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Dombey and Son
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Dombey, Chapters 32 - 34
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A Visitor Of Distinction
Chapter 32
The rejected alms
Chapter 34
Here's the colorized version, if it works that is:
And here is "Alice", the third plate in the first series of extra-illustrations for Dombey and Son drawn by Hablot K. Browne.
Joy wrote: "I didn't much like chapter 33 either. it took me a while to figure out who Harriet was."I may be missing something here... Joy - are you saying that Harriet is someone other than simply the sister of the Carker brothers? Or that it just took you a little bit to figure out that she was Harriet the sister?
Tristam wrote: "Some unknown gentleman - although Dickens gives a hint or two as to his identity - has taken a lively interest in the affairs of Carker and Harriet and promises to be of help to her whenever she chooses."
And as for the older gentlemen, I was trying for the might of me to figure out who it was, but I have no clue!!
When Alice went back to Harriet's house to give back the money, is it because she is the sister of the sinister Carker the Manager? Or is it because the sister herself or the older brother had done something in the past to offend Alice and/or Mrs. Brown?
Joy wrote: "I did not remember Harriet from precious chapters."No wonder. We heard about her and the choice she made (for reasons I don't recall ever getting detailed to us) between her brothers back in Chapter 22, when Mr. Carker said to his brother "I know no Harriet Carker. There is no such person. You may have a sister; make much of her. I have none.' But we never actually met her.
I actually found Chapter 33 interesting. Partly because I went back to look at the earlier passage on Harriet (which I quoted in my previous message), and so was interested in the apparently changed view presented here when we read of Carker "though his liking for her is gone, after this ungrateful slight as he considers it; and though he abandons her altogether in return, an old idea of her is not quite forgotten even by him. Let her flower-garden, in which he never sets his foot, but which is yet maintained, among all his costly alterations, as if she had quitted it but yesterday, bear witness!" This is the first break I have seen in a character that I considered to this point completely without any redeeming human attributes. But he remembers his sister and keeps her garden alive. That's a side of him I hadn't expected.
And I liked getting to know Harriet, and seeing the multiple sides of her, one who is herself in want but who is also willing to share the little she has with one she thinks to be in more want than herself. I hope Dickens has humanity enough to make things turn out well for her in the end.
Joy wrote: "I did not remember Harriet from precious chapters."Yeah, she was briefly mentioned. I don't know why but her name stuck in my mind so I recognized it again when it popped up again. I just wanted to make sure there wasn't something else I was missing.
Tristram wrote: "Dear Fellow Pickwickians,this week's instalment shows us Dickens focusing on minor characters mostly.
In Chapter 32 Mr. Toots makes the acquaintance of Captain Cuttle when he is sent by Susan Ni..."
Well, I am coming to the defence of chapter 33. I liked it. First, as mentioned by Everyman, we do get to have a peek into Carker's home. If it is in any way true that a home is the best reflection of the man, then I am surprised at what is behind his front door. The house is orderly, like Carker's mind, it appears somewhat sterile, like Carker's personality, but the flower garden was a major surprise, which is just like Dickens who likes to keep his readers on their toes. I found the caged bird to be the most interesting part of the house and am not too sure what to make of it yet. There have been so many earlier references to Carker's feline attributes I hope the worst does not happen ... . Even symbolically or as foreshadowing
The parts with Harriet were very revealing. Dickens appears to be in the process of developing her character further. I get the feeling that the triangle of the Carker brothers and Harriet will be used for future tension and character revelation.
I liked and agree with the comments about the pairings of the mother/daughters - Skewton/Brown. Again, it appears that Dickens is establishing a situation where comparison and revelation of people will occur later in the novel.
A side note to Linda and Everyman. Thanks for being the beacons for Alaska Air getting us to Seattle. The pilot followed the book sightings and waves rather than his flight deck instruments and we landed safely. My wife and I had a good vacation but the 4 1/2 hour layover in Seattle was a bit long. There was no one else reading Dickens at the airport. ; )
Peter wrote: "There was no one else reading Dickens at the airport. ; ) "Not surprising. They were all busy sipping Starbucks and refining their startup business plans.
Peter wrote: " My wife and I had a good vacation but the 4 1/2 hour layover in Seattle was a bit long."Long layover! I could have made a quick jaunt on over and met you in person, being I live about 1 minute due northeast of the airport...
Loved that I was able to help the pilot land the plane with my waves. :)
Peter wrote: "I found the caged bird to be the most interesting part of the house and am not too sure what to make of it yet. There have been so many earlier references to Carker's feline attributes I hope the worst does not happen."Yeah, a cat keeping his prey locked up in a cage, and that bird wanted out! I also hope this is not foreshadowing something to come.
Joy wrote: "But if she chose the kinder brother then why does Alice hate her so much? Are they friends now? I'm more confused than ever."Yes, I'm confused as well. Does Alice hate Harriet simply because she is the sister of the evil Carker brother, and he is the one who has done something against Alice and her mother? Or had Harriet actually done something to Alice and her mother in the past, perhaps even unknowingly?
Linda wrote: "Joy wrote: "But if she chose the kinder brother then why does Alice hate her so much? Are they friends now? I'm more confused than ever."Yes, I'm confused as well. Does Alice hate Harriet simply..."
Because Dickens loves employing coincidences so much, and there is something obvious that has triggered such reactions, I am betting all will be revealed in time. Meanwhile, more strong emotions are being stirred up and the emphasis of who the "good" and "bad" characters are continues to grow.
Characters such as Edith are becoming more intriguing. Her obvious coldness and bitterness are tempered by her obvious caring for the welfare of Florence. With the added factor of Carker's hovering nature over her we see Dickens intertwining each character with an ever-expanding web of other characters.
Kim wrote: "And here is "Alice", the third plate in the first series of extra-illustrations for Dombey and Son drawn by Hablot K. Browne."
Hmmmm, to my taste, and as far as I can gather from the book, Alice does not look rebellious and passionate enough by half in that picture.
Linda wrote: "And as for the older gentlemen, I was trying for the might of me to figure out who it was, but I have no clue!!"I'd rather not tell you then just now in order not to spill any beans.
Linda wrote: "When Alice went back to Harriet's house to give back the money, is it because she is the sister of the sinister Carker the Manager? Or is it because the sister herself or the older brother had done something in the past to offend Alice and/or Mrs. Brown? "I think it was just Carker the Heavily-Beteethed who did something to Alice, but Alice is so full of passionate ire and hatred that she extends her feelings for Carker on his siblings.
Everyman wrote: "I actually found Chapter 33 interesting. Partly because I went back to look at the earlier passage on Harriet (which I quoted in my previous message), and so was interested in the apparently chang..."I just wonder how Carker can keep Harriet's flower-garden alive and well-kempt if he does not set foot into it.
Peter wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Dear Fellow Pickwickians,this week's instalment shows us Dickens focusing on minor characters mostly.
In Chapter 32 Mr. Toots makes the acquaintance of Captain Cuttle when he is..."
Peter,
I do agree with you and Everyman that Chapter 33 is interesting in that we get some insight into Carker's home, which corroborates what we know about him as a person, and which adds some new detail as to his relationship to his sister. Apparently, there is some lingering spark of a memory of affection for her in him.
As to the rest, however, esp. the parting dialogue between Harriet and Carker the Wallower-in-Self-Pity, it was way too hammy and I could no longer take those characters seriously. As to Harriet, of course, this changed when I saw how she behaved towards Alice.
Lindsay wrote: "Slightly OT!!!I got an email that we're going to start reading THE CHIMES on
01DEC14,
are we going to read them both at the same time or break away from Dombey and Son???"
Lindsey,
yes, we are going to read Dombey and Son simultaneously, for a while, with The Chimes. I thought that since our reading bits are not too long, we might manage for some time.
Tristram wrote: "I just wonder how Carker can keep Harriet's flower-garden alive and well-kempt if he does not set foot into it. ."Gardeners. It was the age of servants.
Tristram wrote: " As to Harriet, of course, this changed when I saw how she behaved towards Alice. "I would appreciate hearing your before and after thoughts and why they changed.
Everyman wrote: "This is the first break I have seen in a character that I considered to this point completely without any redeeming human attributes. But he remembers his sister and keeps her garden alive. That's a side of him I hadn't expected."I did not expect this either. Now it seems as if the only person he cares about at all is himself, but at one time he must have cared about his sister. Still does maybe, at least a little. Perhaps there is some good in everyone.
Everyman wrote: "Peter wrote: "There was no one else reading Dickens at the airport. ; ) "Not surprising. They were all busy sipping Starbucks and refining their startup business plans."
I have noticed for some time now that when I am in Barnes & Noble there are many more people either sitting at the tables drinking Starbucks coffee or standing in line to get it.
Tristram wrote: "Linda wrote: "And as for the older gentlemen, I was trying for the might of me to figure out who it was, but I have no clue!!"I'd rather not tell you then just now in order not to spill any beans."
I can't remember who he is and at the moment have no idea even though I've read the book before. I couldn't remember who Alice was either, last week when I came across the extra-illustrations there were four of them, Paul, Florence, Edith and Alice. I skipped Alice at the time and had absolutely no idea who she was supposed to be.
Everyman wrote: "Tristram wrote: "I just wonder how Carker can keep Harriet's flower-garden alive and well-kempt if he does not set foot into it. ."Gardeners. It was the age of servants."
A very good point!
Kim wrote: "Perhaps there is some good in everyone. "No way! ;-)
Kim wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Linda wrote: "And as for the older gentlemen, I was trying for the might of me to figure out who it was, but I have no clue!!"I'd rather not tell you then just now in order not t..."
No wonder you cannot figure out the identity of that visitor right now because if I am not mistaken he has actually not made any distinct appearance before but was just referred to by the narrator and some characters in the novel.
Everyman wrote: "Tristram wrote: " As to Harriet, of course, this changed when I saw how she behaved towards Alice. "I would appreciate hearing your before and after thoughts and why they changed."
Before I thought of Harriet as just some other Ruth character, a bloodless, pudding-making sister who defines herself via her brother and is of no real importance to the action - just another instance of Dickens's apparent idealization of meek and forbearing women. The stilted dialogue with which Carker the Self-Pitiful and Harriet took leave of each other confirmed me in this opinion, and I was tempted to skip the whole chapter - indeed I just skimmed some few passages to get over with them quickly.
Then when Alice came into play I was fascinated by how the two characters interacted with each other, and it struck me as remarkable that Alice was actually moved by the charity she received at the other woman's hands. Basically, Harriet is the same goody-two-shoes character as before but in that situation it did not seem too contrived.
It's difficult to put my attitude into words but Alice has somehow infused the Harriet character with life in my eyes.
By the way, I'd also say that I had the impression that Mrs. Brown, for all her moral baseness, really seems to love her daughter somehow - for example, she was quite scared at finding her so altered, and it was the memory of her daughter that made her spare Florence's hair in the first place, i.e. that brought out some gentler streak of her coarse nature.Mrs. Skewton, on the other hand, is mercantile and false, through and through.
Tristram wrote: "Dear Fellow Pickwickians,this week's instalment shows us Dickens focusing on minor characters mostly.
In Chapter 32 Mr. Toots makes the acquaintance of Captain Cuttle when he is sent by Susan Ni..."
Mothers and daughters. A great development of connections is being set up. I've just finished a re-read of chapter 34. There is some serious energy, anger and backstory to be unravelled.
Peter, I am looking forward to the passage when the two mother-daughter-pairs will finally meet ...
Tristram wrote: "Peter, I am looking forward to the passage when the two mother-daughter-pairs will finally meet ..."
Yes, Tristram. Once I get far enough into a Dickens novel that all the characters seem to have been introduced, one of my greatest pleasures is watching as Dickens brings the various characters and pairings into contact with each other.
We had a very good example of how Dickens manages to bring people together and to catch those single moments where other writers just give a panoramic passage or two, in the wedding chapter. Reading this book anew, I can hardly understand why I found it so uninteresting the first time I read it. This book vibrates with life, and Dickens is able to create a whole microcosm.
Tristram wrote: "We had a very good example of how Dickens manages to bring people together and to catch those single moments where other writers just give a panoramic passage or two, in the wedding chapter. Readin..."D&S is, in my view, the most underrated novel of Dickens. I am, of course, unable to say what my most over-rated Dickens is ... ; )
Tristram wrote: "It's difficult to put my attitude into words but Alice has somehow infused the Harriet character with life in my eyes. ."Thanks. I came at it a bit differently because I didn't think of Harriet as bloodless, but as a woman who had left the comfort of life with the wealthy brother in favor of the destitute brother who really needed her, which in my eyes already made her someone a bit special.
Tristram wrote: "Mrs. Skewton, on the other hand, is mercantile and false, through and through."
But has been more successful in raising a daughter to benefit her, and in using her intelligence and powers to come down in a place of relative comfort and ease.
Peter wrote: "Once I get far enough into a Dickens novel that all the characters seem to have been introduced, one of my greatest pleasures is watching as Dickens brings the various characters and pairings into contact with each other. "But one thing about Dickens is that he seems to keep on introducing new characters as the novel proceeds. Which is naturalistic, because each of us tends to meet new people as our lives proceed.
Everyman wrote: "Peter wrote: "Once I get far enough into a Dickens novel that all the characters seem to have been introduced, one of my greatest pleasures is watching as Dickens brings the various characters and ..."Yes, there always does seem to be a new character popping up throughout his novels, but I find that by the half way point (a very un-scientific and arbitrary place I realize) the main cast of characters seem to have been introduced and their individual natures initially revealed to the readers. In some ways it is as if Dickens has a rubic cube and the characters are the colours. A twist here, a twirl there, and a rainbow of combinations flash before our eyes. Then, as the reader nears the end of the novel, the colours begin to align, the pattern begins to evolve, and, finally, the sides are solved, the story told.
Tristram wrote: "Kim wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Linda wrote: "And as for the older gentlemen, I was trying for the might of me to figure out who it was, but I have no clue!!"I'd rather not tell you then just now in..."
Ah, that gave me enough of a clue, I remember now. I also went back and looked just to make sure. :-}
Everyman wrote: "Thanks. I came at it a bit differently because I didn't think of Harriet as bloodless, but as a woman who had left the comfort of life with the wealthy brother in favor of the destitute brother who really needed her, which in my eyes already made her someone a bit special. "Maybe we are also viewing the characters from different perspectives, and in order not to be misunderstood, I'd rather explain myself once more:
When I say that Harriet is bloodless and bland and any such thing, I am talking about her as a literary character, i.e. as the writer's creation, and not at all as a human being. It must take a lot of pluck and decency to leave a comfortable place in order to stand by a brother who is shunned by everyone else. And personally I'd be proud to know somebody like Harriet.
As a literary character, however, I think she largely fails in that we are never given an instance in which she frets with her lot or doubts her decision - as, in the light of her daily hardships, most people, be they ever so decent, would probably do in their heart of hearts. No, Dickens allows for no alloy of weakness in the metal of her purity, and this makes her a rather uninteresting literary creation.
Dickens is generally not very good at making his good guys interesting at all, and some of the most boring reads are those when they are assembled in one room, talking about their feelings. Take, as a contrast, Dostoevsky, and you know what I mean.
This artist and illustration are both new to me. The artist is James Gilbert and the year created is 1874:
Alice Brown and her mother
Chapter 34
Kim wrote: "This artist and illustration are both new to me. The artist is James Gilbert and the year created is 1874:Alice Brown and her mother
Chapter 34"
Powerful pic. They are turning out to be very interesting characters in the novel.
I agree with Peter: It's a very powerful illustration; Mrs. Brown looks like an emaciated and yet dangerous woman, although Alice's features seem to be uncommonly soft. I would have pictured her more forbidding and aloof. The way she crosses her hands, though, shows that she is not too comfortable in her mother's embrace.
So the mother and daughter are an established theme! This latest duo came as a complete surprise to me. Who would have imagined the reappearance of (view spoiler). This has led my brain to go on overdrive to solve the mystery. There's also one of Dickens's favourites: a character he refuses to name, who intrigues us as to his identity - it's sure to be someone crucial to the plot!Things have definitely improved in the interest stakes :)
It's things like this sense of mystery, and hiding of identity, which make me want to say to people "Read the text!" Yes, dramatisation are all very well, but they can never bring this off. Neither do they include the twin delights of his sarcasm and hyperbole :)
Dickens even makes it absolutely clear that this mother/daughter theme is deliberate, and crossing all classes of folk,
"Allowing for great difference of stuff and texture, was the pattern of this woof repeated among gentle blood at all? Say, Edith Dombey! And Cleopatra, best of mothers, let us have your testimony!"
Really looking forward to the rest of it. I do agree that Dickens's writing is getting better all the time, but am not sure how to rate this novel overall - the plot gets lost sometimes. Perhaps that doesn't matter. And I could be wrong - hard to judge at this point as the multilayering and intertwining is superb, viz Good Mrs Brown - and the unspecified stranger.
Jean wrote: "So the mother and daughter are an established theme! This latest duo came as a complete surprise to me. Who would have imagined the reappearance of [spoilers removed]. This has led my brain to go o..."No pressure on your rating, but, in my opinion, DS is his most underappreciated novel. I think it is grand, and is his first truly mature look at the structure of Victorian society rather than just a grand creation and imagination of character.
Moving on from Little Nell a bit ... of all our female characters to date, I found Florence to be the best creation of a "good" character. I think Edith is a grand creation too. And Dombey, how, ... well you haven't finished the book yet :-)
Yes, I'm reading these threads very carefully as I go, and learning a lot from your analysis Peter - and had picked up that you are very enthusisatic about this one, yes ;)I am impressed by the depth of these female characters, and I think quite a bit of it is because he's pairing them, so that the behaviour of each is sparked by the other's. Oliver Twist had a female character, Nancy, who did not conform to Dickens's ideal, but whose character was explored more fully than usual. If only she had had a counterfoil ...
So with Edith and Florence, I'm enjoying seeing the development of both characters - and how their interaction influences it. I am looking forward to seeing how circumstances perhaps alter Lucretia Tox too, now she has been (view spoiler).
I think I really like the Dickens' characters who develop through the novel - although I do love his baddies, and they stay pretty much the same except for a vague feeling of regret sometimes at the end. But there's definitely an extra refinement to the writing of the females in Dombey and Son.
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this week's instalment shows us Dickens focusing on minor characters mostly.
In Chapter 32 Mr. Toots makes the acquaintance of Captain Cuttle when he is sent by Susan Nipper to Sol Gills' in order to hear some professional opinions on the newspaper report that announces the Son and Heir has been given up as shipwrecked. The Captain, whose hopes were fading anyway, says that a ship's log is "the truest book as a man can write" and resigns himself to having lost both Walter and his uncle. A visit to Mr. Carker's office shows him the true nature of that gentleman, rather belatedly. Carker is not too sad about Walter's death, and he indirectly accuses the Captain of having had dishonest plans concerning Walter's rise in the firm - via Florence.
Chapter 33 shows Dickens at his tritest, I must confess: It centres on the elder Carker and his sister Harriet, and it is full of starchy dialogue. Some unknown gentleman - although Dickens gives a hint or two as to his identity - has taken a lively interest in the affairs of Carker and Harriet and promises to be of help to her whenever she chooses. - A rather weak chapter, if you ask me.
Then, in Chapter 34, there is another minor character introduced: Alice Marwood, the long-lost daughter of Good Mrs. Brown. Alice has just returned from the penal colonies of Australia, and she happens to find herself, in the middle of a thunderstorm, in front of Harriet Carker's house. Harriet offers her help and shelter and gives her some money, and the very proud Alice accepts it all, and is moved by the other woman's sympathy. On learning, however, from her mother that it was Carker the Manager's sister who gave her the money, she goes back to the place, curses Harriet and throws the money at her feet.
This chapter also explains why Good Mrs. Brown has taken such an interest in the Dombey family and why she crossed Edith's path so shortly before the marriage.
I would honestly like to know what you think of Chapter 33.
Then, it is obvious that Dickens wants to draw a parallel between Edith and Mrs. Skewton on the one hand and Alice and her mother on the other. Where do you see parallels? I think Mrs. Skewton much worse than Mrs. Brown, for instance ... and tomorrow or so, I will also you tell why.