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Questions about Flags in the Dust? December 2014
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Lawyer, "Moderator Emeritus"
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Nov 19, 2014 10:29AM
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Laura wrote: "Very nice added feature! Thank you Leanne!!!"Yes I like it too and I'm looking forward to this read. Love that man Bill!
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For me, reading Faulkner is like soaking in a warm bath, incredibly sensual.Early (I read ebooks so can't give page numbers) Simon bring Bayard home from the bank and:
"Bayard stood for a while before his house, but the white simplicity of it dreamed unbroken among ancient sunshot trees. Wistaria mounting one end of the veranda had bloomed and fallen, and a faint drift of shattered petals lay palely about the dark roots of it and about the roots of a rose trained onto the same frame. The rose was slowly but steadily choking the other vine, and it bloomed now thickly with buds no bigger than a thumbnail and blown flowers no larger than silver dollars, myriad, odorless and unpickable."
I've never read Flags in the Dust but based on other Faulkner books I've read my guess is that the metaphor of the rose steadily choking out the wisteria foreshadows a theme in the book - one generation/set of values/socio-economic group steadily chokes out another.
Any thoughts on this?
Mod
Any thoughts on this? "
Dave, that's a very interesting observation. I'm not going to answer you directly for it will definitely spoil the ending. But consider this. Wisteria, or as Faulkner always spells it, wistaria is one of the most enduring vines that exists. It is invasive, almost indestructible, and in and of itself is capable of damaging any structure upon which it grows. At the same time, the climbing rose endures as well, it blooms season after season. And it is protected by thorns. Entwined together, are they not indestructible?
What of the generations of families? One generation succeeds another. They are bound together by a common heritage.
Perhaps that family is indestructible. Perhaps some are too like some of their ancestors. Their common faults will be their undoing.
Also consider the blending of families through marriage. Perhaps the intertwining of the wisteria and the rose is representative of a marriage.
Not messing with your mind, Dave. As you read, your impressions of this image may be confirmed, change, or become a combination of more than one of the above.
I will say this, the history of the Sartoris family closely mirrors Faulkner's family history, specifically, the male line of descent.
Following is an diagram of the Sartoris Family Genealogy.
WARNING! THIS CHART SHOWS THE DATES OF DEATH OF SOME CHARACTERS IN THIS NOVEL. I HAVE HIDDEN THE CHART WITH A SPOILER ALERT. OPEN ONLY IF YOU ARE NOT BOTHERED BY SPOILERS!
(view spoiler)
Faulkner Family Genealogy
William Clark Falkner, William Faulkner's Great Grandfather served as the model for the character of Colonel John Sartoris, who appeared in the novels Sartoris (1929) (reissued in an expanded edition as Flags in the Dust (1973)) and The Unvanquished (1938) as well as a number of short stories. Thus, Colonel Falkner is the inspiration for an integral part of the history of Faulkner's fictional Yoknapatawpha County.
John Wesley Thompson Falkner, a lawyer, moved in 1885 with his wife Sallie Murry and their family to Oxford. With their children Murry Cuthbert, Mary Holland, and John Wesley Thompson, Jr., they lived in a rented house on North Street and eventually built a house called the “Big Place” just below the town square. A civic-minded man who supported James K.Vardaman, John Falkner invested in land, operated a livery stable, an oil company, and the Opera House, in addition to organizing and running the First National Bank of Oxford.
J.W.T. Falkner is the model for "Old Bayard" Sartoris."
What's the business about the missing "U" in Faulkner's ancestors' name?
Wanna know? See http://hottytoddy.com/2014/07/28/the-... . Of course, it's all the Old Colonel's fault. He was born Faulkner. But when he moved to Ripley, Mississippi, and began his railroad company after the Civil War, there was already a Faulkner family there. He changed his name to FALKNER. Believe it or not, William Faulkner was born William FALKNER. He took the U back for the purpose of publishing. The Falkners took and dropped the U at will. There was never any legality to it. It was at the whim of the particular Falkner, uhm, Faulkner...WHATEVER.
William Clark Falkner, "The Old Colonel," in death, bigger than life, buried in Ripley, Mississippi
Thanks for the in-depth response Mike. I won't look at Faulkner's family tree for now. But I was interested in the various plot possibilities you suggested and will keep them in mind as I read. Its been a long time since I was in English lit. It is good to have a group like this to bounce ideas off.With a family member with Christian names of John Wesley is it a good bet that the Faulkners were Methodist?
Mod
William Faulkner was raised Methodist. Married in the Presbyterian Church. And then was a very infrequent attendee at the Episcopal Church in Oxford. He rarely appreared at church services, though religion permeated his works. It's an example of what Flannery O'Connor referred to as the South being "Christ Haunted." A fine introductory memoir/biography is Every Day by the Sun: A Memoir of the Faulkners of Mississippi by Dean Faulkner Wells. Mrs. Wells was the daughter of Faulkner's younger brother Dean who was killed in a plane crash shortly before her birth. Faulkner was guilt ridden by his brother's death. He had bought the plane in which his kid brother was killed and had paid for flying lessons for his brother to learn to fly. Following his brother's death, he took on the responsibility for seeing to his niece's needs as she grew up. She spent much time at Rowan Oak. Her memoir is an up close look at the Faulkner family. She was a frequent companion to Faulkner's daughter Jill. Although she claims never to have seen Faulkner drunk, she never holds back that he loved his Bourbon and women. His penchant for taking young mistresses is an open topic in Mrs. Well's memoir. Mrs. Wells died at the age of seventy five in Oxford, Ms. of a stroke a couple of years back. The BIBLE of all Faulkner biographies is Faulkner: A Biography: 1 by Joseph Blotner, a two volume masterpiece. Not only a factual biography, but a critical literary review of Faulkner's works. This biography is also available as a one volume abridged version.
Thanks for the book recommendations and interesting info on Faulkner Mike. At the moment I'm awash in Proustian but Lord willing and the creek don't rise I will move on from that obsession someday. Faulkner is a favorite. Your mention of sibling guilt brings to mind that issue in "The Sound and the Fury."Christ Haunted, what a descriptive phrase! Another favorite author! We made a languid trip across the South in 2001 and spent the night in Milledgeville. I spent an hour wandering around the town cemetery looking for Ms. O'Connor's grave (unsuccessfully). We are repeating that trip over Xmas and I'm going to see if I can tour Andalusia. We stayed overnight in Oxford back in 2001 also but I don't think Faulkner's home was open to the public or was closed that day. I remember trying but not being able to get on the property.
Anyone in the group knowing of other Southern Writer locales or graves worth visiting I'd appreciate a heads up. I'll go way out of my way to look at the most trifling literary noun.
Thank you so much for both family charts! - as always you are so organized ;) I have a confession to make..... I have started reading it ;) and I am ...blown away
I am trying to pace my reading to enjoy every word. I will really enjoy this one.
I got Flags In The Dust from the library today, so excited!!!!
I have started ! So far I can see that Faulkner is a master of dialogue and family saga description. I am intrigued by the different and contrasting male/female, white/Black characters' interactions, as everybody s story is linked to everyone else s I m guessing.
Jane wrote: "I have started ! So far I can see that Faulkner is a master of dialogue and family saga description. I am intrigued by the different and contrasting male/female, white/Black characters' interactio..."I'm also guessing, as I'm a bit confused, but that's to be expected with Faulkner, and I' m only about 20 pages in. I'm not quite sure who everyone is right now. But clarity will come, in the Faulkner way! Funnily enough, TSATF was pretty easy for me for the most part- there's always a part I have trouble with though. I was so enthralled with Faulkner's' writing in the beginning, I forgot there was a war going on.
I actually read the first two chapters twice
Jane wrote: "I actually read the first two chapters twice"And that is typical of a Faulkner reader- it takes me 3 weeks at least to read a Faulkner novel if it is 300 pages or a bit longer.
Jane wrote: "I actually read the first two chapters twice"When I read Flags In The Dust, I did the same thing and it was very helpful. This is the first Faulkner I read and I think it is still my favorite. I have several more to read though.
I am loving this. I d be interested in your feelings about Aunt Jenny versus the male characters. I also like the way the reactions to the Civil War and WW1 are contrasted with the different generations.
Jane wrote: "I am loving this. I d be interested in your feelings about Aunt Jenny versus the male characters. I also like the way the reactions to the Civil War and WW1 are contrasted with the different genera..."That's where I got mixed up- WW1 and the Civil War, thanks!! I thought I was missing something, I'll comment on Aunt Jenny later, when I am not at work. Glad you love it!
Jane wrote: "I am loving this. I d be interested in your feelings about Aunt Jenny versus the male characters. I also like the way the reactions to the Civil War and WW1 are contrasted with the different genera..."Aunt Jenny, I think, is a commanding presence! She is the definitely the boss- I love Faulkner's strong women. She's haughty and has a superior air, I don't like her attitude toward Simon though, I wonder how kind she is, we'll see.
I am up to Snope's character , so almost finished but his story seems to leave us hanging in mid air, does anyone else have that impression ? Maybe I've missed something.
Jane wrote: "I am up to Snope's character , so almost finished but his story seems to leave us hanging in mid air, does anyone else have that impression ? Maybe I've missed something."Hanging in mid air with Faulkner- yep! That's what he does, and we are supposed to figure it out, so I sometimes feel like I'm missing things too, which is okay. This certainly is not my favorite Faulkner but I' m glad I'm reading it.
Mod
This is one of Faulkner's master strokes. The name Snopes appears in the very first Yoknapatawpha novel. And the Snopes clan will return, the subject of the trilogy, The Hamlet, The Town, and The Mansion. And the creepy characteristics of Snopes the bank teller will be apparent running through the blood of all the Snopes you encounter. Most of them, that is. I can't spoil EVERYTHING!
Mod
Aunt Jenny is remarkable. She has established herself as the keeper of the male Sartorises for she knows, if left to their own devises, they will self destruct. I see her as Maggie Smith with a southern accent. *chuckle*
Your observation on the contrast of the two wars could spark many a fascinating conversation. At the beginning of the Civil War, Confederate attitudes were that one Rebel could whip ten Yankees. The "gallantry" and recklessness of the ill fated Sartoris attached to Jeb Stuart attests to that.
I am reminded of Attack and Die: Civil War Military Tactics and the Southern Heritage by Grady McWhiney which spoke of the advances of weaponry following the Mexican War, the effectiveness of which was not recognized during the Civil War when the Napoleonic tactics still were thought to carry the field.
Southern Invincibility: A History of the Confederate Heart by Wiley Sword also captures the Southern attitude during the Civil War. And the concept of Southern Honor is studied in depth inSouthern Honor: Ethics And Behavior In The Old South by Bertram Wyatt-Brown in the antebellum days.
We reach WWI and yet again more modern technology trumped outmoded tactics. The airplane, the tank, the gas. No one was prepared for any of it. It's interesting that Faulkner had the Sartoris brothers as fighter pilots. Of course, Faulkner was enamored of flight. He had intended on being a fighter pilot, enlisted with the Royal Canadian Air Force. But the war ended before he had the chance to fight in combat. The true horror of modern war was brought home to the world with "The War to End All Wars." Particularly to France, England, and other European nations. America lost its share relative to the amount of time of its involvement in that war.
Faulkner returns to WWI with A Fable, which he considered his masterpiece, for which he won his first Pulitzer. However, the Civil War and its after effects on the South pervade the Faulkner canon.
One of my favorite passages comes from Intruder in the Dust, about Gettysburg.
"For every Southern boy fourteen years old, not once but whenever he wants it, there is the instant when it's still not yet two oclock on that July afternoon in 1863, the brigades are in position behind the rail fence, the guns are laid and ready in the woods and the furled flags are already loosened to break out and Pickett himself with his long oiled ringlets and his hat in one hand probably and his sword in the other looking up the hill waiting for Longstreet to give the word and it's all in the balance, it hasn't happened yet, it hasn't even begun yet, it not only hasn't begun yet but there is stll time for it not to begin against that position and those circumstances which made more men than Garnett and Kemper and Armistead and Wilcox look grave yet it's going to begin, we all know that, we have come too far with too much at stake and that moment doesn't need even a fourteen-year-old boy to think This time. Maybe this time with all this much to lose and all this much to gain: Pennsylvania, Maryland, the world, the golden dome of Washington itself to crown with desperate and unbelievable victory the desperate gamble, the cast made two years ago...."
And, there, is the whole "Lost Cause," recaptured exquisitely.
Faulkner's Civil War stories, for the most part, are gathered in The Unvanquished. A very enjoyable read.
Mike wrote: "Jane wrote: "I am up to Snope's character , so almost finished but his story seems to leave us hanging in mid air, does anyone else have that impression ? Maybe I've missed something."This is one..." I think this novel is a masterpiece and couldn t put it down I m so engrossed in the characters that I miss them all already, so I ve ordered The Hamlet
Mike as always thank you for your insight into Faulkner's Civil War takes, as you know that was my Master's but I go back over it often because there s always something new to discover.I liked the way that Faulkner showed how the two generations differed in their approach to the aftermaths of their respective wars. The Civil War is remembered with more honor and true bravery than WW1 in Flags in the Dust. A lot of Faulkner s descriptions ,again, foreshadowed the Lost generation of Fitzgerald -if I am allowed to say that?
Southern Invincibility: A History of the Confederate Heart by Wiley Sword This one looks good I did read Southern Honor: Ethics And Behavior In The Old South by Bertram Wyatt-Brown a long time ago thanks for this
Mod
I liked ..."
I think that is a fine assessment. Your academic qualifications far exceed my own. I am spurred on by pure love of the study of Southern culture, folkways, and literature. It has been, essentially a life long self education with the help of a number of especially mentors. I will remind myself that you, my special friend, are among those. To do otherwise would be hubris on my part.
I definitely agree that Fitzgerald became a symbol of the lost generation. He has a curious mix of midwestern values, which he did his best to cast away following the end of WWII. And he had his exporsure to Southern culture while stationed at Camp Sheridan outside Montgomery, Alabama, where he happened upon Zelday Sayre, the daughter of a Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court. The courtship was tempestuous. Judge Sayre, Mrs. Sayre, without too much difficulty persuaded Zelda that Fitzgerald was incapable of supporting her. Their engagement was broken off. Fitzgerald returned north, published his first novel, This Side of Paradise which persuaded Zelda that Fitzgerald was capable of supporting her.
What followed was a series of writing that captured the lost generation and a tempestuous relationship. Fitgerald could be quite self inflated in his self image having claimed to have introduced the image of the Flapper. Hell. He married her.
Whether is was a marriage made in heaven or hell was a question subject to how one interprets their subsequent relationship. Sides have been clearly drawn. There are the Zelda supporter. and the Zelda Haters. Of course, Hemingway and Zelda despised one another.
How emotionally disturbed was Zelda? An original diagnosis of Schizophrenia in France. Subsequent hospitalizations in the Pratt Clinic, and Highland Hospital in Asheville.
I find it impossible to interpret Fitzgerald without interpreting Zelda. They had tremendous arguments over their literary epics. Zelda claimed that Scott frequently stole her best lines from her diaries. Fitzgerald steadily denied this.
However, Fitzgerald completely resented Zelda's publication of Save Me the Waltz which he claimed was drawn from material regarding their early life together which he planned on using in his novel The Beautiful and the Damned Volume 1.
Both had their problems with incrediblly excessive use of alcohol. No question that Fitzgerald was an alcoholic.
Fitzgerald had to take the Hollywood route as did Faulkner. However, Faulkner continued to write while he was also a successful novelist and short story writer. He also had the luck to be teamed with Howard Hawks.
Fitzgerald seems to have been cursed to have been involved with producers and directors lacking the savvy of Hawks. I often think of Fitzerald as a prime character for The Day of the Locust by Nathaniel West
By the time Fitzgerald hit Hollywood, his days of literary acclaim were behind him. Coupled with Sheila Graham, the attention was on Graham. Few recognized Fitzgerald. He had become a character of bathos. A has been. An attempt to go on the wagon was a failure more than once. While he attempted to return once more to establish his place in American literature with The Love of the Last Tycoon, unfinished, cut short by a heart attack in December, 1940. Zelda would survive until killed in a fire at Highland Hospital in Asheville, NC. in 1948.
Little remains of the Fitzgeralds' lives in Montgomery. Les of Zelda's. There is a Fitzgerald museum maintained in a portion of a home they rented in Montgomery. The home is now owned by attorney Jullian Phillips. It doesn't give the full flavor of the Fitzgerald life style in Montgomery. Zelda's childhood home no longer exists. I am constantly amazed at city's that do not preserve the important aspects of their historical heritage.
I just love reading you Mike, you do inspire me. Again thank youThis is an anecdote; I love both the Fitzgeralds and up until two years ago i lived opposite Hôtel Belles Rives in Juan les Pins which was their home/villa it has a wonderful bar where they serve afternoon teas or cocktails with photos of both of them on the walls I used to go there once a week for tea and I think when I am in a romantic mood that they may still be there, as they were in a happier time If anyone is over there do go because it s all about the Fitzgeralds still today and the Fitzgerald literary prize is awarded on the beach there - a magical place
https://www.google.co.uk/search?clien...
The Great Gatsby is my favorite book (tied with The Sound and the Fury), I read it every three years, on the beach. I was finally able to write a decent review of it. Fitzgerald, in my opinion, and I'm sure I am not alone in this, was never able to equal the mastery of TGG with his other novels. Alcoholism does awful things to people.
Karen yes, how true ," Alcoholism does awful things to people",I do re read ,"Tender is the Night" though and I think that captures a lot of T G G's magic.In" Flags in the Dust",Simon is another favorite character although I m engrossed in all Faulkner s characters Simon seems to be the memory keeper
Jane wrote: "Karen yes, how true ," Alcoholism does awful things to people",I do re read ,"Tender is the Night" though and I think that captures a lot of T G G's magic.In" Flags in the Dust",Simon is another ..."
I like Simon very much- even though black people were thought of as inferior to whites, and inequities were horrible then, Faulkner presents characters like Simon and especially Dilsey (TSATF) as figures of strength- it's subtle, (as always) but there. He tells a realistic story at the same time.
I'm glad you like Tender Is The Night, I like The Beautiful and the Damned better.
Yes, Simon is like Dilsey , he did create a wonderful world for for of stating the obvious
Your observations here are enticing me to pick up Faulkner and read! Ive only ever read TSATF and just had zero taste for his style. That stream of consciousness technique of his seemed so affected to me that it left me a bit resentful. Totally childish of me, of course, but I don't like being manipulated. That said, once I figured out that there were multiple Quentins, it was a very poignant story.
And in some sort of awful foreshadowing for my own life, that poor brother holding on to Caddy's slipper just wrecked me emotionally. As that book ends, his character is flipping out because he is driven around the town square opposite to the direction he expects. When I read TSATF 13 years ago, I had no idea that my infant son had autism too. Never touched Faulkner again.
So - can my heart bear this book? I just finished my book club read & am ready to read. Is it streamofconsciousnessliketheworldslongesthashtag? You folks are awesome!
Hi Leanne, I have become reconciled with Faulkner with this book and after years of teaching ONLY TSATF,yawn ! I got to the same stage as you regarding Faulkner but I was completely wrong..... and this is one of the possible starters into his multifaceted world. I loved this SO much I ve just ordered the Snopes trilogy books.
Jane, thank you! I've got nearly half a dozen books in the house, each squeaking, "pick ME, pick ME," but y'all have tantalized me here a bit. About to download & dive in this weekend. Gracias!
Oh! And is this Snopes where the urban myth-busting website came from?
Leanne wrote: "Your observations here are enticing me to pick up Faulkner and read! Ive only ever read TSATF and just had zero taste for his style. That stream of consciousness technique of his seemed so affected..."Hi! The Sound And The Fury is my favorite book, and like you, I have a son with a mental disability. I loved Faulkner's portrayal of Benjy, I was awestruck that he could portray this character so realistically. Faulkner is hard, but once you get used to his style, very rewarding. I plan on re-reading TSATF after I finish FITD, and yes, I found Benjy's section disturbing and heartbreaking- but profound.
Mod
Leanne, I have often been asked, "Where should I start with Faulkner. Invariably, I cite Flags in the Dust. This is the entree into Faulkner's world of Yoknapatawpha County. I find the presentation direct. The later stream of consciousness is absent here. Here are the roots of everything that follows. And in reading this, for me, it makes the later works of Faulkner more accessible.
From Flags in the Dust I recommend a follow up with The Unvanquished which is a series of connected short stories that fleshes out the Civil War days in Yoknapatawpha County.
Interestingly enough, his most difficult works are considered his masterworks from a literary criticism standpoint. However, as he became older, I believe Faulkner became conscious of the need to become more accessible, developing a wider reading audience. The Snopes Trilogy continually fascinates me. I am also particularly fond of the Gavin Stevens' novels. And, Faulkner's last novel, The Reivers: A Reminiscence is the gift of a true "Grandfather's tale" dedicated to his grandchildren and step granchildren. The critics consider this relatively minor works. Yet, a "minor" work by Faulkner would be considered a masterpiece by a lesser writer. So, I encourage you to pick this one up. You may find yourself falling in love with Wild Bill Faulkner.
Karen & Mike - thank you! Will be sleeping w our boys in a tent at the zoo tonight. Faulkner will be there with me, thanks to y'all. An adventurous place to start :)
Mike wrote: "Leanne wrote: "Your observations here are enticing me to pick up Faulkner and read! Ive only ever read TSATF and just had zero taste for his style. That stream of consciousness technique of his see..."I for one, would have liked more of the difficult stream of consciousness novels, TSATF being my favorite. That's just me- I connect to these novels.
Mike wrote: "A special thanks to our member Leanne who offered this suggestion via goodreads e-mail to me yesterday. She mentioned we had sections for initial impressions and final impressions, but really didn..."You're too kind - I'm just greedy to hear more about what these outstanding Trail blazers interpret from the various works we read. Y'all are like freeze dried book club - ready to nourish at a moment's notice. Awesome brain trust here!
Mike wrote: "Leanne wrote: "Your observations here are enticing me to pick up Faulkner and read! Ive only ever read TSATF and just had zero taste for his style. That stream of consciousness technique of his see..."Glad to have given in and picked this one up! Thank you, Mike. The insights you better-read folks have are a good influence.
Leanne wrote: "Karen & Mike - thank you! Will be sleeping w our boys in a tent at the zoo tonight. Faulkner will be there with me, thanks to y'all. An adventurous place to start :)"Cool!!
Mod
HAH! That is absolutely wonderful. One of the best Faulkner reading stories I've heard. I am thrilled that you are enjoying this.
This is only my 2nd consumption of Faulkner and was curious to know if there is a repeated theme within all or many of them. Generational relationships, a prodigal child, life lost - these things reach out to all people, I think - making his work so relatable. But - is this his consistent flavor? One of the reasons I admire Truman Capote, among others, is the wide reach of the tales he spun. Am curious about Faulkner.
Thanks!
Leanne wrote: "This is only my 2nd consumption of Faulkner and was curious to know if there is a repeated theme within all or many of them. Generational relationships, a prodigal child, life lost - these things r..."It is a repeated theme- but the books stand alone also; I think Faulkner could write about paint drying and make it unique and beautiful.
Mod
On the Southern Literary Trail
Books mentioned in this topic
The Unvanquished: The Corrected Text (other topics)The Reivers (other topics)
Flags in the Dust (other topics)
The Day of the Locust (other topics)
Save Me the Waltz (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Nathaniel West (other topics)Grady McWhiney (other topics)
Wiley Sword (other topics)
Bertram Wyatt-Brown (other topics)
Dean Faulkner Wells (other topics)
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