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Infinite Jest
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Infinite Jest by D.F. Wallace, WEEK 7
I've got only another 15 pages left in this section. All I have to say so far is that the two AA stories told by the women were intense, gruesome and extremely visual. I needed a break after the first story, but was totally unprepared for the second story. DFW really knows how to describe scenes down to the very last detailed crumb.I was really pulled into the AA atmosphere, although this section was long, showcasing more very long paragraphs, I found it interesting and I felt like I was able to get some sense of what the members feel and go through while trying to stay sober.
And now we see that Joelle did make it to Ennet House, and Erdedy too (I think this is the first time he is mentioned since we first met him?)
Linda - I agree about the atmosphere of the AA meeting. It was a very long section, and it was very tough to plow through. I am, sort of, glad that I finished it because I learned something big about addiction from this section. Also, yes, this is the first time Erdedy is mentioned as far as I know since that first time. HOWEVER, this book is actually getting much harder to get through. I thought that once we got past that proverbial benchmark that it was going to start falling into place. In some places, it has, but in others the book has dragged on painfully further. I am also painfully aware that there is the very real possibility that loose ends aren't all getting wrapped up at the end of this book, which is contributing to my lack of motivation in picking this up each week for the readings.
From the lack of posts this week, it seems I am not the only one struggling now. Where are our previous IJ readers? Can someone jump in and inject a bit of life into our reading at this point or provide a bit of motivation? I think I am basically looking for someone to hold my hand or pat my back and tell me that I can make it through and things will get better.
It could also just be that the past two weeks readings have all taken place on the exact same day...its a lot of pages of Nov 8th, and all of them seem to be in excruciating detail.
Well, I finished this section last night. The AA section was long, but I didn't feel like I was plodding through it at all. The part I DID feel like I was plodding through was the description of Mario's film of the puppet show, which basically recapped the inauguration of President Gentle and the formation of O.N.A.N., if I'm not mistaken. Political stuff is always a stinger for me, even if it is in the form of a puppet show in which kids are able to understand. :) So some of this stuff was still a bit confusing to me.I've become more intrigued by Lyle down in the weight room and how he acts as some sort of consultant or prophet to the kids. It seems the kids need him and seek him out for guidance, and in return he subsists off of their sweat. Weird.
So, from what I've read about IJ, I am going to assume that not every thread gets tied up by the end. I guess for me I'm enjoying the reading as it occurs and I'm not necessarily looking towards a final "this is where everyone ended up" with this book, although at least a general sense of closure by the end would be nice.
I think a lack of posts by this point is typical. Some people might be behind and catch up later, or not post after the fact feeling they are too behind to contribute anything. And I think some people just don't follow through with the reading, or conversely read on ahead and don't go back to post as each week's thread goes up. It is frustrating and it would be nice to have more discussion. I, personally, don't do very well starting discussions on my own. I look forward to hearing others' thoughts and questions and using those as discussions points.
In any case Kaycie, I am continuing to read and post and will do so until the end of the book. So...YES (I am patting your back right now), you can make it through and things will get better!! :)
Kaycie, I am only finishing week 5 right now and posting when I have something to say, but I also think it would be wise to have a therapeutic thread, a thread where and when we can complain and grump about things, explaining why we are struggling or not struggling or how to improve the discussion. So far, where I am , the sense that all is coming together is there, but I think judging by your comments, it may not be so, and the complexity continues. I mean it should be so - it is one of the most challenging novels we have read so far, but I think we should also honestly tell each other that it is overwhelming, intriguing, and yeas, challenging, and we might feel better after all. Let me know if you think it is a good idea. We already have opened thread about footnotes, but we might have a thread where we are allowed to hate and love the book we are reading now.
Ha, yes, a therapeutic thread would be a good idea ... maybe we can share our "experience, strength and hope" there like at the AA meeting ...!I found the AA section a real page-turner and I was glad to see a coming-together of some of the characters there. Great that Joelle made it :) and I was happy to see Kate Gompert again.
After that I left it for a few days and then found the rest of the section more of a struggle. I appreciated having the political history as a puppet show - it did make it a little easier, although like Linda I still had trouble grasping it.
I noticed Marlon Bain's name popping up again, in the weights room - I wonder if we're ever going to meet this guy? - if indeed he's still alive...
Did anyone else pick up where Avril was thinking in one of the footnotes "how upperclass heads can roll [over the Eschaton game] ... without those heads including that of Hal, who - unlike, thank God, John - was identified at the scene" ... is that John Wayne? And if so why 'thank God' - just because he's ETA's star player? Because she and he are both Canadians? Or because there's something more personal going on?
Rosemary wrote: "Did anyone else pick up where Avril was thinking in one of the footnotes "how upperclass heads can roll [over the Eschaton game] ... without those heads including that of Hal, who - unlike, thank God, John - was identified at the scene" ... is that John Wayne? And if so why 'thank God' - just because he's ETA's star player? Because she and he are both Canadians? Or because there's something more personal going on?"I just went back and reread this section. I took it to mean that she is referencing John Wayne and that it's because he is "headed to Show". But I did make note that he is Canadian, so I'm not sure if this has anything to do with it or not. So, I guess I'm not much help in trying to answer this question...
Linda wrote: "In any case Kaycie, I am continuing to read and post and will do so until the end of the book. So...YES (I am patting your back right now), you can make it through and things will get better!! :) "Thanks, Linda! I'mm actually thinking I might do a bit better giving this book a break and getting behind with some of the other group members. People are commenting on threads several weeks old as they read, so maybe if I get behind the conversations will be enough to keep me going!
The weird thing is, I don't DISLIKE the book. I am really kind of neutral on it, but being neutral is really the worst for my motivation. If I liked it, I'd have no issues picking it up, and if I hated it (and was committed to reading it), I'd want to just finish it.
I also think this is a weird spot...the last two weeks of reading have consisted of three very long sections. In fact, we are still only partway through Mario's puppet show at the end of this section, and I really don't want to finish that. :-)
I'll keep up a bit and hopefully the motivation comes back! And if there is a therapeutic thread, I will go hang out there for a bit! :-)
So anyways, if someone asks you right now at 400 pages out of ~1000 what this book is about, what would you answer? That is a really hard question!
Kaycie wrote: "So anyways, if someone asks you right now at 400 pages out of ~1000 what this book is about, what would you answer?."I'd say it's about addiction. Or maybe, addiction and tennis. I certainly wouldn't want to get into explaining the Canada/Mexico/concavity thing ;-)
Hey Everyone, I have finally finished this section! For the next couple of days I am only one week behind :)Kaycie wrote: "Also, yes, this is the first time Erdedy is mentioned as far as I know since that first time.
"
Actually, Erdedy was mentioned in passing back when Ennet house was first introduced. I think it was around the time we read about Tiny Ewell's tattoo obsession. This is the first time he has been described in detail though.
I am definitely glad to see Joelle made it! It's somehow odd to see her in this setting. I wonder if she realizes she's right next door to E.T.A.?
I thought the AA section was brilliant, but man those two stories were disturbing and actually hard to get through just on an emotional level. It didn't seem too long to me - I am still really enjoying seeing the Ennet house characters develop their relationships. Don Gately has pulled into the lead as my favorite character in the book.
The political stuff was definitely a slog, although the headlines were great -- especially hilarious was the recurring mention of EPA officials stumbling over toxic dumps while playing softball. Then there was the one headline "THE ART OF FEDERAL STUMBLING: A WHOLE LOT OF SOFTBALL GOING ON" -- I actually laughed really hard at that! So funny.
Lyle's sweat-licking just seems more and more bizarre to me, although I really enjoyed his consultations with the students in this section. The one with LaMont Chu, about his envy of a famous tennis player, seemed especially insightful to me...particularly the paragraph beginning "You have been snared by the delusion that envy has a reciprocal."
I'm actually getting a little annoyed at Hal for all the times he notes that a difficult vocabulary word is or isn't actually what the character said. I realize Hal is gifted intellectually, but these notes are starting to sound a little condescending after the 3rd of 4th time he brings it up.
I was interested to read descriptions of two more of James' movies -- "The Joke" and "The Medusa v. The Odalisque". Both of these seem to follow the same theme of voyuerism, entertainment and the reasons we seek it. All leading up to his later production of The Entertainment, which seems like the "perfection" of these themes.
Overall this wasn't THE most compelling section to me, but it wasn't a total slog either. I will have to think about how I would describe what the book is about. That's a tough one. Maybe the overall theme is: "Do not attempt to pull to thyself a weight that is greater than thy own"...haha :)
Oh gosh, I haven't even mentioned the Eschaton chapter! That was in this section, wasn't it? Will have to come back later for that.
I must admit some of the names seem totally bizarre to me. Would a male person really be called LaMont? To me La is a feminine prefix ... but I am European, is it different in the States?
John wrote: "I wonder if she realizes she's right next door to E.T.A.?"Interesting thought! I wonder...
Don Gately has pulled into the lead as my favorite character in the book.
Yes, me too. And especially after reading the next two sections, if only because we get to know him a lot more.
Then there was the one headline "THE ART OF FEDERAL STUMBLING: A WHOLE LOT OF SOFTBALL GOING ON" -- I actually laughed really hard at that! So funny.
Ha ha! Yeah, that one was pretty funny. :)
John (JohnRed) | 241 comments Oh gosh, I haven't even mentioned the Eschaton chapter!
Uh....HELLO!! That was the best part of this section!! :D
Rosemary wrote: "Would a male person really be called LaMont? To me La is a feminine prefix ... but I am European, is it different in the States?"It doesn't sound odd to me at all. Yeah, "La" is technically feminine, but I guess here in the U.S., it can be used as part of a name, either male or female. I have certainly seen it used as part of male names here.
Rosemary wrote: "Would a male person really be called LaMont?"That's an interesting point -- It didn't seem feminine to me really -- it seemes more like a stereotypical "rich kid" name; like his parents want to make him seem snotty and intellectual. A Draco Malfoy type.
If he's an upper-class Boston native, it could be that he's named after the Lamont Library at Harvard?
Boston AAI'm finding the tenets of sobriety as being a long term burden weighing on the shoulders of recovering addicts instead of a release from the shackles of substance abuse after reading how sobriety is regarded as less a gift than a sort of cosmic loan...Having to pay it forward by spreading the AA message (344). It's interesting how AA is depicted as a drug, essentially a newer addiction used to fight the original substance abuse battle.
Once you're in, you're in AA, you cannot leave the ideologies, or the responsibilities behind, for fear of a setback. I loved this whole section, and truth be told, I love this book, but what Gately says next left me dumbfounded...Even after Substance cravings have left and you feel like you've got a grip on the thing at last and can now go it alone, you still don't try to go it alone, you heed the warnings because by now you have no faith in your own sense of what's really improbable and what isn't, since AA seems, improbably enough, to be working, and with no faith in your own senses you're confused...Never straying too far from a nightly meeting.
AA works and like a drug, strips the individual from having any human will like a shock trained organism doing what you're told...It doesn't matter what you believe, or don't believe, Just Do it...
It was not until the Blind Faith aspect of recovery that further cements the addictive nature of AA when Gately talks about trusting in those who have traveled the road before you because they will tell you exactly what to do, and where and when to do it (though never How and Why); and at this point you've started to have an almost classic sort of Blind Faith in the older guys, a Blind Faith in them born not of zealotry or even belief but just of a 'chilled conviction that you have no faith whatsoever left in yourself'...and now if the older guys ask you to Jump you ask them to hold their hand...and now they've got you, and 'you're free'(351)-but my question is, are you...Are you really free, it doesn't seem like it? This section brought me back to the conversation between Schtitt and Mario. In both cases, the bottom line is you must surrender yourself...Having faith. We find Gately doing just this on page 360 Ask For Help from something he still didn't believe in..., or the Crocodiles decades sober, live in a total spiritual galaxy, inside (365).
This section was rather heavy for me, as I feel these beliefs are strongly based on a totalitarian foundation of sorts...You either conform to the establishment and its credo, or you're out having failed at recovery. I thought of Geoffrey Day (a non-conformist) while I read this entire section.
On a lighter note...
I finally have some vindication, in that I'm not the only one, because Gately too has a hard time Identifying with anybody getting in enough trouble with weed to leave his job and condo... in reference to Erededy's " marijuana addiction"(361). I'm sorry, but this has plagued me since the beginning, I just couldn't wrap my head around it...Perhaps, it's just more jest!
It's great Wallace brings up the difference between "hearing" and "listening," I feel as if I'm constantly having to show people that there is a distinction between the two... It makes such a difference in life when one begins to notice this phenomenon (365).
Gately about to have a shared moment with JvD when she brings up her qualm with the saying "Here But For the Grace of God" but it turns out it wasn't so shared after all...Poor Gately, she really let the air out of his ballon! It was funny.
A little Heavier...
The Advanced Basics girl who told the story about her father sexually abusing her paralyzed sister...She just seemed so callous to me, by referring to this sister as an it and dragging it along on double dates and then dragging it back home, and the story comical at times even though it's said she wasn't trying to be funny as far as the Flaggers can see-I think it's questionable only because Gately makes it a point in discussing The 'Why' of the Disease is a labyrinth, inhabited by the twin minotaurs of 'Why Me?' and 'Why Not?,' a.k.a Self-Pity and Denial(374). I don't think Wallace placed her story, and those of the others, in this section for any other reason than if their stories warrant their addictions?
Ami wrote: "It's interesting how AA is depicted as a drug, essentially a newer addiction used to fight the original substance abuse battle."Yes, I got this sense too, and it was a bit of a sinking feeling when I realized this conclusion was what was being conveyed - trading one addition for another. And that, like you said, you are never really free.
I finally have some vindication, in that I'm not the only one, because Gately too has a hard time Identifying with anybody getting in enough trouble with weed to leave his job and condo... in reference to Erededy's " marijuana addiction"(361). I'm sorry, but this has plagued me since the beginning, I just couldn't wrap my head around it...Perhaps, it's just more jest!
This reading section was awhile ago, but I think I thought of you when I read this part. :)
Gately about to have a shared moment with JvD when she brings up her qualm with the saying "Here But For the Grace of God" but it turns out it wasn't so shared after all...Poor Gately, she really let the air out of his ballon! It was funny.
Ha ha!! Yes, I remember this part and laughed over it too.
Linda wrote: "Ami wrote: "It's interesting how AA is depicted as a drug, essentially a newer addiction used to fight the original substance abuse battle."Yes, I got this sense too, and it was a bit of a sinkin..."
But then do you recall, we turn the page and read along the lines ...You can leave AA, they can't kick you out...You don't have to follow the rules, you can do as you please...'If you trust what seems to please you'(356)? I felt that sinking feeling come to an abrupt halt here...Never have been a fan of reverse psychology! Do you remember reading this part?
Oh, I think it's so funny you thought of me while reading about Gately's thoughts on marijuana addiction...I was really baffled, I was :) How about reading like most young people genetically hard-wired for a secret drug problem in reference to Hal, only to find out he also has a sugar compulsion...This poor kid, I tell you (395)?
I know these sections are from a while back, I'm actually on page 720, but I'm catching up on my posting as per my notes while I was reading it. Thank you for revisiting.
Ha ha!! Yes, I remember this part and laughed over it too.
It's obvious Gately too battles with some of the proponents in the "program," but in the same instance he strives to be in that upper echelon, he wants to be a "crocodile."
Ami wrote: "But then do you recall, we turn the page and read along the lines ...You can leave AA, they can't kick you out...You don't have to follow the rules, you can do as you please...'If you trust what seems to please you'(356)? I felt that sinking feeling come to an abrupt halt here...Never have been a fan of reverse psychology! Do you remember reading this part?"Yes, now that you remind me, I do remember this part. To be in AA is a choice, for sure. You have to decide which "addiction" you are going to adhere to, I guess. Which addiction is better for your self and well-being.
And I think Gately would make a great "crocodile". :)
Linda wrote: "Rosemary wrote: "Did anyone else pick up where Avril was thinking in one of the footnotes "how upperclass heads can roll [over the Eschaton game] ... without those heads including that of Hal, who ..."I think that there is a possible connection. I mentioned something a little earlier in message 39 Week 5 FN 45. Keeping in mind how judicious Avril can be showing her affections, and the manner in which she shows it, there was definitely something about John Wayne that was special...No doubt.
Ami wrote: "I think that there is a possible connection. I mentioned something a little earlier in message 39 Week 5 FN 45. Keeping in mind how judicious Avril can be showing her affections, and the manner in which she shows it, there was definitely something about John Wayne that was special...No doubt."Ahh...so you did. I had not remembered you pointing this out two weeks later. :)
Lyle, Stice, Paranormal Activity...Perhaps?In this particular section it was questioned whether "The Darkness" Stice was telekenetic, due to waking up with his bed in a different position than where it was to begin with, or if somebody was playing a trick on him. I thought it was Lyle playing a trick on Stice, due to the nature of their discussion. It was almost as if Stice was going to confession and Lyle was absolving him for his mistakes...In not heeding Lyle's advice in the first place?
I found the interaction between Stice and Lyle to be cathartic due to the repetitive Do not underestimate objects . But this also brings to light one iota of insight into the society they live in, from the many present in this novel, where they find themselves immersed in "objects."
Lyle says, The world, after all, which is radically old, is made up of mostly objects (395)...As it pertains to the novel, these objects can be anything from it's most literal meaning to: barbells, drugs, tennis balls, a ton of bricks, people (unhealthy attachments), the entertainment, products, etc.
These characters are constantly sifting through these "objects" that are thrown at them via advertised subsidized time, or the Statue of Liberty wearing and carrying objects, or just found within their individual paths. The "do not underestimate objects" line was essentially a heads up to Stice to not get so attached, or bogged down with any one "object," or ideal. Fixating on any one part to a puzzle, or one object, can be detrimental, because sometimes these objects take on a life of their own consuming the consumer, so to speak. I thought the answer to Lyle's anecdotal story about the man who said he could stand on a chair and then proceed to lift off the ground to be it's not any one answer that enables this man to do what he does, it's a compilation of answers, regardless of the absurdity.
As I read this, I kept thinking about the grocery store and how many different types of X, Y, and Z we have available to us in the States, and how we too are constantly sifting through objects being thrown at us directly and subliminally on a daily basis. It's stressful, when you think about it, isn't it...When did having a choice become so hard?
HalIt's terrible, but looks like it's true, Hal didn't escape the cycle...Like most young people genetically hard-wired for a secret drug problem(395).
Linda, in Message 54 W6 talking about Hal, you said... he is more addicted to it than he may think he is- I completely agreed with you then, and now have more proof with the above statement-The high-resin pot has taken its effect on poor Hal.
It was in this section we also find out he now has severe compulsion issues with nicotine and sugar(395). I wondered if the nicotine (dip) transpired due the side effects from pot smoking, i.e. cottonmouth-Doesn't the dip promote salivation? This poor kid is really piling it on for himself :)
Ami wrote: "As I read this, I kept thinking about the grocery store and how many different types of X, Y, and Z we have available to us in the States, and how we too are constantly sifting through objects being thrown at us directly and subliminally on a daily basis. It's stressful, when you think about it, isn't it...When did having a choice become so hard?"Your grocery store analogy is great, Ami. But, I instantly thought Yes, it appears that we have so many choices of X, Y, Z. But in reality, those choices are only an illusion. In reality, many things are the same, they just appear different to give us, the consumers, a feeling that we have many choices given to us.*
This is similar to entertainment - for example, broadcast TV shows. It may appear that we have so many channels and shows to choose from, but really, there are very few formulas for any given successful broadcast show. They are really all the same - you have your comedic sitcoms, detective dramas, etc. Even news these days is essentially the same. It may appear there are a lot of choices, but really, we have the "left" and the "right" presenting the snippets of news they think we should be shown.
I don't know where I'm going with this. It was the first thing that popped into my head when you mentioned grocery stores and the many choices we all have. I feel there is some message someplace in all this - that if we just lead our lives with a "go with the flow" attitude and not really stop and take notice of what is happening around us, and figure out how to take lead of our own lives, we will be trapped in a life in which we have no choices.
I also don't know how this fits in with your analysis, Ami. I think maybe they are two totally separate issues that can be explored. But similar in both cases might be the suggestion to take charge of one's own life - look for all possible answers instead of getting "stuck" in one frame of mind (in your Lyle anecdote), or don't be duped into thinking that your life is full if you are just accepting what is given to you, take lead of your own life (don't just sit and consume hours on end of "entertainment" when it's all just the same crap).
* This only came to me because I've read a few books on our food supply, for example The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals, Stuffed And Starved: Markets, Power And The Hidden Battle For The World Food System, and others. The thing that came to my mind about "choices" is that although it appears we have more choices of various types of food, in reality we have fewer choices as many thing are increasingly made with fewer real ingredients (mostly corn), but are just reconfigured in many different forms.
Ami wrote: "I wondered if the nicotine (dip) transpired due the side effects from pot smoking, i.e. cottonmouth-Doesn't the dip promote salivation?"I don't have my book with me right now, but I thought Hal had actually said that he chewed because of the saliva production, how it helped with this cottonmouth?
Rosemary wrote: "Kaycie wrote: "So anyways, if someone asks you right now at 400 pages out of ~1000 what this book is about, what would you answer?."I'd say it's about addiction. Or maybe, addiction and tennis. I..."
Hmmm...There are so many different ways to answer this question, and I don't think there is a wrong answer per se. However, I don't think this book is about addiction, or tennis. This book is a satirical piece, sometimes forgotten while reading because the subject matter is so serious at given moments, but then brought back to light (the satire) due to the absurdity of the subject matter. Both addiction and tennis are a few of the vehicles used to help us navigate through the turmoil created by the plethora of facets such as loneliness, unhappiness and despair. On top of this, I'll give you a two-fold answer.
For me, in a nutshell...
It's about a terrorist and antiterrorist group trying to get their hands on a mind and body debilitating interface cartridge better known as "The Entertainment."
Digging deeper...
It's about faith, a belief in something bigger and greater than yourself, the easiest route is sometimes not the best route. It's about the light at the end of the tunnel of despair. This book is so multilayered, it would be a great disservice to DFW to say it was about any one thing.
Linda wrote: "Ami wrote: "I wondered if the nicotine (dip) transpired due the side effects from pot smoking, i.e. cottonmouth-Doesn't the dip promote salivation?"I don't have my book with me right now, but I t..."
Excellent, if he did...Makes sense to me. If you happen to find this passage, let me know :) at your convenience. Cottonmouth...Did you want me to expand on this?
Ami wrote: "Cottonmouth...Did you want me to expand on this?"Oh, no. I just had the question mark because I'm not totally sure if Hal had said this, but I thought he did.
Linda wrote: "Ami wrote: "As I read this, I kept thinking about the grocery store and how many different types of X, Y, and Z we have available to us in the States, and how we too are constantly sifting through ..."I know exactly where you're going with it and I get it.
look for all possible answers instead of getting "stuck" in one frame of mind (in your Lyle anecdote), or don't be duped into thinking that your life is full if you are just accepting what is given to you, take lead of your own life (don't just sit and consume hours on end of "entertainment" when it's all just the same crap).
You hit the nail on the head with this statement...It does all boil down to the same crap. LOL!! I don't think this book is one of those, where I will find myself saying "it changed my life," but I definitely have become more mindful of what these choices are and of all this outside noise be it the media, advertisements, etc...
The thing that came to my mind about "choices" is that although it appears we have more choices of various types of food, in reality we have fewer choices as many thing are increasingly made with fewer real ingredients (mostly corn), but are just reconfigured in many different forms.
Very well said and great analogy, i too have read this and felt similar after reading it. I mentioned the availability of choices, but you pointed out the quality choices are minimal...So true. I didn't factor this in...The number of quality choices.
Linda wrote: "Ami wrote: "Cottonmouth...Did you want me to expand on this?"Oh, no. I just had the question mark because I'm not totally sure if Hal had said this, but I thought he did."
:) LoL! Thank you!
Zulfiya wrote: "We are past the proverbial benchmark of coherence some time ago (in part 4), but did it really become easier for you? ."Yes it has definitely become easier. All of the characters have been meet and they are congregated in three main places. I am now also understanding the world in which the book resides. It's total madness but it's madness which I'm able to follow.
The AA meetings section I found intensely moving. I have also noticed that this section was very long which is unusual and although there was a great deal of humour (mostly toilet again; DFW 'really' loves his poop jokes doesn't he?) this felt like the emotional heart of the book to me. This is where addiction will ultimately lead you. To the point of two choices. Surrender your will or die. Or even don't surrender your will because your will died years ago when you weren't paying attention, rather surrender your allowing the disease to make any of your decisions, follow the AA way in all things. Or die. That really struck home.
The stories were very disturbing as per all of the stories in this book. The Raquel Welch was doubly disturbing as the tellers contempt of her retarded sister was pretty horrifying. I assume this was meant to be some sort of perverted mirroring of the Orin/Mario/The Moms relationship.
I've noticed something about the Marathe/Steeply conversations which I think is unique to the book so far. They are the only sequences which are occuring entirely chronologically. The date 30thApril/1st May has been chopped up but it looks like everytime we go back to it we are picking it up at exactly the same place we left it and the time clock is slowly moving.
We seem to be returning more frequently to this conversation between and the gaps between visits is decreasing. I think this is because we are approaching the real crux of the political situation that have been hinted at previously and the flow of information is speeding up. Mario's film fills in some more gaps even if it is in typical IJ crazy style. Puppets :-) Of course how much of it is 'true' is open to debate but the central parts are very interesting. Wow. And I thought the GOP was bad!
Nicola wrote: " The Raquel Welch was doubly disturbing as the tellers contempt of her retarded sister was pretty horrifying. I assume this was meant to be some sort of perverted mirroring of the Orin/Mario/The Moms relationship."I totally didn't pick this up at the time, but they sure do look like similar relationships. Of course we never really see Orin and Mario together growing up, so maybe this is a way of showing us how Orin might have treated Mario.
Kaycie wrote:Linda - I agree about the atmosphere of the AA meeting. It was a very long section, and it was very tough to plow through. I am, sort of, glad that I finished it because I learned something big about addiction from this section. ."This had a great deal of impact because it is real. The stories are made up of course but the meetings themselves aren't. They exist and the human wrecks which attend these meetings could no doubt tell stories as wretched at those we are reading about here.
Linda wrote: "Nicola wrote: " The Raquel Welch was doubly disturbing as the tellers contempt of her retarded sister was pretty horrifying. I assume this was meant to be some sort of perverted mirroring of the Or..."so maybe this is a way of showing us how Orin might have treated Mario.
How do you think the relationship might have been?
Kaycie wrote:From the lack of posts this week, it seems I am not the only one struggling now. Where are our previous IJ readers? Can someone jump in and inject a bit of life into our reading at this point or provide a bit of motivation? I think I am basically looking for someone to hold my hand or pat my back and tell me that I can make it through and things will get better."I think drop off is fairly common, I wish it wasn't but that seems to be the way of things.
I can't really relate to your situation because I'm not finding it difficult going at all; in fact now I'm simply flying through the book. I've been behind so I'm catching up and now I have some free time I'm reading it in large chunks.
Hopefully the core group who are still reading this will stick it out. I think people are mostly enjoying this? I know I certainly am :-)
Kaycie wrote: I am also painfully aware that there is the very real possibility that loose ends aren't all getting wrapped up at the end of this book, which is contributing to my lack of motivation in picking this up each week for the readings"I think they mostly will. This book is obviously so intricately plotted that I think D FW won't leave us hanging on anything major. Of course I could be completely wrong... :-)
Linda wrote: "So, from what I've read about IJ, I am going to assume that not every thread gets tied up by the end. I guess for me I'm enjoying the reading as it occurs and I'm not necessarily looking towards a final "this is where everyone ended up" with this book, although at least a general sense of closure by the end would be nice."Oh I see what you mean. I wasn't thinking that the story would be tied up to that extent.
Ami wrote: "How do you think the relationship might have been?"I think Orin might have treated Mario basically like he was subhuman. I would have to flip through the past several hundred pages to find examples, but we've gotten a sense that Orin treated Mario horribly. I thought for a time he might have just treated him like any other older brother, beating up on the younger siblings can be normal to some extent. But if this Raquel Welch story is a mirror of Orin and Mario as Nicola suggests, then Orin's treatment of Mario was most likely much much worse.
And we see that Hal and Mario are so close as brothers, I wonder if Hal perhaps was able to act as a buffer between Mario and Orin and protect Mario when he could? Hal was Mario's safe zone, and that is one reason why Mario loves Hal so much.
This is all speculation, of course. :)
Rosemary wrote: Did anyone else pick up where Avril was thinking in one of the footnotes "how upperclass heads can roll [over the Eschaton game] ... without those heads including that of Hal, who - unlike, thank God, John - was identified at the scene" ... is that John Wayne? And if so why 'thank God' - just because he's ETA's star player? Because she and he are both Canadians? Or because there's something more personal going on? It was pointed out previously that John is the only one of Hals friends that Avril likes so it likely is John. I don't know if it's because Johns Canadian like her (though it probably doesn't hurt) but more because he is more restrained than the other boys. Personally I think he is too restrained. He's always being described as 'cold' and along with uninteresting and boring I am now adding 'a bit creepy' to my assessment of the boy.
John wrote: "Oh gosh, I haven't even mentioned the Eschaton chapter! That was in this section, wasn't it? Will have to come back later for that."No that was in last weeks section.
John wrote: I'm actually getting a little annoyed at Hal for all the times he notes that a difficult vocabulary word is or isn't actually what the character said. I realize Hal is gifted intellectually, but these notes are starting to sound a little condescending after the 3rd of 4th time he brings it up..."Don't forget what Hal is though - he's a walking human encyclopedia. For someone like that, obviously slightly mentally off centre, it might be a compulsion unable to be resisted to correct a word. And if it's Orin who needs to be put in his corner far more than it seems to happen...
Kaycie wrote: So anyways, if someone asks you right now at 400 pages out of ~1000 what this book is about, what would you answer? That is a really hard question!.."
Well I would say 'short answer; addiction. Long answer; how long have you got?'
John wrote: The political stuff was definitely a slog, although the headlines were great -- especially hilarious was the recurring mention of EPA officials stumbling over toxic dumps while playing softball. Then there was the one headline "THE ART OF FEDERAL STUMBLING: A WHOLE LOT OF SOFTBALL GOING ON" -- I actually laughed really hard at that! So funny..."
Why is that funny?
John wrote: Don Gately has pulled into the lead as my favorite character in the book..."I don't tend to have favourites in books but I definitely am having a growing sense of love for the G man.
Linda wrote: "Ami wrote: "How do you think the relationship might have been?"I think Orin might have treated Mario basically like he was subhuman. I would have to flip through the past several hundred pages t..."
Thank you... I had trouble drawing a parallel between the two stories. I didn't see any commonality because the father is "diddling" the deformed sister in a Raquel Welch mask, while the sister who now has an addiction is listening to it happen being in the same room. In the case of Orin, Mario and the Moms...I have an idea of who could be diddling one another, but Mario is unharmed in this sense. In W6 we learn of Orin's treatment of Mario and his dislike of him in a previous week's reading, but I didn't see a direct parallel. Just wanted to make sure I didn't miss anything :)
I wonder if Hal perhaps was able to act as a buffer between Mario and Orin and protect Mario when he could? Hal was Mario's safe zone, and that is one reason why Mario loves Hal so much.
Yes, I totally see him as a buffer between the two.
Purely speculating too.
Nicola wrote: "I can't really relate to your situation because I'm not finding it difficult going at all; in fact now I'm simply flying through the book. I've been behind so I'm catching up and now I have some free time I'm reading it in large chunks.
Hopefully the core group who are still reading this will stick it out. I think people are mostly enjoying this? I know I certainly am :-)
I think my problem is more related to DFWs writing style, and these long, dense chunks are very tough for me to plow through. It takes a lot of concentration for me to read and absorb what he is writing, and the sections that are also emotionally taxing therefore become harder. I give you so much credit for plowing through this book because the group's 60ish pages a week are about at my limit! That being said, there are at least 3 of us that are keeping with the schedule and will finish strong, and others trickle in over time. The conversations are definitely keeping up!
I also want to clarify that I'm still enjoying the book. It's just a hard read for me (and at times a slog) and this particular week just happened to be my lowest point...and happened to coincide with low participation!
Nicola wrote: "Kaycie wrote: So anyways, if someone asks you right now at 400 pages out of ~1000 what this book is about, what would you answer? That is a really hard question!.."
Well I would say 'short answer..."
Love this answer, Nicola! :-)
Ami wrote: "I didn't see any commonality because the father is "diddling" the deformed sister in a Raquel Welch mask"You know, I actually forgot the most horrid part of this story - the father's part. I was remembering the way the sister treated her deformed sister, like dragging her around like she was not a person or worth anything. That is why I agreed with Nicola when she brought up the Orin/Mario parallel.
Ami wrote: I finally have some vindication, in that I'm not the only one, because Gately too has a hard time Identifying with anybody getting in enough trouble with weed to leave his job and condo... in reference to Erededy's " marijuana addiction"(361). I'm sorry, but this has plagued me since the beginning, I just couldn't wrap my head around it...Perhaps, it's just more jest! "I don't think it's in jest, I think that, although he uses humour to lighten the horror sometime, drugs is a subject DFW takes very seriously. Marijuana can obviously be as devastating as the 'harder' drugs to some people.
Reading the Chunksters
Books mentioned in this topic
The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals (other topics)Stuffed and Starved: Markets, Power and the Hidden Battle for the World Food System (other topics)
I am in the middle of part 5, and I am mostly intrigued by the literary tricks, casual references, and subtle allusions. The plot is growing exponentially, but also narrowing :-)
We are past the proverbial benchmark of coherence some time ago (in part 4), but did it really become easier for you?