Catholic Thought discussion
Treasure in Clay
>
Chapters 15 thru 16
date
newest »
newest »
Mod
I know exactly how he feels. I hurt that way too. Even when I was an atheist such attacks hurt me. I may not have believed but I only lacked belief because of some sort of scientific assessment, not because of any hatred for the Church. I've always considered the Roman Catholic Church to be a loving entity toward me and always felt it had my best interest in mind. That's why this priest scandal hurts so much. It undermined an image of the ideal I held.
Nonetheless, any attack on the Church hurts me, even if it's by faithful Catholics. I have complaints, especially with the current issues, but I try not to air dirty laundry or cast my complaints in disparaging way.
Mod
Each year I would discuss with him the subjects that I would talk about on radio for the coming year.
Isn’t that surprising, that he would discuss with the Pope the subjects of radio broadcasts that were on American radio? I found it surprising. Were his radio broadcasts international? I don’t think so. Why would a Pope be interested of what was being broadcast on American radio? I would have thought it would be too parochial.
But then Bishop Sheen gives himself a back door pat on the back:
Humility forbids me to reveal all that he said about my being a “prophet of the times” and that “you will have a high place in Heaven.” Nothing that he said was infallible, of course, but his words gave me much consolation.
Ha! Humility forbids my foot. He said it!
Manny said, "Nonetheless, any attack on the Church hurts me,...I have complaints, especially with the current issues, but I try not to air dirty laundry or cast my complaints in disparaging ways."To speak at all about the disturbing issues is to walk a painful tightrope. I have tried both to defend the Church when people want to paint all Catholics with the black brush of pedophilia, and to bring up concerns when disturbing reports, such as the pictures and comments on compromising with idolatry in the synod, emerge. On the one hand, bishops and cardinals are face the accusations of remaining silent interpreted as covering up the scandals, and on the other, critics of the pope and his policies are accused of heresy themselves, or of being sacrilegious towards the hierarchy. I don't think keeping quiet is the best option. It gives the devil a pass. What do we do?
Mod
I agree he does, but he will deny that in an upcoming chapter.
Mod
...What do we do?"
What I do is tell the truth. I tell them that the percentage of pedophile priests matches the general population at large, which is a hand full of percent. I tell them that the same problems and issues occur across other religious leaders of other faiths and more importantly across the public school systems across the country. Public school teachers have the same rate of child abuse, it's just that they have not been stigmatized like Catholic priests. If they haven't noticed, child abuse and sex abuse is rampant across the entire world. And that the Catholic Church has made incredible reforms in the past number of years where we are now well below the average across the general population.
I'm also greatly bothered by attacks on the church, and by the way attackers from both right and left disparage speakers who hold differing views. I think some people forget that the church doesn't exist to suit us. Manny, I know what you mean about respecting the church even during a period when you held atheistic views. During my years as a lapsed Catholic, I always jumped to defend the church when others criticized it.
I think Sheen struggled with pride. I've been trying to read between the lines to determine what's been left unsaid. Like why he went from being a global church figure who hung out with popes, to being the bishop of Rochester, N.Y. Did he think too much of himself? I do admire how he doesn't throw dirt at anyone. But he does manage to get across how great he is, as in the example Manny noted. The chapter on conversions reads as though he had one big success after another, and that they were easy. He finally admits that he left out the many failures. It's as though he's trying to compensate for his ego and not quite succeeding. It's agreed Sheen was a brilliant man. Maybe pride was his cross.
I have a few more takeaways from these two chapters: -- Sheen often mentions the power of intercessory prayer. He didn't just say a prayer or two, he'd say rosaries, Masses, and spend hours in front of the Blessed Sacrament on behalf of others in need, usually a specific person at a time. He has inspired me to try intercessory prayer more often.
-- The importance of the Cross. I think it was the section about Clare Booth Luce, where Sheen said that through the sorrow of losing her daughter she was able to start instruction in the faith. Growing closer to God through bearing a cross/sorrow is a hard truth, I think. One I still sometimes have trouble accepting. Yet it was the cross/sorrow of infertility and miscarriages that brought be back to the faith and closer to God.
-- Speaking of sorrow, there were a few times it seemed Sheen was writing in 2019 instead of in the 1970s, when he speaks of fighting and factions. I even made note to that effect when I read this, on page 255:
"We have been split up into parties, groups, factions and cliques ever since we split the atom. Each one wishes to strike his own note; not one wants to sing a song of patriotism and unity. Our hands are full, but our hearts are empty; we suffer from hunger of the spirit while much of the world is suffering from hunger of the body
I have started seeing a hashtag #onecatholicchurch in social media, and I plan to start using it.
Mod
Gerri, did you read the Introduction by Raymond Arroyo? He explains how he got to be Bishop of Rochester. Bishop Sheen ticked off a Cardinal who got him assigned to Rochester. The Introduction is worth reading.
Mod
I did read the introduction by Raymond Arroyo and was glad he wrote it, otherwise I'd really be confused about Sheen. One thing for sure, Sheen wouldn't be silent today any more than he was silent in the past. But he always took his lead from the church and the Holy Father. He recognized the supremacy of the papal office and the authority of the Pope. He says so, expressly, in his autobiography, and more than once. Not to say he always agreed with decisions made, but he understood and respected the hierarchy. It's true things have gotten worse in society. Madeleine, I agree we shouldn't stay silent in the face of wrongs. The abuse crisis wouldn't finally be on the road to resolution if people in the pews had stayed silent. But that's different than laity on the right and left who feel they are experts on doctrine and on what direction the church should move. It's like some of them want to break apart the church! I have sometimes even wondered if some Protestants became Catholic so they could sow discord from the inside. It hurts me to see people in the church tearing it apart. We are the one, holy, and apostolic church.
Mod
Mod
I agree with Manny that much of the division comes from, or maybe between, life-long Catholics. Having grown up with the Latin Mass, and all the formality and solemnity and ritual that characterized our worship then, I was a young married when the reforms of Vatican II were implemented, and while most didn't object to having Mass in their own language, many Catholics went overboard in relaxing the "rules and rigidities" of the Church and the "cafeteria Catholics" emerged. Many objected to the music, and still do, many miss the Gregorian chant, but when the Baltimore Catechism was replaced by the new fat one, which went from learning the questions and answers by rote, to a thorough explanation, complete with footnotes giving the sources, names, and dates of many of the councils and Catholic apologists involved in establishing Catholic doctrine, it seemed that no dogmas had really changed and most of the changes were superficial aspects of worship, yet many Catholics became less devoted to Mass and the sacraments, interpreted the relaxation of church atmosphere as a relaxation in observance of the rules, but Pope Francis muddied the waters when he entertained the bishops who arbitrarily decided to give communion to divorced Catholics, and he failed to come out strongly against the homosexual network which apparently still exists, although the more egregious offenders have finally been dealt with. The same factions that want to bring back the old forms object to his decorating the papal gardens in Rome along with the church in Amazon with pagan images and statuary, believe that he is suggesting moral equivalency of Catholicism with Islam, the pagan culture in the Amazon, and elements of Protestantism as well,including ordination of women and married clergy. Pope Francis has suggested that the Church is already forming schismatic factions, but has yet to bring those factions together to reaffirm the Magisterium. It is a fact that the far left globalists, Marxists, and Communists have had a plan in place for at least a century to infiltrate and destroy the Church from within. Look up Bella Dodd, and the documentary A Wolf in Sheep's Clothing, which aired on EWTN many times in recent years. There is a crisis of dogma and ritual in the church, as well as droves of people, mostly younger, leaving the Church altogether believing the betrayal of the pedophile clergy justifies their own apostasy. Those who get too vocal on either side walk a tightrope. The most passionate critics seem to be lay Catholic journalists and apologists, with a few bishops and cardinals apparently still trying to be diplomatic. Bishop Barron, for example, believes we need to bring back the beauty of traditional Catholicism through art, music, architecture, etc. I wonder if the faith would benefit from bringing back some elements of the Old Mass and sacraments--incense, chant, even Latin, not for everyone but simply allowing it. It's already happening. In one of our Dallas suburbs there is a parish, staffed by Petrine fathers, which is exclusively Old Church,Latin Mass and all, and most of the parishioners are, I'm told, young families with babies and small children in tow.
I am so glad to hear everyone's opinions. No, Manny, I wasn't thinking of anyone in particular. It was just a random thought that perhaps people deliberately infiltrated the church. I apologize for saying "Protestant" when really I meant anyone coming into the church from any direction. Kerstin, I've heard from people who converted about challenges faced. A young friend of mine from when I worked at Stetson University recently joined the church, and he shared with me some of his feelings about his journey through RCIA. He was already a person of faith; in fact his father is a pastor of a Baptist church, but his grandmother and some other elders in the family are Catholic. (More about youth below.) I've also heard that sometimes "cradle Catholics" like me are insensitive to the needs and questions of people who are entering the faith. If that's true I apologize for all of us and I for one will try to do better. I don't think the church is facing a crisis in dogma, Madeleine, but in some areas of doctrine. Definitely there are issues in ritual, and I'm also happy to see see some elements of the old Mass returning. I haven't been to a Latin Mass in so long I'm half tempted to attend the one offered in a parish about a 30-minute drive from me.
Regarding moral doctrines, the church has changed doctrine in the past and will do so in the future. There was a time when the church didn't condemn slavery. In fact, the church and some religious orders owned slaves. In modern times, St. John Paul II termed slavery an intrinsic evil. I think a doctrinal fight is what we're witnessing right now with issue over granting Communion to divorced Catholics. I have strong personal feelings on this matter. I had an early, abusive marriage for which I wasn't able to get an annulment until after I'd be civilly remarried for many years. (We've been civilly married for 33 years, and had our marriage convalidated in the church many years ago.) During those in-between years, I wasn't able to take Communion. It was horrible! And contributed to my staying away during my lapsed years. The Eucharist shouldn't be weaponized. Many people are divorced even when they don't want to be. The annulment process is excruciating and lengthy and can't be done without the cooperation of the divorced couple and others who agree to serve as witnesses. Jesus in His times condemned divorce because it left the wife destitute and unworthy in 1st century culture. Are we perhaps letting 1st century cultural relativism color how the issue is perceived today? I speak as a strong defender of marriage. The breakdown of the family is one of the biggest problems in today's society. But divorce does happen, and divorced people are greatly in need of the healing presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
I forgot to add my second comment about youth. I'm basing it on my young friend who was received into the church at Easter Vigil this year. He - and he says other youth - disagree with the church's stance on same-sex relationships. I don't even know how to wade into this discussion. Two members of my extended family fall into the same-sex category. Both are older than me and both had/have long-term relationships - one still existing, and the other ended in death of the companion to AIDS. I'm not close with these second and third cousins but I love them as members of my family. If I look at people individually, I love them as people even when I don't fully understand them. People are as God made them.Yet I also feel our modern culture of anything-goes gender and sexuality is sending us on a road to ruin. We not only need a return to strong families, but also a return to strong extended families.
Mod
I don't think it's controversial to say that the solution they are striving for with divorced couples is expediting the annulment process. I think that is a good solution rather than sanctioning divorce. Sacramental marriage is more than just a first century issue for abandoning women. I don't think you understand the fullness of it. You can get that here on this Catholic Answers explanation:
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/pri...
Gerri, I have known people who had to wait years for an annulment while trying to remain good Catholics, and could barely imagine how painful that is. I also helped a dear friend with testimony at her tribunal about what I knew of the abuse she endured, documented by letters we'd written back and forth when people still did that. She got her annulment. And known others who seem to have had none of that trouble, even after a long marriage with children. And my husband and I had a good friend who came out as gay in our last year of college together, and stayed friends until he was drafted, and we wrote for awhile but lost touch and when we finally found him, it was in his obituary. I also have gay family members, and some "living in sin"; no problem loving any sinners (because aren't we all), but it's another issue to insist on validating the sin. I believe many Catholics want to eliminate the elements of guilt and sacrifice from life. (you definitely aren't one of them!) But Jesus and St. Paul had a lot to say on those issues, worth remembering. In particularly I try to remember 1Peter 4: 13: "Rejoice to the extent that you share in the sufferings of Christ, so that when His glory is revealed you may also rejoice exultantly." Suffering and sacrifice do have value in God's kingdom, despite what the world would have us believe. God's will prevails in the end. That message needs to be made clearer, I think. Especially on those issues. I hear many of the people in our parish complain that the Church is too quiet about abortion. All about submitting to God's will which is the road to real peace, but full of detours!
Manny, you are right. I got way off topic. This isn't the place for conflict of views. I stand corrected. What happens is that I'm so conflict-averse in personality that I become over-sensitive to the strife happening in the church and to the pain some people deal with in their personal lives. I know, no excuse! As Madeleine says, suffering and sacrifice have value in God's kingdom. Too many people really do forget that or don't want to listen.
Mod
Gerri, I agree with Manny. Your comments are from the heart, and I don't think you were at all contentious. It's just so hard to defend the faith these days without being misunderstood by people on either side! I try to keep my love for the faith and our Church at the forefront, and remind those who attack all Catholics for not leaving the Church, because people betrayed that Church who didn't love it, that the Church remains the most beautiful and powerful civilizing forces in the history of the world, even if you don't get the history of salvation that it carries.
Mod
But the subject of making converts and saving souls is a very difficult one, for it is so easy to believe that we are the agents who cause the results, when actually all we are at best are instruments of God.
I really thought his explanation of the convert’s experience was very profound:
Conversion is an experience in no way related to the upsurge of the subconscious into consciousness; it is a gift of God, an invasion of a new Power, the inner penetration of our spirit by the Spirit and the turning over of a whole personality to Christ.
Some of the conversions are quite touching. The way Bella Dodd, the Communist Party lawyer, broke down while in the church is one. The atheist woman who was told she had two weeks to live and the leper in New York City are two others. Some stories are rather astonishing. The story of Fritz Kreisler and his wife is one. He just happened to ring their bell at an apartment building and just asked if they would like to take up instructions for the Church, and they said yes! I particularly liked the story of the young prostitute who entered the church to “kill time,” but refused to go to confession and left. So Bishop Sheen stayed up all night praying for her, and she returned at 12:30 AM and went to confession. Great story, but some of these were a little too farfetched for credulity. How about the Jewish jeweler who converted. Let me post the entire account:
A Jewish jeweler in New York whom I had known for twenty-five years or more was always very kind to me. When I would ask him the price of anything, he would always say: “It cost me…” Then he would check through his filing cabinet and be sure of the cost price; that would be the price for me. One year he went to Europe and during the trip at sea, as he was seated at the captains table, I sent him a cablegram which read: “This cost me $7.87.” He said he lost his soup in the reading of that cablegram.
One day he phoned me and said: “Would you like a large number of silver crucifixes?” I went down to see him, and in a little brown bag he had many dozens of silver crucifixes about four inches high. I said: “Where did you get these?” He said: “From Sisters. They brought them in to me and said they were not going to use them any more—wearing the crucifix separated them from the world. They wanted to know how much I would give them for the silver.” The jeweler said: “I weighed them out thirty pieces of silver. What is wrong with your Church?” I answered: “Just that! The contempt of Christ and His Cross which makes it worldly.” Those words became the channel of the Spirit working in his soul. I explained to him the cost of Redemption, the blood of Christ; he embraced the Faith and died in it.
Thirty pieces of silver? Do you think Bishop Sheen is gilding the story? Does a Jewish man just convert because he started talking to a famous Catholic personality?
And what about the bank robber at the end of his life?
The pastor told me that he was given a gift of $10,000 to build a shrine altar to Our Lady. I expressed amazement that there was $10,000 in the entire parish. He said: “Well, it was given to me by such and such a woman.” My eye ran down that street, and it seemed that none of the houses could be sold for $10,000. I inquired where she could possibly have gotten the money. He said: “Her brother was a bank robber, and I think that she probably was given this money, and is now returning it to the Church in reparation for his soul.” I asked if he had ever tried to retrieve the robber, but he said he had not.
That afternoon, I called on the woman and her brother. He sat in an armchair, a very handsome, benign old man with a full head of white hair. I said: “How long has it been since you have been to Confession?” He said: “Seventy years.” I said: “Would you not like to make your peace with God?” “No. That would be cowardice. Do you know my record? I have robbed banks and post offices to the tune of a quarter of a million dollars. I have spent over thirty years of my life in jail, and have killed two men. Why should I now, at the end of my life, be a coward and ask God to forgive me?” “Well,” I said, “let us see how brave you are tomorrow morning. I will come here to your door at eight o'clock. I will not be alone; I will bring the Good Lord with me in the Blessed Sacrament. I am sure that you will not turn us both away.” When I returned in the morning, he opened the door. I heard his confession and gave him Communion—which proved to be Viaticum because he died the next day. He was not the first thief the Lord saved on his last day.
Well, I can believe that one. I’m sure many people want to make amends at the end of their lives.
I do think that Bishop Sheen is insightful in his takeaway point from all these conversions.
Years ago souls were brought to a belief in God by the order in the universe. Today souls are brought to God by disorder within themselves. It is less the beauty of creation and more the coiling serpents within the human breast which bring them to seek repose in Christ. Oftentimes what appears to be a doctrinal objection against the Faith turns out to be a moral objection. Most people basically do not have trouble with the Creed, but with the commandments; not so much with what the Church teaches, as with how the Church asks us to behave.
Yes, I would agree with that. Today I think people convert not from seeing an error in their lack of belief but because the dysfunction of their lives leads them to seek solace. “Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls” (Matt 11:29). Christ is still what brings us to peace.
I highlighted the same passage about Sheen's thoughts on how we are only the agents of God. He felt deep gratitude for being an instrument of the Lord. He gives thanks "... that the Lord used me to bring others to Himself. I have always had a deep passion for helping others find faith." His stories confirm that.I also appreciated how, although his prominence attracted some highly placed people, he treated every situation with equal seriousness and considered every person's soul equally important. Like when he was living in France, and the woman who managed the boarding house he lived him told him she planned to end her life. He pleaded with her to postpone the decision for nine days. Then he began a novena for her before the statue of the Sacred Heart in the local church. The night before the novena ended, "she received the gift of Faith." She wasn't so much a convert as a lost Catholic, but he - and God - surely saved her life and brought her back to the church.
He turned to intercessory prayer from the beginning. He says his first convert as a young priest was a woman "who spit in my face and told me to leave" when he knocked on her door: "This was in the month of September. Every single morning in Holy Mass I begged God to give her the grace of conversion." He baptized her in May.
As for gilding the story about the jeweler, I don't know. I highlighted that story and thought, "ah, that's so perfect!" when he related the quote about the thirty pieces of silver. Hmmm, maybe too perfect. Sheen certainly got my attention, which was among his goals as an author.
Yet the more I thought about it, I wondered: Would Sheen really make up that quote? Maybe yes, although it goes against the rules of good writing. He might have embellished it without fully making it up. Then another thought came to mind. Perhaps the jeweler was already interested in Catholicism and had been doing some studying on his own, particularly about the Lord's Passion. In that case, he would know the exact amount of silver. His conversion also becomes more believable.
I do think Sheen compressed time elements in his stories about converts. They're introduced in one paragraph. In the next, they're in the church. But he had a lot of good stories to tell. He probably could have written an entire book just on conversions.
Mod
Chapter 15, “Papal Audiences”:
Bishop Sheen discusses the various meetings and conversations he held with the Popes during his lifetime. He provides his impressions of each of the Popes.
Chapter 16, “Making Converts”:
Bishop Sheen tells of the various conversions to Catholicism he has been involved in. He makes clear that it is the Holy Spirit who does the conversion; he is but an instrument.