Let’s discuss - gom jabbar, Spacing Guild, Bene Gesserit, oh my!

[Amy]

How do you all feel about some discussion questions and thoughts?

Good? Great.

A quick tangent first. I promise it will be relevant. I started The Wheel of Time series in high school; it was, as far as I can remember, the first high fantasy series I read. As I went from paragraph to paragraph, I'd read an unfamiliar term and I'd flip to the glossary. I'd read the definition, sometimes also filled with unfamiliar terms, and try to retain the meaning. Then I'd flip back to my spot, rinse and repeat until jumbled phrases floated around my head and I'd be mumbling about Aes Sedai and Trollocs.

I did not do this with Dune. I respect how Herbert throws the reader into his creation. Bene Gesserit. Arrakis. The Voice. Kwisatz Haderach. I could go on. He reveals the vastness and complexity of the world not with big "tada" moments but within normal conversation. Robert Jordan may have done that with Wheel of Time too, but hey, I was much younger then. Plowing ahead without pausing helps me open my mind and forget the constraints of the world where I live. Rather than looking up each new-to-me word, I use the context to frame it or I file it away for when it comes up again in the text.

Which method of learning the vocabulary of a new world works best for you?

And how are you doing with the book so far? Easy breezy, muddling through, in between?

And also, some other questions to consider (please feel free to share your own questions and comments!):
- We haven't traveled to Arrakis, but what impressions do you have of the planet from the way it's described?
- The second chapter reveals much about the Atreides' enemies. Do you like when the hand is revealed to the audience that early?
- What are your initial reactions to the Bene Gesserit?

[Ashley]

I find that Dune reminds me of The Lord of the Rings but somewhat less complicated. I am usually able to figure out what is going on through context clues. It’s hard to remember who people are but so far characters have been introduced and then who they are is said.

Listening to the book has saved it for me. I find it easier with complicated texts. I am also following it on the Kindle edition. At first I would say I was muddling through but not anymore.

Arrakis sounds like a scary place. Actually now that I think about it, it reminds me of the desert in Mad Max: Fury Road.

I don’t have a preference about whether or not the enemy is revealed. That has been is sort of like a movie, we get to hear from both sides.

The Bene Gesserit.... it sounds like a lot hehe, I think that’s all that has come to me so far.

[C.S. Daley]

I find my ability to figure out new words in a created world fascinating. I can never remember a time having a problem with this. I read Dune for the first time as a freshman in high school (this was many years ago). I remember plowing through it and thinking, "oh, that's what science fiction is."

I loved everything about this beginning. I have read the book many times but I am still filled with a sense of awe at the Bene Gesserit. I am still immensely impressed without how easily Herbert clued us into the vast web of intrigue and plotting they were involved in.

[C.S. Daley]

Just a quick follow up. I am also equally fascinated that I am terrible at learning foreign languages. I may be broken.

[Mediocre]

I had some time on my hands this week and finished the book. Oh well.

Having spent a good amount of time in open desert in the Middle East, I could definitely get into the feel of Arrakis. I don't want to get too far into other aspects of it, but the Fremen people and their traditions are so very interesting to me.

[Mediocre]

Regarding the Spacing Guild - wow, they have far too much power. More on that later.

Bene Gesserit - they're really playing the long game here. I think it's possible that they set a self-fulfilling prophecy in motion. Again, more later.

[Andrew]

Thanks for the prompts Amy!

I definitely am impressed when an author can just let you figure out the words based on context. I even like when they make it a bit difficult so you might not be able to figure it out until a while after you are introduced to it. William Gibson is probably my favorite example of this. He is so good at just getting you to trust him that you don't need to know every definition up front. This is my first time reading Dune (or anything by Herbert) but it seems he has the gift as well. Everytime I'm like "wait what did that word mean" it seems he gives me enough info to figure it out. But yeah in general I would much rather be uncertain about a term and go with an assumption than have the author take me out of the narrative by explaining every little thing!

Ive already read to the month's stopping point so I have seen Arrakis described and won't ruin it for others.

I did like that we got to see the enemy's plans right away. Felt like that really set up the space opera feeling. You just feel the conflict building so much from so many different angles. But i did feel like those characters felt a little cartoony.

I guess I don't have much of a reaction to the BG, although I will say that anytime I'm reading books from this time period or earlier I just have to hold my nose a bit about the way the author treats women. Like, I get that this is fiction but do we have to call them concubines? It's jarring to read modern sci fi that is so pro feminism and then read the classics and see how far removed it is.

My only question for the group is just what other books do you like that use the device Herbert uses where each chapter is introduced using a quote from a historical account of the events youre reading about? NK Jemisin's Broken Earth Trilogy did it really well I thought.

[Ben]

My first read, I did not flip to the glossary. This time around, I actually read thru all the glossaries before beginning the re-read. I am glad I did.

Dune kicked off my preference for palace intrigue sci-fi and fantasy, and re-educating myself on all the background has really let me key-in on the nuances of all the characters' moves.

[Daniel]

I love how Herbert just drops you into his universe. My first read I remember flipping back to the first pages with publisher information like "wait, did I miss something?" You're thrust into the story and through context and character dialogue it becomes a little more clear what's going on. He does a good job of teaching though context things Paul already knows while using Paul's ignorance to teach him and the reader about things like Arrakis and the Gom Jabbar. I do think if Dune had been my first dense science fiction I would have struggled a little more however.

Arrakis feels dangerous. Through the descriptions you learn how rough it is and then the characters pretty much say "we expect everything to go wrong when we get there but we have to go because space politics." It leaves so much anticipation. I think revealing the Harkonnen plots early work really well. It makes Dune feel more like you're reading live history if that makes sense. You feel the dread building as you read about plans within plans, betrayal impending, lack of water, and basically the car crash you can see coming but can't look away from.

I always lean into some characters skepticism of the Bene Gesserit for some reason. Genetic manipulation and trying to literally seed the fate of humanity always felt gross to me. He and his mother learn important lessons and controls of the self though the BG, sure, but the Reverend Mother feels almost skeezy to me.

[Peter]

As for the glossary, I'm of two minds about it. The bookish nerd in me always loves when SFF books have stuff like glossaries and maps, but on the other hand, I like to try to get through the stories without having to reference them as much as possible. I find the best books are able to convey the meaning of all the weird terms in the text, and even if I don't get it the first time, I like being able to figure it out, like I'm being thrown into a new world.

I like how the book lays most of the cards down on the table early on with what the enemies' plots are, who the traitor is, etc. This book does a great job of jumping back and forth between characters' points of view, and it adds a lot of tension when I as the reader knows what is coming but the heroes do not.

[Amy]

Ashley wrote: "I find that Dune reminds me of The Lord of the Rings but somewhat less complicated. I am usually able to figure out what is going on through context clues. It’s hard to remember who people are but ..."

Oh my gosh, Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion always get me. I get very confused when characters go by more than one name (and many of them do) and I just get lost in the weeds. I made a key for Silmarillion. I enjoy Middle-earth, but the first time wading through all of that was daunting.

I'm glad listening to the audio version is helping.

And I can totally picture some of the scary things that reside on Arrakis in Fury Road!

[Amy]

C.S. Daley wrote: "Just a quick follow up. I am also equally fascinated that I am terrible at learning foreign languages. I may be broken."

Haha, I am also terrible at learning foreign languages. Though the Duolingo app is helping me tremendously.

The layers of information Herbert builds into the Bene Gesserit is wild. Piece by piece between learning about the Voice and the kind of control they can exert over others, the way they are hyper aware and could probably be super detectives, to learning about how they basically try to influence the joining of certain genetic lines... all of this is why I'm so excited a TV series about them is in the works.

[Amy]

Mediocre wrote: "Regarding the Spacing Guild - wow, they have far too much power. More on that later.

Bene Gesserit - they're really playing the long game here. I think it's possible that they set a self-fulfillin..."

M: I love that you finished it already! It's a dense book but I'm still going to have a hard time stopping at the proper pages.

I've spent small amounts of time in California deserts -- a handful of days here and there -- and I don't think it's enough to think I have a taste of what it's like.

Ooh I like that thought about the Bene Gesserit!!

[Amy]

Ben wrote: "My first read, I did not flip to the glossary. This time around, I actually read thru all the glossaries before beginning the re-read. I am glad I did.

Dune kicked off my preference for palace int..."

Uhh why has it never occurred to me to read the entire glossary first?

[Amy]

Peter wrote: "As for the glossary, I'm of two minds about it. The bookish nerd in me always loves when SFF books have stuff like glossaries and maps, but on the other hand, I like to try to get through the stori..."

I cannot resist a fictional map. I get way too into (read: distracted by) tracing characters' various journeys when there are maps.

[Amy]

Daniel wrote: "I love how Herbert just drops you into his universe. My first read I remember flipping back to the first pages with publisher information like "wait, did I miss something?" You're thrust into the s..."

I also really appreciate that Herbert doesn't write Leto Atreides as being ignorant about Arrakis. He knows it offers opportunity, to be sure, but he's also aware that the planet has a "too good to be true" element about it. He knows it's part of a power play from the Harkonnens, that Arrakis will likely be a car crash. But he goes forth anyway...

[Mayumi]

I'm a little behind on the October pages, so I will let the other questions for some other time, but I have to say that the way I learn vocabulary is the same way I learn English. English is not my first language and my approach to reading is: I read the sentences and try to get the general idea; if I don't understand anything, I go to the dictionary/glossary; if my understanding is good enough, I go ahead (sometimes I understand what was written with more context.) Also, I don't think I need to know the exact definition of every word to understand the book (I don't know that for my own language!)

I have to say I was a little afraid of the book (it's so big!), but I think I'm starting to enjoy the read.

[Jay]

So much detail to absorb and try to file away for later. I think it's a lot of fun.

[Amy]

Mayumi wrote: "I'm a little behind on the October pages, so I will let the other questions for some other time, but I have to say that the way I learn vocabulary is the same way I learn English. English is not my..."

Anytime I pull a copy of Dune out for a reread I'm always like... "was this book this many pages last time?" It's a blunt weapon. I definitely understand being intimidated by that (see: why I haven't read Les Misérables yet).

I hope you keep enjoying the story!!

[Jay]

C.S. Daley wrote: "I find my ability to figure out new words in a created world fascinating. I can never remember a time having a problem with this. I read Dune for the first time as a freshman in high school (this w..."

Yes, me too. The beginning is thrilling in many ways including the set up of the world building.

[Glenn]

It has been over 20 years since my last read of this. I do remember that my first read thru I was too young to pick up a lot, 10? Maybe 11 years old.


I prefer to learn about the worlds and people as the story unfolds in a more natural way. The people in the tale know these things, and it always takes me a bit out of the story if they stop an explain things all present would already now.


This is pretty easy reading for me, as I have spent a lot of time in the world of Dune, between books, film and tv, and games. However, my first read, and my second once I was more ready for it, were a long read. I found myself going back to reread sections. I am doing the same this time, but more now as an appreciation of the writing than out of confusion.

[Amy]

Glenn wrote: "It has been over 20 years since my last read of this. I do remember that my first read thru I was too young to pick up a lot, 10? Maybe 11 years old.


I prefer to learn about the worlds and people..."

I love that you're coming back to it, Glenn. And I can't imagine trying to read this when I was that age, so kudos to you for even getting through it.

I do appreciate that I can revisit and reread without growing weary of the material. I feel more comfortable in the world and with the terminology with every reading.

Semi-related, I've been wanting to check out the new Dune board game. I'm intrigued by the design.

[Glenn]

The game is interesting. it is pretty heavy, so make sure you are in the mood for a longer game with a lot of crunchiness to it. I have played a bit with it, not a full game yet, as most of my friends are not up for a game of its depth.

[Jay]

Glenn wrote: "The game is interesting. it is pretty heavy, so make sure you are in the mood for a longer game with a lot of crunchiness to it. I have played a bit with it, not a full game yet, as most of my frie..."

Thanks for the tips.

[Amy]

Glenn wrote: "The game is interesting. it is pretty heavy, so make sure you are in the mood for a longer game with a lot of crunchiness to it. I have played a bit with it, not a full game yet, as most of my frie..."

Ahh, so this sounds more like a weekend afternoon/evening kind of game. I like diving into games like that -- but I appreciate this insight ahead of time. :)