Shakespeare Fans discussion
Group Readings
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Measure for Measure Act 1, Nov 20
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Act 2, Nov 27
Act 3, Dec 4
Act 4, Dec 11
Act 5, Dec 18
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I'm starting today this afternoon and looking forward to seeing others here.
Now, good my dear Candy, I thank you and "take thy commision".Yes me too, looking forward to this discussion in the same vein of knowing little about this play.
Now having perused the 'Persons Represented' list; and it is revealing and amusing:
Lucio, a Fantastic, immediately caught my eye.
A pair of friars and a simple constable named Elbow. Constable Elbow as the arm of the law I presume.
Oh and Froth, a foolish gentleman and, not unusually,
Clown (is that his/her name?) a servant to
Mrs/Mistress Overdone, a bawd.
Now it slips my mind just what Shakey means by 'a bawd', and this one's 'Overdone' and has a servant named? Clown, so obviously some of the serious matters to come will be coated with fun.
And I forgot, Barnardine, a dissolute prisoner - intriguing, the idea of a prisoner that is dissolute, to me at least.I imagine he might have some droll lines to dispence.
That's not everyone of course but simply the cast that are not lords and ladies, and who by their names and descriptions seem interesting or curious.
JamesD wrote: "Now, good my dear Candy, I thank you and "take thy commision".Yes me too, looking forward to this discussion in the same vein of knowing little about this play.
Now having perused the 'Persons Rep..."
From John D.
To Shakespeare the term Bawd meant a procurer, a brothel keeper, a manager of prostitutes, and also a general bad character without necessarily any sexual misbehavour being involved. From this came the adjective bawdy such as bawdy-house, a brothel, and to live in bawdry which is a sexual relationship outside marriage
There are two characters in Shakespeare for whom Bawd is used as a personal name: Mistress Overdone in Measure for Measure who is called Bawd, and the wife of Pandar a brothel keeper in the play Pericles. Others who fill the role may be described as bawd but it is not a personal name.
The term Bawd gets quite wide use: In as you like it Touchstone accuses Corin, a shepherd, of being a bawd because he breeds from his sheep: ‘That is another simple sin in you, to bring
the ewes and the rams together, and to offer to get your living by the copulation of cattle; to be bawd to a bell-wether’
Hamlet calls King Claudius: ‘Bloody, bawdy villain!
Remorseless, treacherous, lecherous, kindless villain!’
In all of Shakespeare the term bawd is used 129 times
Count me in! Have never read MFM, looking forward to this!
John wrote: To Shakespeare the term Bawd meant a procurer, a brothel keeper, a manager of prostitutes, and also a general bad character without necessarily any sexual misbehavour being involved. From this came the adjective bawdy such as bawdy-house, a brothel..."Judging from Act 1, it is my guess that the brothel will be quite important to the play. We already have the dichotomy of the nunnery and the bawdy house, with the Duke apparently in conflict over the lack of morality in Vienna. This should be interesting!
It does seem rather harsh, to execute a man for getting his fiance' pregnant. I wonder if it is based in any real laws of the time?
In the 10 years I've been in S fans (10 years! how time flies ...) I've never suggested a play for the next read which has been taken up. Never that is until now, when I suggested M4M to Candy, and find it is the end-of-year read for 2019. It is, and has been for many years, my favourite among all the plays. I am nervous of adding any comments, as they could turn so easily into spoilers. I am very interested to see a familiar group here, with Candy, JamesD and Christine admitting not knowing it well, and I'll be very interested to see what they make of it.Anyway, I'm reading along.
"It does seem rather harsh, to execute a man for getting his fiance' pregnant," says Christine. And of course we can make the connection with S himself, whose firstborn must have been conceived out of wedlock, as he married at the end of November and Susannah was born the following May. Angelo might have condemned S to death as well as Claudio.
Martin wrote: "And of course we can make the connection with S himself, whose firstborn must have been conceived out of wedlock, as he married at the end of November and Susannah was born the following May...."Ahh, Martin, that is quite interesting! I do believe that S made at least some commentary of his own life in some of the plays... how could he NOT? No one really knows the exact circumstances of Anne Hathaway and the so-called "shotgun wedding".
HOWEVER...
I once did some sleuthing on the wedding, and I found out that S went through quite a bit of trouble to get Anne to the church on time. It was November. The couple were required to formally declare their intent to marry for three weeks prior, in public, at church before the actual wedding would be permitted. S found himself in a precarious position -- because at end of November, Advent and Christmas were quick approaching. The whole month of December would be shut down to weddings, so he did not have time to do his 3 weeks of declaration at church. (And presumably, Anne was growing bigger as days went by.) Normally such a wedding would not be permitted.
But somehow or another, the young Shakes got his way. (Bribery perhaps??) The wedding took place before bride Anne started "showing" her pregnancy too much.
I just love this kind of research! And so far I am liking this play. Thanks, Martin, for recommending it!!
As I get older I find myself liking Shakespeare's later plays, the "problem" plays, more and more, and M4M is one of my favorites.If you can get a hold of the BBC's 1979 version w/ Kate Nelligan and the actor who played Admiral Piet in Star Wars, I'd recommend it: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0077920/...
I'm going to have to pull my copy off the shelf and read Act I.
PS - While finding the imdb page for the BBC production, I saw that there's an adaptation w/ Hugo Weaving that came out recently - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8846706/... - has anyone seen it? Is it any good?
Christine wrote: "Martin wrote: "And of course we can make the connection with S himself, whose firstborn must have been conceived out of wedlock, as he married at the end of November and Susannah was born the follo..."Christine wrote: "Martin wrote: "And of course we can make the connection with S himself, whose firstborn must have been conceived out of wedlock, as he married at the end of November and Susannah was born the follo..."
Before any marriage could take place the "Banns" had to be published in the parish church on three successive sundays. the Banns involved a declaration of intent to marry with a declaration of freedom from any impediment and an invitation to anyone else who might know of an impediment to come forward or "forever hold their peace". Furthermore there was a prohibition on publishing Banns during Lent or Advent. Application was made in Shakespeare's case to the Bishop of Worcester's Consistory court for a special licence for marriage during the prohibited time by friends of the Hathaway family Fulke Sandells and John Rychardson. The records concerning this show variation in names. The bond entered into by Fulke Sandells and John Rychardson for the obtaining of a licence names William Shagspere and Anne hathwey, while the register entry made upon the issue of the licence names William Shaxpere and Anne Whateley. The Licence itself has been lost.The involvement of senior associates of Anne's father could be taken as an indication of some pressure bring brought to bear on young William.
Thanks so much for the extra research notes, Christine and John.Terence, I have that BBC version, with Kenneth Colley as the Duke, and the late great Tim Pigott-Smith as Angelo, and I think it is outstanding. I've seen M4M twice on stage over the years. One, an amateur production, had a particularly lively Lucio who rather stole the show. M4M works great on stage and I guess is not regularly done only because there is no long tradition of a performance history.
Right now I'm reading it in my "collected works" edition of 1823 (I gave away my modern edition some years back), which is amusing as it gives occasional, and slightly obvious, notes on the poetic sections, but refuses to help with the bawdy talk of Lucio and his witty friends. So I'm left to guess with the costs of catching VD:
gent 2: three thousand dollars a year.
gent 1: Ay, and more.
Lucio: A French crown more.
"Dollars" is a pun on "dolours" (sorrows) as in The Tempest, and I'm guessing, as I can't remember, that a "French crown" is slang for some sort of blister. Some of Lucio's quick fire responses are very puzzling,
"If could speak so wisely under an arrest, I would send for certain of my creditors."
But I did get this eventually, (thanks to Sparknotes!). He means that if when arrested for debt he could talk as cleverly as Claudio, he'd call for the people he owed money to and perhaps be able to talk his way out of it. "for certain of" must mean "certainly to" and not "a certain group of".
In the second scene I was puzzled by the staging. The clown sees Juliet enter with Claudio, but she does not speak, and Lucio and Claudio discuss her as if she's absent. I think the arrest is meant to be a crowd scene. The clown and bawd don't exit but stand among the crowd, with Juliet who is following secretly. The crowding suggests a change of scene which makes Lucio's reappearance look like the end of a search, rather than coming back to where he started from.The names are a puzzle too. In my edition, and JamesD's, the clown is called "Clown". Usually he is named "Pompey", which is what he's called in the rest of the play, except here, where the bawd calls him "Thomas Tapster". The clown later says his full name is "Pompey Bum" which sounds like an invention. My guess is that "Pompey" is a nickname. There is a Thomas in the next scene, "Friar Thomas", but he is never addressed by his name. The same is true of "Duke Vincenzo", the name "Vincenzo" is never used, so in some editions he is "Vincenzo", in others (and mine) just "Duke".
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It's great to see so many people here too. Yay!
Love the comments so far....
James the list of characters reminds me of many times we observe the strange, funny and whimsical seeming names in Shakespeare. What could be funnier than a sex worker called Overdona or Overdone?
I prefer the list of characters on Wikipedia as it does not shy away from the fact that we have a couple of sex workers in this play.
Shakespeare portrays so many types of jobs and occupations in his work which I think is one of the many reasons why he is still read and in popular culture.
I am loving the dialogue so much.
Let me see what I cn find here....to look at....
Mod
1560s, clowne, also cloyne, "man of rustic or coarse manners, boor, peasant," a word of obscure origin; the original form and pronunciation are uncertain. Perhaps it is from Scandinavian dialect (compare Icelandic klunni "clumsy, boorish fellow;" Swedish kluns "a hard knob; a clumsy fellow," Danish klunt "log, block"), or from Low German (compare North Frisian klönne "clumsy person," Dutch kloen). OED describes it as "a word meaning originally 'clod, clot, lump', which like those words themselves ..., has been applied in various langs. to a clumsy boor, a lout."
The theory that it is from Latin colonus "colonist, farmer" is less likely, but awareness of the Latin word might have influenced the sense development in English.
Meaning "professional fool, professional or habitual jester" is c. 1600. "The pantomime clown represents a blend of the Shakes[pearean] rustic with one of the stock types of the It[alian] comedy" [Weekley]. Meaning "contemptible person" is from 1920s. Fem. form clowness attested from 1801.
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Mariana, betrothed to Angelo
Juliet, beloved of Claudio, pregnant with his child
Francisca, a nun.
Mistress Overdone, the manager of a thriving Viennese brothel
Vincentio, The Duke, who also appears disguised as Friar Lodowick
Angelo, the Deputy, who rules in the Duke's absence
Escalus, an ancient lord
Claudio, a young gentleman, brother to Isabella
Pompey Bum, a pimp who acquires customers for Mistress Overdone
Lucio, a "fantastic", a foppish young nobleman
Two gentlemen, friends to Lucio
The Provost, who runs the prison
Thomas and Peter, two friars
Elbow, a simple constable
Froth, a foolish gentleman of fourscore pound a year
Abhorson, an executioner
Barnardine, a dissolute prisoner
a Justice, friend of Escalus
Varrius (silent role), a friend of the Duke
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Why, 'twas a commandment to command the captain and
all the rest from their functions: they put forth
to steal. There's not a soldier of us all, that, in
the thanksgiving before meat, do relish the petition
well that prays for peace.
Second Gentleman
I never heard any soldier dislike it.
LUCIO
I believe thee; for I think thou never wast where
grace was said.
Second Gentleman
No? a dozen times at least.
First Gentleman
What, in metre?
LUCIO
In any proportion or in any language.
First Gentleman
I think, or in any religion.
LUCIO
Ay, why not? Grace is grace, despite of all
controversy: as, for example, thou thyself art a
wicked villain, despite of all grace.
First Gentleman
Well, there went but a pair of shears between us.
LUCIO
I grant; as there may between the lists and the
velvet. Thou art the list.
For me...this is just some fantastic writing. I can't keep up and I love the struggle of them being philosophical and then demanding a logic and being funny.
It begins as deep and First Gentleman is saying how could a soldier pray for something that would put him out of a job.
In a way....this might be foreshadowing of a thesis for this play. Would a sex worker pray for celibacy? Or would we contest our idea of virtue...that would them threaten our reproduction and survival? How can we pray for virtue and chastity while we have sexual urges that demand sex work industry or family lineage to continue?
Then the argument foes from philosophy to taking the piss out of the second gentleman.
I'm interested in "there went but a pair of shears between us" (we disagree in thought?)(was this a common saying?)
"as there may be between the lists and the velvet" is this a theatrical divide? Or alluding to monarchy? Again is this an adage of the time period?
This seems that although they are all gentleman there is a struggle to understand class and position....or they are insulting lower classes or working people. That their jobs may prevent them from praying for things that makes life more virtuous...?
I love this from the First Gentleman who seems to rally his thoughts...
"And thou the velvet: thou art good velvet; thou'rt
a three-piled piece, I warrant thee: I had as lief
be a list of an English kersey as be piled, as thou
art piled, for a French velvet. Do I speak
feelingly now?"
The feeling...speaking with feeling also mirrors the feeling of velvet. He compares military clothing with aristocrats clothing. And I think...could it also be the velvet of theatrical curtains?
Count me in! I have never read Measure For Measure! Looking forward to getting back into my love for Shakespeare!
Martin wrote: "Thanks so much for the extra research notes, Christine and John.Terence, I have that BBC version, with Kenneth Colley as the Duke, and the late great Tim Pigott-Smith as Angelo, and I think it is..."
A French Crown was a bald head resulting from venereal disease. The French and the English maintained a certain rivalry regarding nomenclature of venereal disease. The English called it the French Disease and the French called it the English Disease.
John D.
the French called it the English Disease
A bolt of velvet would come from the loom with support strips down the side which was base cloth without any pile. This was the portion which was held by the loom. It was called the List
Welcome Laura-Anne!Yes, "list" meant "edge" or "limit", as in line 4 of the whole play,
the lists (=limits) of all advice / My strength can give you.
I love Lucio and his friends trading these good natured insults. I take "there went but a pair of shears between us" to mean "you and I only differ by a hair's breadth". So Lucio thinks of a tailor's shears, he's the velvet, his friend the cheap edging, or lining. It's a bit like "you're the Mary, I'm the Rhoda" in Romy and Michelle, which I've also never understood!
There are parallels between this and the first scene I think. The references to money and religion, to the inner versus the outer man. So in the second scene we get the Ten Commandments and grace before meals, in the first Jesus's words of the light hidden under a bushel ("Heaven doth with us as we with torches do, / Not light them for themselves"), and other echoes of the sermon on the mount, from which of course the title of the play comes.
Mod
"You're the Mary, I'm the Rhoda" refers to the friendship......in the tv show "The Mary Tyler Moore Show"
great example...for those who might not know it here is a little article on it...
'However, I somehow missed the fact that when Mary got to that studio apartment, there was already someone in it. Valerie Harper’s Rhoda, the wisecracking sidekick who was already living the independent life Mary was trying for . In the pilot, Mary takes Rhoda’s apartment and becomes the star of the series.
It wasn’t until years later, during the fight scene in Romy in Michelle’s High School Reunion, when the two female leads argue over which of them is Mary and which of them is Rhoda that I realized there were two central female figures to the story. The fact that it was possible to be “the Rhoda” had never even occurred to me.
“I’m the Mary,” Michelle’s character screams at Romy’s in the movie. Romy is horrified.
“That’s ridiculous, Michelle, you’re the Rhoda. You’re the Jewish one,” she replies.
But Michelle means “cuteness-wise,” she’s the Mary.
And goddamn it, Mary was cute. Mary Tyler Moore’s character was the effervescent, plucky, determined-yet-polite career woman I wanted to be. She looked amazing in a plaid pantsuit and did an important job in a big city. Her life was a choice, and she was living it to prove something to herself without obsessing too much over how that choice might look to other people.'
'In the movie, Romy is the Rhoda—the antithesis of the Mary. Deeply insecure, worried about the way her life appears from the outside—unmarried and struggling in an unimpressive job—exactly the way Rhoda was in the series. Mary and Rhoda are living very similar lives, except Rhoda is never quite sure if she has made the right choices and wonders out loud if she’s going to make it after all. She’s constantly comparing her life to Mary’s, worried that it doesn’t measure up.
“You have the kind of job Gloria Steinem wants us to have,” she tells Mary in an episode where she’s visited the newsroom on a break from her job as a window dresser at a department store. Charming, brave-yet-vulnerable Mary was aspirational; Rhoda was the reality of the insecurity built into living a life that didn’t quite fit the trajectory of the life one was supposed to have, even if it was the one she wanted.'
https://themuse.jezebel.com/im-the-rh...
And just so we don't just walk away with the story being about competing to be a "queen bee"...this suggests its a feminist classic...
https://i-d.vice.com/en_us/article/yw...
Mod
Maybe I should read that sermon huh?
It's tough being the only pagan here reading Shakespeare.
That is great! I never saw this Mary Tyler Moore show, but will hunt it out on youtube to get the Romy/Michelle argument clear in my head at last. M4M will have to wait a bit ...Meanwhile the title comes from,
Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
(Authorised version)
If you think about it, it is the perfect title. We have already met three magistrates in the play, the Duke, Escalus, and Angelo. The magistrate measures the offence and passes judgment. What if the magistrate were similarly measured?
Candy wrote: "Ah, Great example!!!"You're the Mary, I'm the Rhoda" refers to the friendship......in the tv show "The Mary Tyler Moore Show"
great example...for those who might not know it here is a little art..."
I must be missing something. I don't see the relevance of this to our play/ John D.
Candy wrote: "Ah, Great example!!!"You're the Mary, I'm the Rhoda" refers to the friendship......in the tv show "The Mary Tyler Moore Show"."
Thanks, Candy! Definitely relatable. What I love about studying S plays is the modern cultural references that always seem to come up. I loved the MTM show. However, I still say it is a bit ambiguous. I always thought Rhoda was the cooler one -- she was edgy, rebellious, funny, and not afraid to offend people!
John, don't worry, here in S fans everything is relevant to S, whether it's Ovid's Metamorphoses, Plutatch's lives or the MTM show!No but seriously, a 21st century reader not getting Gent 2's "And thou the velvet: thou art good velvet" is a bit like me not getting Romy's "Michelle, you’re the Rhoda". I've seen the Romy and Michelle movie many times, I've found the short scene where they argue by the side of the road one of the great comic episodes in it, and yet I've never known who Mary and Rhoda are. Similarly we can relish S's humour even without a full knowledge of the cultural background. (like the "stewed prunes" coming up in Act 2.)
Martin wrote: "John, don't worry, here in S fans everything is relevant to S, whether it's Ovid's Metamorphoses, Plutatch's lives or the MTM show!No but seriously, a 21st century reader not getting Gent 2's "An..."
Thanks Martin for your attempted explanation but I still don't get it. Ovid was used extensively by Shakespeare as a source for the mythology in the plays. It was one of his favourite sources. Plutarch is also relevant. He used it for information re the life of Mark Antony, and Timon of Athens, among others. I have to admit that I'm not familiar the MTM stuff and nothing I've seen here has done anything to produce enlightenment. Shakespeare covered so
many aspects of Humanity that it becomes a little too easy to hang virtually anything however vague the connection on him.
John D.
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I suggest using as much sensitivity to each other in our language as possible.
Our purpose in participating in these group discussions is to connect with each other, share our own research and ideas...sometimes historical, sometimes personal.
But at no time, John D, is anyone here responsible for your demand..."and nothing I've seen here has done anything to produce enlightenment." We do not tone police each other here and do not accept a rating system of our posts.
I find enlightenment does not come from other people, but rather from self-reflection...compassion and sharing. Let's move forward with some sensitivity in the way we speak to each other.
It's no ones role to be smarter, explanatory or "correct" or wrong...this is a free-wheeling forum and discussion. Sometimes we use historical accounts and sometimes we use pop culture. We are free to find meaning or reject meaning....but there is no expectation placed on any of us here to explain.
Martin and Christine, nor I, were not "attempted explaination".. but sincerely sharing examples of character interaction (through a comedy movie) that is similar to the one excerpted above. Using a contemporary example sometimes is very helpful to understand Shakespeare.
All of us find different references that have meaning for us.
And now...let's see if I CAN explain why the comparison between two very different genres and literary works is useful....
In comparing the dialogue.... in M4M to Romy and Michelle what is the connection? Well...it's about status battles. Some women sometimes have underlying ideas of who is an alpha female. I have also seen an hilarious episode of "Vanderpimp Rules" where Jax, Tom Sandoval and Tom Schawar all in their confessional interviews (reality tv format) claim to believe they themself are the alpha male. But Jax insists he is. It's ridiculous and so funny. And so true for some people who define themselves by their perception of status, even in their close friendships, due to living in a superficial society.
So with the two women in the movie "Romy and Michelles' Hogh School Reunion" what happens is...each girl believes she is Mary Tyler Moore and the other woman is Rhoda. What this means is that they...along with many in our society believe that Mary has the "higher status" defined by her job, her looks and her taste. However, as Christine so clearly shares...(not attempts to explain) For her Rhoda was a great woman too.
The idea that women friendships have a "more beautoful" person, and therefore is "the leader" or "queen bee" is a sad but true part of shallow lives. Rhoda was extremely witty, in that fast intelligent way very few people are...and her fashion and design sensibility was on point. She had a great job.
But in our superficial society Mary was perceived by man...even other women like Michell and Romy!!! to be "top dog"
So the discussion I excerpted from the play....and the following dialogue has a lot of inside jokes, and sparring about who is the superior or alpha guy.
And that is why the comparison between Romy and Michelle is so apt and useful...IF one has seen the movie.
However....I also think it's amazing that Martin had no context for the Mary Tyler Moore show....did not know what the source of Mary versus Rhoda was...yet the movie scene is so successful.
In the same way I didn't know M4M came from the Bible and yet....the play still is meaningful and the idea of such comparisons. We measure each other all the time....as to what our own status might be in society...or some of us rejecting that approach to relationships as something to compete or measure!
So the Gentlemen are measuring each other...and arguing about their own worth and status. So did Romy and Michelle.
That is why it is relevant to this discussion, that is, if the cultural currency is meaningful to an individual. If one is not familiar with the contemporary movie then it won't be.
Oh! Candi- what a perfect perspective to have about this play! I love that Shakespeare always had a great theme to help us all communicate and understand each other a lot better!
I am starting late with this selection, but I will try to catch up .
I have been missing Shakespeare in my world since my Father passed away.
I am ready to jump back into reading with friends again.
Thank you all for being so interesting!
Dawn
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Glad to see you here. Company helps with grief recovery I like to believe.
Isabella: I speak not as desiring more;But rather wishing a more strict restraint
Upon the sisterhood, the votarists of Saint Clare.
I have been reading a bit about Saint Clare and the various orders of nuns who follow her Rule. I am no judge of such things, but I cannot imagine anything more strict. I did not know they had such an immense history, from the beginning of the 13th century to the present day. There were St Clare nunneries in England until the Reformation, after which they re-established themselves in France.
This New Yorker review article I found interesting,
https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-...
Candy wrote: "Yes, John I'm sure it is a little confusing to wonder why the Mary Tyler Moore tv show might have relevance here. Let's not assume or project onus on any of us to provide explanations attempted or ..."I'm sorry Candy if my sharp language offended anybody. I rather thought that debate involved statement and counter statement at times a little on the sharp side rather than everybody simply agreeing with everything everyone else said. Martin has just asked me how I know that a "stewed prune" was a prostitute. I was happy to explain. Instead of Mary and Rhoda I would prefer to consider Isabella and Portia. A similar pair; both of them made impassioned pleas for mercy but showed none when it came their turn. When Claudio pleads with Isabella to save his life, she turns on him and denounces him in no uncertain terms declaring "I'll pray a thousand prayers for thy death, No word to save thee." (2.1)
Portia tries unavailingly to move Shylock to show mercy on Antonio but when he is in her power she brings the full force of the law down on him, even to having him executed unless the Duke spares him,
John, I would welcome a long post from you comparing Isabella to Portia. Thanks to the generosity of the goodreads site we are able to discuss any manner of things without needing to worry about filling up a limited space.But I must remind you of the spoiler rules. The Claudio / Isabella meeting is in Act 3, and should not be mentioned before the Act 3 thread is up.
Candy wrote: "Yes, John I'm sure it is a little confusing to wonder why the Mary Tyler Moore tv show might have relevance here. Let's not assume or project onus on any of us to provide explanations attempted or ..."Thanks Candy! What a perfect and articulate explanation.
I would like to humbly and kindly remind everyone -- Shakespeare is, above all, a playwright for the people. There are enough stories about groundlings paying a penny for their standing room only at the Globe to prove this. Illiterate folks loved him. I bring this up to make a correlation between today's "pop culture" (i.e. Mary Tyler Moore show and Romy & Michelle, among others.) Shakespeare was never the highbrow writer so many people imagine him to be nowadays. And also the reason why so many will not attempt to read him... Which is actually sad.
But yes, he is the poet for the people and I believe his popularity was the pop culture of their day.
I frequently find a lot of pop culture references to the plays. They are timeless!
Martin wrote: "I have been reading a bit about Saint Clare and the various orders of nuns who follow her Rule. I am no judge of such things, but I cannot imagine anything more strict...."Definitely strict! I was raised Catholic, and one of my aunts was a Dominican cloistered nun. She lived in a convent in upstate New York, and we would go visit her in the summer.
My aunt wore a "habit", the nun's outfit that clothed her from head to toe. (In later years I was allowed to lift one, and I swear it must have weighed twenty pounds!) Of course, we never really got a good look at my aunt because she was always secluded behind the cloister, which indeed seemed to me like a cage or a prison.
Although we, the civilians, were supposedly not allowed behind the cloister bars, the nuns had a dumb waiter that spun around and delivered meals to visitors. Because I was a child, and small enough to ride on the dumb waiter, I was once put on there and so I actually went inside the cloister. (Looking back on this, I am sure it was probably breaking a million rules. My aunt must have had a sense of humor.) I was only allowed back there for a few minutes. But it is a fun story.
On a more serious side, the cloistered life was certainly grim, and took enormous dedication. My aunt told stories of sleeping on a straw bed. Their food was restricted, and at one point my aunt became so thin she developed health problems. Her hair (beneath the veil) began to fall out and she had to be taken to a doctor. After that they allowed her a little more food! (It was like a Catholic Papal Dispensation thing, very official... allowing the women more food. If you ever see the movie "Doubt" with Meryl Streep, where the nuns are given tiny portions of food, that is accurate!)
They did a lot of things that might be considered "self injury" and could be "offered up to God" as suffering. For example, my aunt would kneel on her own hands while praying, or lift her legs into a painful upright position while sitting in a chair. All physical suffering was considered something that could be offered to God as a sacrifice.
As horrifying as it must seem, there was some beauty to it. The meditation, the solitude, the music. The grandiose chapel of stained glass and statues that seemed to swallow us up when we went inside.
So yes, our Isabella is definitely in for a hard time if she becomes a full fledged Poor Clare! This makes the story all the more compelling.
Thanks, Martin, for the article!
Mod
I had a friend in Chicago when I first moved here who wrote to the vatican for permission to live away from his fellow priests....because he took a vow of poverty yet they ate the finest steaks and most expensive wine every night.
Mod
Yes, looking forward to hearing and discussing more about Isabella and Portia!
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I din't know that SISTER ACT was inside such a famous sect.
Candy wrote: " Christine, I do remember the movie DOUBT (my gosh what an amazing movie, I still talk about it. I love Viola Davis in everything she does but that is outstanding) how strict and stoic the nuns life was in it...and I do think they give a slight comparison to the decadent lifestyle of the priests...."Yes, Candy very true! Many of the priests did and do live in complete decadence. Another little family story -- my brother once worked for a liquor store in Chicago. His job was to make deliveries. Guess who had the biggest, most expensive orders each week? You guessed it -- rectories! Those priests were GUZZLERS. Yes, Doubt was quite accurate :-)
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Our general approach has been to focus plot, character development discussion to each relevant Act as we move through the plays.
We have five threads created and assigned to each Act.
You may need to refresh your browser to find each new topic or log in again to this site...in order to see each Act discussion thread.
Thanks!
Going back to Terence's post, I have now seen the BBC version of 1979 again, and yes, it is very good, although a bit dated and with some annoying cuts. One of the nicest things in it is to see John McEnery playing Lucio. He was an actor who never really achieved his potential, and his obituary of the time suggested a private life that was pretty crazy, which must have made it easy slipping into the role of Lucio.
S fans may remember him as Mercutio in the Zeffirelli Romeo and Juliet.
Christine: your notes on Catholicism extremely interesting. Expect some questions for the later acts.
Ask away, Martin! I'll answer what I can!I am going to try to get a hold of the 1979 M4M. I am a huge fan of Zeffirelli's Romeo and Juliet, and I loved Mercutio in that movie. John McEnery would make a good Lucio.
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I can't believe it but I found a copy of Abby Reese's book about the Staint Claire nuns and specificcaly from the article Martin shared in the New Yorker.
Did I ordr this book during our discussion here? Or did I coincidently buy it at a book sale in 2018? really don't know but its just so strange.
I can't believe I would have bought it in November and not remember doing that!!!
Plus...this seems to be a review copy...no publishing details or ISBN.
I never noticed that thephoto in the New Yorker article, which is the cover of this book is two nuns sawing wood. The colours I thought it was an old painting.
I am so deeply moved as I've spent the last couple days reading these personal narratives of the women in this strict order have chosen...and why they have dedicated their lives to God. It is a really special book and eminded me of this discussion last year.
It is fascinating that the order is 800 years old...and would have been old when Shakespeare wrote about it...to think it sits on both sides of that time line if so amazing to me.
Strange coincidence or did I forget I ordered this book? Don't know but what a great experience reading about these women has been this week.
Of course part of the reason it is so compelling is that these nuns are living not that far away from my quarantine lifestyle rfor the past three months.
That is a very nice story, Candy.Meanwhile, and during most of this time of plague, I have been reading Anatole France, that great forgotten worthy admired by Proust. (My interest in AF goes back nealy 40 years. Many of his books I have forgotten and I need to reread. He was a voluminous writer, and very scholarly.)
And right now I am on to "The Well of St Clare" ("Le Puits de Sainte Claire"), all set in Tuscany during the period after St Francis, the time of Cavalcanti, Dante, and the Guelphs versus the Ghibellines, which is a piece of history I know nothing about.
As the title suggests, St Clare herself is part of the background of the stories, so reading it constantly brings me back to the MfM read, and Christine's own account of her links with the cloistered life.
AF is full of fantasy, and in "The Revolt of the Angels" books go missing and reappear again because they are being taken from a library by angels who don't have access to them in heaven. Perhaps that explains the surprise appearance of your book!
I did wonder what your final feeling on MfM was, having now read it. To me it is S's greatest comedy, but the historical judgements have been very mixed and often very negative. Of course one should skip to Act 5 thread here . . . .
Candy wrote: "An odd thing...I don't know how or why...but I was cleaning my reading area the other day and I pulled out a bunch of books so I could dut.I can't believe it but I found a copy of Abby Reese's bo..."
How awesome! Glad everyone found interesting things to read during quarantine!
We can begin discussions here for Measure for Measure. I'm pretty excited because I am not very familiar with this play.
I'll set up all the other threads for each act nowise we can proceed at our own paces...