have been different? Or if Svetlana had been older? For all the monstrous things he did, Stalin himself also had the capacity for deep love and friendship, and idealism - at least when he was younger.

[Susan]

The relationship with his first wife was well covered in Young Stalin. I think it was losing two wives - one through death/neglect of her health and the other through suicide, which must have devastated him personally.

[Jill]

I am half way through now, and I know I am not a fast reader, but wondered how you people had sped through it so quickly. I know now it was that you are listening rather than reading. I think the abundance of footnotes is also slowing me down.

[Roman Clodia]

Nigeyb wrote: "Between them {Hitler and Stalin] they could (and, from a strategic perspective, probably should) have just carved up Europe between them."

Except Hitler was throwing communists into his camps - not in anything like the number of Jews, of course, but still. And a lot of the original Bolsheviks were Jewish, many of whom were excluded from Russian universities. Wasn't Lenin himself part Jewish?

I know what you mean though. I remember studying this period at school when I was about 14 and asking my history teacher how the Left and Right can end up looking so similar - at the extreme ends (or maybe that should be a circle), they can almost become indistinguishable, even if for different reasons.

[Roman Clodia]

Susan wrote: "The relationship with his first wife was well covered in Young Stalin. I think it was losing two wives - one through death/neglect of her health and the other through suicide, which m..."

Thanks, it's really interesting to know about that first wife - but, no, no, I really can't add another book to my TBR!

[Roman Clodia]

Jill wrote: "I think the abundance of footnotes is also slowing me down.."

I only read footnotes if I want to check out the sources.

Incidentally, to anyone who has or is interested in the audiobook, I was impressed to find that Audible have the notes and bibliography posted to My Library to download.

[Susan]

I am only a few chapters in, Jill, don't worry. I don't regret reading the first book though, I loved it.

[Haaze]

Roman Clodia wrote: "Incidentally, to anyone who has or is interested in the audiobook, I was impressed to find that Audible have the notes and bibliography posted to My Library to download.."

As a separate audio file? Or a pdf? Must be the latter since I really wonder how many of us that can handle a "footnote" reading experience. :P *shiver*

[Haaze]

Jill wrote: "I am half way through now, and I know I am not a fast reader, but wondered how you people had sped through it so quickly. I know now it was that you are listening rather than reading. I think the a..."

I think these guys time travel back and forth thereby doubling or tripling their reading time. Definitely!

[Haaze]

Susan wrote: "The relationship with his first wife was well covered in Young Stalin. I think it was losing two wives - one through death/neglect of her health and the other through suicide, which m..."

That sounds like a great book, Susan. So you opted for a full timeline? It seems like the more current biographies of Hitler and Stalin focus more on the personal aspects of life rather than the turmoil of history. I like your thoughts about Stalin's experience with loss changing him as an individual. Clearly there most be some truth to that aspect. Do you feel as if reading Young Stalin prepared you better for reading the "sequel"?

[Roman Clodia]

Haaze wrote: "As a separate audio file? Or a pdf? Must be the latter since I really wonder how many of us that can handle a "footnote" reading experience. :P *shiver*."

Yes, sorry, as a pdf!

[Haaze]

Have any of you read Kotkin's biography? There seems to be such a multitude of biographies in the Stalin/Hitler realm. I know it is partially linked to archives opening up and a wish to reinterpret or understand these pivotal decades of European history. At the same time there are less and less living witnesses to these event (pretty much gone now) so historians suddenly work from a distance looking back rather than being entangled in the proximity of the events. These last five years has seen several (mega) Stalin and Hitler biographies. It is perplexing. If I was a history professor I'm not so sure I would go for writing another 1,000+ page biography covering this topography. What do you think?

I'm sorely tempted to catch up with you guys in Montefiore's book.

[Haaze]

Roman Clodia wrote: "I don't really know enough about the background history but would incline to agreement with Nigeyb, that there are a unique combination of circumstances that bring together a personality and a specific time setting."

Do you prefer Roman or RC? :)

I like your perspective. So following that train of thought history would unfold differently with minor shifts in actions, births, survival etc. leading to different people taking charge or inventing things. It is kind of spooky to think about how all things could be different following different trajectories. It kind of makes my brain melt.

[Susan]

I am at the part where Stalin invites all the writers into a room and suggests that what is needed is 'socialist realism.' I can feel the shudder through the years!

[Nigeyb]

An audience with Stalin would have had most people quaking in their shoes

[Haaze]

Somehow these last posts remind me of a chapter in In the First Circle by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn. The reader encounters Stalin in his private quarters and it is quite an experience. Loved reading that novel!

[Nigeyb]

Thanks Haaze. I don't know that particular novel and am off to investigate.

[Haaze]

Nigeyb wrote: "Thanks Haaze. I don't know that particular novel and am off to investigate."

Ooops, I think the uncensored version is better. Here:
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2...

It is one of my favorite novels from the 20th century. :)

[Roman Clodia]

I read quite a lot of Solzenitsyn in my late teens/university (Cancer Ward and August 1914 are on my re-read list, but I've never read The First Circle or the Gulag Archipelago, though they're both on my radar. Great to have your recommendation, Haaze.

And I answer to anything but RC is quicker while typing! :)

[Roman Clodia]

I'm well into WW2 now - Leningrad is besieged, but Stalin has called up his vast Eastern army to protect Moscow and the Germans are retreating.

It's very interesting reading this following Stalingrad and Life and Fate.

[Roman Clodia]

OMG, that meeting between Stalin and Churchill - though I could have done without the description of Churchill's wrinkled buttocks as he got undressed for bed!

[Nigeyb]

Yes, an unusual detail to include

[Haaze]

Roman Clodia wrote: "I'm well into WW2 now - Leningrad is besieged, but Stalin has called up his vast Eastern army to protect Moscow and the Germans are retreating.

It's very interesting reading this following [book:..."

I can see how Grossman's books really can sharpen the war experience here. You read those in this group as well?

[Haaze]

Roman Clodia wrote: "I read quite a lot of Solzenitsyn in my late teens/university (Cancer Ward and August 1914 are on my re-read list, but I've never read The First Circle or the Gulag Arc..."

Yes, it was quite a reading experience. The Gulag Archipelago awaits one of these years. It is like looking forward to the Russian version of Proust but in Siberia.....

[Nigeyb]

Yes, we read the Grossman books too (though not me) - I have them waiting for a suitable moment

[Haaze]

Nigeyb wrote: "Yes, we read the Grossman books too (though not me) - I have them waiting for a suitable moment"

Me too - ha ha! I just wish I could live for another three centuries so I could finish my TBR list....

[Jan C]

I read The Gulag Archipelago 1918–1956 some years ago.

[Haaze]

Jan C wrote: "I read The Gulag Archipelago 1918–1956 some years ago."

Ah, I'm impressed! :) Did you enjoy and/or appreciate the experience?

[Susan]

I have read Cancer Ward some years ago. Definitely an author I want to re-visit. Must investigate the suggested titles.

[Susan]

Oh, I read A Day in the Life of... as well. I see Cancer Ward is just £2.99 on kindle. Couldn't resist...

[Judy]

Roman Clodia wrote: "I read quite a lot of Solzenitsyn in my late teens/university ..."

I did the same - I believe I read A Day in the Life, Cancer Ward, First Circle and Gulag Archipelago. I don't remember all that much about them after all these years, though, apart from the general mood.

[Roman Clodia]

I'm so impressed by anyone who has read The Gulag Archipelago!

Just going back to Stalin: he personally phones up the heads of tobacco companies to make sure that fighters in Stalingrad are sent cigarettes.

Also, as Nigeyb commented earlier, what is going through a older, married man's head when he tries to seduce a 16-year old schoolgirl, who not only has a Georgian father... but that father is Stalin!

[Roman Clodia]

I'm finding myself fascinated by Svetlana and wonder if anyone's read more about her? There is a biography Stalin's Daughter: The Extraordinary and Tumultuous Life of Svetlana Alliluyeva but it's very long and it's really her life in Russia that interests me, less so what happens after her defection to the US.