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Infinite Jest
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Infinite Jest by D.F. Wallace, WEEK 8
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I just finished this section but I don't have a lot to say about it. It was kind of more of the same, for me. Just when you thought the puppet show was over, it starts up again ... we do see a lot more of Marathe and Steeply's conversation. I wasn't sure I learned much this week, though. Maybe I have just not been concentrating. Looking forward to other people's posts!
I agree with everything that Rosemary said on this section. Part of why it is dragging for me...the information seems the same.I did find Marathe and Steeply's conversations on individual versus collective happiness and the role people should play in their choice to watch The Entertainment versus the government controlling it to be a fascinating philosophical and political conversation. I would actually be interested in continuing some of these mental exercises in the threads if people had their own thoughts on the topics.
I also want to point out to Linda that you can now view the website that I posted on the concavity/convexity. There is absolutely nothing else on that website that hasn't been mentioned at least once somewhere. No spoilers, and I think it will still help you understand it more than what I got from the descriptions in the book.
As per what the book was about, my conversation with my friend about it went something along the lines of:
Me: "Well, its really about addiction...err...the seeking of happiness and how that can lead to addiction, and the fine line between 'enough' and 'too much'...and I think its going to go into the role of technology and entertainment in people's search for happiness (The Entertainment), and might comment on how technology turns people into addicted zombies...but I really don't quite know yet."
Friend's response: "you are almost half way through an 1100 page monster book, and you don't quite know what its about yet?"
Me: **whimpers** "Its an adventure? Maybe??"
The political talk and puppet show are definitely the slog sections for me. I was dismayed to find that we had more of the puppet show to watch.But, I did enjoy the other sections quite a bit. I think the Marathe/Steeply conversation is worth going back and rereading as I also found it fascinating, but did not come to any one conclusion myself.
Kaycie, thanks for reminding me about the concavity/convexity link you posted. I did go back and look it up and the map was very helpful. Although still a bit confusing as to who calls that section by which name, but I get the gist of it at least.
I loved the part on the demise of the broadcast channels and advertising along with them, and the hunt for new types of advertising to generate revenue. A few of my favorite lines:
In reference to the NoCoat tongue-scraper campaign: It did what all ads are supposed to do: create an anxiety relievable by purchase.
In reference to the TV viewing choices: What matter whether your 'choices' are 4 or 104, or 504? Veals's campaign argued. Because here you were.....sitting here accepting only what was pumped by distant A.C.D.C. fiat into your entertainment-ken........The cable kabal's promise of 'empowerment', the campaign argued, was still just the invitation to choose which of 504 visual spoon-feedings you'd sit there and open wide for.
And finally this one: Chicago's once-vaunted Sickengen, Smith and Lundine went so far as to get Ford to start painting little domestic-product come-ons on their new lines' side-panels, an idea that fizzled as U.S. customers in Nike t-shirts and Marlboro caps perversely refused to invest in 'cars that sold out'.
The conclusion? As long as the viewer/consumer FEELS like he is choosing what to watch/wear/advertise, then all is OK in his mind. The multitude of channels (even though 95% of them are the same or unwatchable drivel). The wearing of brands, logos, ads. As long as one chooses to buy and wear the Nike t-shirt, then it feels like a choice. "I'm cool because I choose to wear and flaunt the Nike brand" (as opposed to purchasing a car with an advertisement already on it not of one's choosing, even though in both cases the consumer has paid for the right to be used as a walking/driving billboard).
I also enjoyed learning more of Don Gately, specifically the menial job he does in cleaning the Shattuck Shelter for Homeless Males. It is yukky, but he is there, gets the job done, and goes home. Didn't he even say he could look for another job, but hasn't bothered to do so? Because he took this one in the nick of time in order to have a job by the deadline. I wonder why he stays with this job? I wonder if it's to see and remind himself every day how tough other people have it? Another incentive for him to stay sober?Finally, the Eric Clipperton section was a bit puzzling, and then finally devastating. I found myself wondering if this kid actually was able to play tennis at such a high level? It seems he always just appeared out of nowhere, and that nobody knew where he came from (and labeled as an independent). When his opponents realized what was at stake if they won a match against Clipperton, they did not play seriously at all since nobody wanted to be the one to beat him and cause his subsequent fatality.
Then there is the section which describes everyone's non-interaction with Clipperton, except Mario. Everyone pretty much avoids Clipperton, almost pretending like he wasn't there, except for good ol' Mario: Mario's tottering around with lens-cases....and meets Clipperton, and finds Clipperton intriguing ....and hilarious, and is kind to him and seeks out his company, Clipperton's, or at any rate at least treats Clipperton like he EXISTS, whereas by late July everybody else's attitude toward Clipperton resembled that kind of stiffly conspicuous nonrecognition that e.g. accompanies farts at formal functions.
Clipperton doesn't fit in with everyone else for some reason. Does he actually play tennis that well? Is it something he faked in order to get attention? Or maybe he does play well, and maybe he is serious about staying #1 and the stress of not being #1 is so great that he knows he will not be able to handle it and so has a plan for a way out. In any case, something is mentally wrong with him, but instead of others seeking out his friendship and getting to know him, they ignore him. Except Mario. It was pretty sad, and yet DFW still injects a bit of humor in comparing him to a "fart at a formal function".
Kaycie wrote: "As per what the book was about, my conversation with my friend about it went something along the lines of:"Oh my goodness, I was laughing at your conversation, Kaycie!! Too funny. I think you did a pretty good job, though. I think I would have pretty much fumbled along the same lines. :)
Linda wrote: "I also enjoyed learning more of Don Gately, specifically the menial job he does in cleaning the Shattuck Shelter for Homeless Males. It is yukky, but he is there, gets the job done, and goes home...."Yes, Don is fast becoming my favourite character to read about, although DFW slips in a little reminder of the DuPlessis horror every time we (or he?) may be getting too fond of Don.
Re Clipperton, I don't think there's any way to know if he was a good player, because he never played. Presumably he was pretty good, or he wouldn't have started on the tournaments - unless he started this whole "my way or the die way" thing the first time he picked up a racket*. But he seems to me just to be in the story to comment on the craziness of hothousing young sports players, and maybe to show that there is some benefit in schools like ETA where some of the craziness is shaken out of them. In real life Clipperton would have been disqualified, no?
*I would usually have spelt this 'racquet', but I like the double meaning of 'tennis racket' in the context of this book :-)
I keep forgetting that there should be ties tot Hamlet in this book. Is anyone else seeing this? Have were just not gotten to it yet? I remember earlier I brought up a wild theory about Himselfs suicide trying to tie it in, but I don't know if i believe it.
I finished this section tonight! I have to be honest, this was my least favorite reading section so far. I didn't really feel engaged by any of it and found myself skimming a lot of the puppet show.One interesting thing was how, writing in the mid-90s, DFW's imagination turned out to be pretty accurate in describing the rise of streaming video services like Netflix and the "watch anything you want" entertainment model.
Eric Clipperton's story started out well, but I didn't really buy the resolution of players becoming suicidal when they reach their goals. Although the kid drinking the poisoned Nesquik and then inadvertantly killing his whole family definitely seemed reminiscent of what happened in the Saudi Medical Attache's house, so maybe there was a connection there I'm just not getting?
More than anything else, I think this section just made me impatient for some more integration of the storylines. I want to see the ETA crowd mix with the Ennet House crowd.
John, I agree with the storyline integration. I think that is one of my biggest problems with the last few sections. We have crossed the halfway point, but it seems like we are still setting stuff up...I want to see all of these random stories coming together and making a bit more sense, but I'm getting scared that it's not going to tie things in together as much as I'd hope in the end.
John wrote: "I want to see the ETA crowd mix with the Ennet House crowd."Yep. Me too.
I also was not fond of the puppet show - my least favorite section of the book so far.
Although the kid drinking the poisoned Nesquik and then inadvertantly killing his whole family definitely seemed reminiscent of what happened in the Saudi Medical Attache's house, so maybe there was a connection there I'm just not getting?
Hmmm...I see the similarity there that I didn't catch, so possibly there could be a connection. Or maybe that we are just trying to look for one?
One interesting thing was how, writing in the mid-90s, DFW's imagination turned out to be pretty accurate in describing the rise of streaming video services like Netflix and the "watch anything you want" entertainment model.
Definitely. I wonder how my understanding and perception of this aspectof the book would have been different if I had read this when first published. If envisioning these telecartridges and instant entertainment would have sounded far-fetched or hard to imagine? I mean, I went through most of college before the age of e-mail and the world-wide web. When I got my first e-mail address, it was still difficult to really understand how it all worked, funny as that sounds now! :) And that was back around the time this book was published - 1996. It's crazy to think how much has changed in those few (err...or maybe more than a few...) years.
John wrote: "Eric Clipperton's story started out well, but I didn't really buy the resolution of players becoming suicidal when they reach their goals. Although the kid drinking the poisoned Nesquik and then inadvertantly killing his whole family definitely seemed reminiscent of what happened in the Saudi Medical Attache's house, so maybe there was a connection there I'm just not getting?"I thought this scene was just over the top and not believable. How many people would even attempt mouth-to-mouth in this situation, rather than calling 911, even if trained? And would swallowed cyanide really transmit with the kind of dilution that was happening at the end of the line? Fond as she was of cyanide, I cannot see Agatha Christie proposing a plot as preposterous as this. I thought it must be some kind of allegory.
Linda wrote: "When I got my first e-mail address, it was still difficult to really understand how it all worked, funny as that sounds now! :) And that was back around the time this book was published - 1996."Yes! Me too. I worked in a university, so we had email before most people in the UK knew anything about it, but still, it was very new. I remember something called TCP, which in my childhood was a brand name for an antiseptic liquid for wounds, but also came to mean a method of sending written communications over phone lines :-)
Like you, I wonder what I would have thought of this book if I'd read it in 1996, but to be honest, I think I would have had more trouble understanding it than I do now. I don't think I would have finished it. I wouldn't have identified with the addicts - I can understand them better at my advanced age. And I would have been impatient with the length. So I am glad I didn't try to read it until now :-)
Rosemary wrote: "I thought this scene was just over the top and not believable. How many people would even attempt mouth-to-mouth in this situation, rather than calling 911, even if trained?"Yeah, this scene was totally over the top, but I just took it as a matter of course for this book. It's funny, this book can be so completely realistic in terms of what someone might be thinking, or the atmosphere at an AA meeting, or many other examples, but on the other hand have instances like this where it's so over the top that I'm shaking my head and laughing. Like DFW needed a break from the reality of some of his writing that he needed to fit in some of these short exaggerated stories.
Yes it's true there is a weird but somehow complementary mix of realism and unrealism in this book :-)
Rosemary wrote: "Linda wrote: "I also enjoyed learning more of Don Gately, specifically the menial job he does in cleaning the Shattuck Shelter for Homeless Males. It is yukky, but he is there, gets the job done, ..."Clipperton and First Puppet Show
This whole section was absurd ( I did laugh out loud), but what I thought interesting was how the Clipperton section follows the first puppet show, and how the puppet film was an allusion to this glock wielding character's episode; essentially comparing Johnny Gentle to Eric Clipperton...Did I get this right?
I thought this particular line may help clear up some of the confusion surrounding Clipperton's tennis prowess...Clipperton's an OK player, nothing spectacular but also not like absurdly out of place at a regional-grade tourney...(408).
Hal
So at this point, Hal has only smoked pot on four separate occasions, and already finding himself sinking, emotionally, into a kind of distracted funk. Not to mention the sugar cravings are also not subsiding, having consumed his fourth chocolate cannoli in half an hour (410-411).
I actually enjoyed the next bit in the puppet film depicting the genesis of the Interlace and Waste Disposal Method. I do see, however, how it can be a very dry section.
Steeply & Marathe
A couple of things here...
Marathe, since the beginning, has always pointed out how Steeply is an unattractive women with the free floating breasts, masculine arms, and having feet that were broad and yellow-nailed, hairy and trollesque...the ugliest supposedly female feet of his experience (419). In every single segment with these two, Marathe has always said something off color about Helen Steeply's appearance...It just makes me think what Orin saw in her during their interview during W6?
Steeply goes to extremes for some of his undercover portrayals i.e. shaving his head and having his teeth removed I'm guessing for the role of Hare Krishna, or somebody. Marathe makes reference here as well, alluding to Steeply having a masochistic nature, that the humiliation of it all pacifies some internal vacuous space within him...the more grotesque or unconvincing he seemed like to be as a disguised persona the more nourished and actualized his deep parts felt (420)-which Marathe doesn't seem to understand-is it humility he doesn't comprehend?
I loved Steeply's soliloquy on page 423 about American dreams and ideals. He goes on to say, we want choice....to freely love and be loved and then he says irregardless of whether .... Yeah, I checked out after "irregardless." He seemed so poignant and credible at this point to then say "irregardless?" Leads me to believe he was blowing smoke, but what would it matter to Marathe who wouldn't have known the difference since Steeply's Quebecois French was better than Marathe's English?
The exchange about the U.S. value system anybody who derives an increase in pleasure from somebody else's pain is a deviant...and is thereby excluded from the community of everybody's right to pursue their own best pleasure to pain ratio, the soup aux pois, and free will and choice, were so poignant. Marathe seemed to be equating this discussion to something else, the Entertainment, maybe...As if he knew something?
Linda wrote: "I also enjoyed learning more of Don Gately, specifically the menial job he does in cleaning the Shattuck Shelter for Homeless Males. It is yukky, but he is there, gets the job done, and goes home...."this particular shelter was just bottom of the barrel wasn't it...Good grief. I'll leave the obvious reference, found in the name, to Nicola...She seems to enjoy saying and pointing out this subject matter. LoL!
Everyone pretty much avoids Clipperton, almost pretending like he wasn't there, except for good ol' Mario
I think of the interaction between the USS Millicent and Mario here for the sole purpose of bringing to light Mario's mentality. He was unable to process what happened to him, by means of the USS Millicent, was wrong. He's so innocent and completely unwearied, I wouldn't have expected anybody else, but Mario to befriend Clipperton.
Ami wrote: "I'll leave the obvious reference, found in the name, to Nicola...She seems to enjoy saying and pointing out this subject matter. LoL!"Ha! You're right, and I didn't pay attention to the name at all. :D
I think of the interaction between the USS Millicent and Mario here for the sole purpose of bringing to light Mario's mentality.
I hadn't thought of why this scene was here, but I think you're right, Ami. I was wondering if we would see USS Millicent in any other relevant scenes, but it doesn't matter because she has served her purpose well in this one.
Ami wrote: "what I thought interesting was how the Clipperton section follows the first puppet show, and how the puppet film was an allusion to this glock wielding character's episode; essentially comparing Johnny Gentle to Eric Clipperton...Did I get this right?"Hmmm...I would have to go back and review this section. I think I was so unenthusiastic while reading the puppet show, that I might have zoned out a bit. But you might be onto something here. I'm curious what others think of this.
This was a very short section 40 pages or so. Am I missing something?There wasn't much new stuff here, it was just building on what has already come up. The obvious exception of course was the story about Eric Clipperton which I found tragic but I confess I don't understand?
Linda wrote: "The political talk and puppet show are definitely the slog sections for me. I was dismayed to find that we had more of the puppet show to watch."I actually really like these - I've been wanting to know what the guff is with the politics and now I know. Well, I know Mario's version of it anyway. And we have the conversation between the two agents which are also filling in the corners.
The bits I did find a bit boring I guess was the history lesson re the setting up of Interlace. It wasn't too bad but I've definitely read better parts.
Kaycie wrote: As per what the book was about, my conversation with my friend about it went something along the lines of:Me: "Well, its really about addiction...err...the seeking of happiness and how that can lead to addiction, and the fine line between 'enough' and 'too much'...and I think its going to go into the role of technology and entertainment in people's search for happiness (The Entertainment), and might comment on how technology turns people into addicted zombies...but I really don't quite know yet."
Friend's response: "you are almost half way through an 1100 page monster book, and you don't quite know what its about yet?"
Me: **whimpers** "Its an adventure? Maybe??" ."
Hahaha!
When I discuss with my friends I basically gibber with enthusiasm.
Kaycie wrote: "I keep forgetting that there should be ties tot Hamlet in this book. Is anyone else seeing this? Have were just not gotten to it yet? I remember earlier I brought up a wild theory about Himselfs..."I've been looking for them but I think they are subtle. I haven't wanted to go looking on the internet for them in case I get spoilered. Once I've finished I'll go hunting :-)
Rosemary wrote:I thought this scene was just over the top and not believable. How many people would even attempt mouth-to-mouth in this situation, rather than calling 911, even if trained? And would swallowed cyanide really transmit with the kind of dilution that was happening at the end of the line? Fond as she was of cyanide, I cannot see Agatha Christie proposing a plot as preposterous as this. I thought it must be some kind of allegory. "I just saw this as a joke - I wasn't taking it seriously.
Ami wrote:Linda wrote: "I also enjoyed learning more of Don Gately, specifically the menial job he does in cleaning the Shattuck Shelter for Homeless Males. It is yukky, but he is there, gets the job done, and goes home...."this particular shelter was just bottom of the barrel wasn't it...Good grief. I'll leave the obvious reference, found in the name, to Nicola...She seems to enjoy saying and pointing out this subject matter. LoL!"
Actually I missed this. Thanks for pointing it out!
I know it is too early to make any definitive conclusions, but still the whole idea of interpretation is only viable when we find certain explanations for phenomena we are not given direct explanations. The more we read, the more questions are being answered, but even more are being asked. The explanations we come up with are necessary to sustain the flow of reading; otherwise, it would have been impossible. So what are the tentative answers we have found?
Happy reading and and discussion.