Previous BOMs - Authors; A - D: Clarke, Susanna - Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell - Informal Buddy Read; Start: January 8,2015--REVISIT-- 22 June 2018

[Andrea]

Cynthia wrote: "Through Chapter 10

I've read up to chapter 10 as well.

(view spoiler)[I had the same thoughts about the second magician being John Segundas - even his name sounds similar to Jonathan Strange. I can't remember if he had red hair though. Also I'm not sure what kind of magic Mr. Norrell actually has - he did not revive the dead girl, the fairy did that. All he did was call the fairy and negotiate a deal. I'm thinking there must be a double meaning to "half of her life" as well, I wouldn't be surprised if the fairy is taking her during the nights or for half a year. I also think there is more to Mr. Norrell's helper Childermass, maybe he's a fairy too? He seems mysterious.

I found the book kinda slow to begin with (and it's sooo long) that I almost gave up after the first few chapters. But it's got my attention now...
(hide spoiler)]

[Cynthia]

It does have a slow start, Andrea. This is my 4th go and my first time making it past the second chapter. I am determined to finish it now, as it's much better the more I read.

I didn't pick up on (view spoiler)[ the John Segundus/Jonathan Strange similarity. I don't know what Segundus means, but segundo means second. It probably has some other meaning, too. I just know the one.

I also think you're on to something with Childermass. I keep thinking about Norrell not being in York to make the stones speak, but Childermass was there...is that significant? Who is the 'helper' here? Childermass has a way of making Norrell do what he wants him to do. Of course, he wasn't present for the Lazarus maneuver, so the fairy was the only way.
(hide spoiler)]

Truly, I spend as much time trying to figure out what's happening as I would just reading the book and knowing for certain. Isn't that the fun of it, though?

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

Cynthia wrote: "Truly, I spend as much time trying to figure out what's happening as I would just reading the book and knowing for certain. Isn't that the fun of it, though? ..."

Absolutely!!

I remember the first time I read this it tooks me months to get into it as I'd start reading a bit and then get distracted and then start again. Once I got into it though I just immersed myself and loved it. I also remember wondering about Jonathan Strange and when he was going to turn up or if he was an existing character! ;)

I'm just up to chapter 4 now, and one of my favourite lines so far is:
..."If they asked Norrell to do magic, there was always the danger that he might indeed do some. They did not want to see magic done; they only wished to read about it in books." teehee

[Andrea]

Cynthia wrote: "It does have a slow start, Andrea. This is my 4th go and my first time making it past the second chapter. I am determined to finish it now, as it's much better the more I read.

I didn't pick up on..."

I like books that surprise me and that I can't guess what will happen next. And this one seems to be like one of those. It is fun trying to figure out what's happening.

[Cynthia]

Karen wrote: "I'm just up to chapter 4 now, and one of my favourite lines so far is:
..."If they asked Norrell to do magic, there was always the danger that he might indeed do some. They did not want to see magic done; they only wished to read about it in books."


I think I highlighted that! It summed them up quite neatly.

I'm just up to chapter 14, but it's so very interesting. I normally dislike when chapters are short and each one is about someone different, but this doesn't feel disjointed. It feels like it's being told just as it should be.

[Vicki]

I'll catch up on reading this weekend. Only beginning Chapter 12.

[Beth]

This is one of my favorite books of all time, but I've never had a chance to talk about it with anyone else who's read it. I can probably follow discussions of later chapters because I remember it well though. I can skip pages if I have to. Is there a set time for commenting on the book? I mean, if I don't finish the book as fast as others, will the thread close before I can comment.

I'd like to point out a passage from p. 25 of my copy, chapter 1, because the bit about the town of York containing things larger than itself seems to tie in with what the book is all about.
And I hope that all my readers are acquainted with an old English Cathedral town or I fear the significance of Mr Norrell’s chusing that particular place will be lost upon them. They must understand that in an old Cathedral town the great old church is not one building among many; it is the building - different from all others in scale, beauty, and solemnity. Even in modern times when an old Cathedral town may have provided itself with all the elegant appurtenances of civic buildings, assembly and meeting rooms (and York was well-stocked with these) the Cathedral rises above them - a witness to the devotion of our forefathers. It is as if the town contains within itself something larger than itself. When going about ones business in the muddle of narrow streets one is sure to lose sight of the Cathedral, but then the town will open out and suddenly it is there, many times taller and many times larger than any other building, and one realizes that one has reached the heart of the town and that all streets and lanes have in some way led here, to a place of mysteries much deeper than any Mr Norrell knew of.

This was funny:
"You must get me a house, Childermass. Get me a house that says to those that visit it that magic is respectable profession - no less than Law and a great deal more so than Medicine."
Childermass inquired drily if Mr. Norrell (who knew there were such things as jokes in the world or people would not write about them in books, but who had never actually been introduced to a joke or shaken its hand) considered a while before replying at length that no, he did not think they could quite claim that.

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

@Beth
It is one of my all time favourites too ;)
There is no reading schedule, just post the section you are talking about and use spoiler tags if required

The quote you posted is a great one (there are so many)!

[Beth]

Andrea and Cynthia - Your comments made me remember something about Childermass from earlier, chapter 4. The text doesn't come right out and say it, but when Segundus agrees to write a letter to the London Times re. Norrell's enchantment of the statues in the cathedral, I think it's implied that Childermass is using magic to persuade him. (p 34 of my edition). Childermass looks at him silently "as if he were waiting for Mr Segundus to say one thing more - as if he fully expected that Mr Segundus would say it - indeed as if nothing in the world were more certain."

Also from an earlier chapter - Mr Norrell seeing Lady Pole in a dark corner that he thought was unoccupied is foreshadowing for (view spoiler)[her not-quite-there state later on. And when he does notice her, of course there's a "conspiracy to deny that she was ill." (hide spoiler)]

I will comment when I start the Jonathan Strange section (which begins with ch. 23).

[Sarah]

OK ready to get back to this door stopper. I am picking up at chapter 27.

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

I'm starting chapter 13. I love how awkward Norrell is. He wants to be famous (or infamous), but has no idea how to do it or how to be a part of society. So although Lascelles is a bit of a letch he is a necessary one for Norrell right now!

[Sarah]

Yes Norrell is quirky.

[Vicki]

Loved the creepiness of Chapter 16 - Lost Hope

[Cynthia]

Starting Chapter 33 (view spoiler)[

I'm starting to believe that despite all his protestations and earlier actions, Mr Norrell is at heart a theoretical magician. He doesn't love practical magic at all. He used it as a way to become the only 'real' magician in England, but he doesn't believe in it the way the Mr. Strange does.

Also, I'm shocked at how brazen the fairy is becoming! Engaging the king is madness (ha - see what I did there). Now Mr. Strange has no choice but to explore what was happening, because he knows that wasn't his magic. I think he will connect King George and his wife mentioning a silver haired man. That apparently nobody else has seen.

(hide spoiler)]

[Alanna]

I'm in the middle of chapter 22, and I'd forgotten how many people are just total jerks!

(view spoiler)[ I have to say that the ending of Strange and Vinculus' meeting--with both parties just walking off--strikes me as very, very funny. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah]

I am just through chapter 26 and this is the type of stuff I love in the book. Bear with me, I am trying to re orient myself to the story and characters. (view spoiler)[
So this is where Stephen is walking through town receiving different things and is met by some gentleman - maybe the fairy king dude? So the gentlemen is taking leave of Stephen and tells him about a ceremony that will be 're-enacted where they will "dress straw dolls in the children's blood-stained clothes and fling them down and rejoice over their destruction!"
"And do you perform this ceremony every year, sir? I feel sure I would have remembered it if I had seen it before. It is so very... striking."
"I am glad you think so. I perform it whenever I think of it. Of course it was a great deal more striking when we used real children." (hide spoiler)]
See - this is that dialogue I just love. It just cracks me up.

[Cynthia]

I had to laugh at that, too Sarah. Of course,(view spoiler)[ it gives some insight into this character that has basically taken over Lady Pole and Stephen Black. To what end? He's not a nice person. Not even close.

Do you think he could be the Raven King? I don't recall Mr. Norrell saying specifically what happened to the Raven King and if he's back in Fairyland or dead or whatever. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah]

Yeah - I don't know the answer to that one. This book is very dark and very humurous and very other worldly/magical/mystical. I love it. And I love British humor - nothing like it in all the world.

[Beth]

I'm back to this thread sooner than I thought I would be. (view spoiler)[First I'll add my favorite bit from the fairy gentleman, it's along similar lines as Sarah's quote:
"These guests of mine on whose account you are so scrupulous, they are all my vassals and subjects. There is not a one who would dare to criticize me or anyone I would choose to call my friend. And if they did, why! We could always kill them!"

The incongruity of the fairy's regard for Stephen (and he really seem to think he's doing Stephen a favor, weird as that is from a human pov) and his general ruthlessness is great. (hide spoiler)]

About chapter 19, (view spoiler)[ I like how beginning of this chapter notes that Stephen Black has the same "strange malady" as Lady Pole, but no one notices because Stephen is just a servant. Stephen's enchantment happens sooner than I remembered, I thought it was in the Jonathan Strange section. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 20 - here's a link to an explanation of the Tarot reading in this chapter that I found interesting:
https://faeawarenessmonth.wordpress.c...

(view spoiler)[The cards all turning into the Raven King is one of my favorite moments in the book. If this book is ever adapted to the screen, I think this needs to be included, as it's both important and wonderfully dramatic. (hide spoiler)]

Cynthia, it's clear that Norrell wants to sort of "domesticate" magic, but he wants it to be practiced his way, not to be completely theoretical. I think a scene earlier, in chapter 18, (view spoiler)[ Norrell's argument with the fairy gentleman (hide spoiler)] shows that he does care about magic for its own sake, not just as a way to establish his reputation. (view spoiler)[His attitude toward Lady Pole is pretty ruthless - he says, "What is the fate of one young woman compared to the success of English magic?" - but I don't think "the success of English magic" is something he wants just for himself. (hide spoiler)]

I noticed a neat bit of foreshadowing this time around in chapter 27. Um, my other spoiler tags have been for the chapters I'm discussing, I guess I should mention that this one is a spoiler for the end of the "Jonathan Strange" section: (view spoiler)[Strange forgetting the errands Arabella asked him to do establishes that he will fail to notice what's wrong with her later. (hide spoiler)]

ch 28(view spoiler)[ - The footnote about the auction where Arabella bids against Norrell and loses is interesting. Norrell is such a jerk sometimes! Poor Arabella. I remember being a little unsatisfied with the role of women in this book, although the related short story collection The Ladies of Grace Adieu makes up for it somewhat. I'd like to reread that too sometime. (hide spoiler)]

[Cynthia]

Beth wrote: "I'm back to this thread sooner than I thought I would be. ..."

Just a general reply (view spoiler)[
I think the role of women in the book is consistent with the style Clarke is emulating. If women had a stronger role, it wouldn't feel authentic to me.

I disagree that Norrell doesn't want the 'success of English magic' just for himself. He was very antagonistic to the idea of Strange practicing magic, even to the point of limiting his access to the library after he became Norrell's student. His destruction of the theoretical magicians' groups was pointless, really. The distinction between practical and theoretical magic was long established, and only his self-centeredness obliged that act.

A quote from chapter 2:
"...she thought of him as a sort of miser who hoarded magic instead of gold, and as our narrative progresses, I will allow the reader to judge the justice of this portrait of Mr. Norrell's character."

I haven't see anything yet to dissuade me of the above opinion. (hide spoiler)]

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

Sarah wrote: "Yeah - I don't know the answer to that one. This book is very dark and very humurous and very other worldly/magical/mystical. I love it. And I love British humor - nothing like it in all the world."

I agree. There are so many witty lines in the book, and the footnotes especially can be really funny in a subtle way

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

Cynthia wrote: "haven't see anything yet to dissuade me of the above opinion.
..."

Very true. That line from chapter 2 describes him so well

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

Chapter 20

(view spoiler)[
I forgot that Stephen Black gets enchanted. I think I feel more sorry for him than Lady Pole. I guess because atleast her life was saved, whereas he was just unlucky enough to have answered a bell (hide spoiler)]

[Alanna]

Re: Childermass

(view spoiler)[ If we see the Raven King--and I think we will--I'd lay money on either Childermass or the thistle-haired gentleman, proving Norrell either wrong or right about him, respectively. That said, I actually think it's the fairy gentleman, and it's going to turn out to be not so clear-cut. (hide spoiler)]

The writing is super-funny sometimes. I read a line today (sorry, I've forgotten it already) that reminded me of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

[Cynthia]

Alanna wrote: "Re: Childermass

[spoilers removed]

The writing is super-funny sometimes. I read a line today (sorry, I've forgotten it already) that reminded me of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy."

19th century speech patterns are always slightly humorous, especially when the speaker is really angry.

Re Childermass: (view spoiler)[
I've leaned toward him as the Raven King more than once, but I can't quite take the steps all the way over! I have decided that the silver haired fairy can't be the Raven King. He's too cruel, capricious, just a nasty fellow. I can't believe the Raven King would behave in this manner.

Childermass, OTOH, has more than a little magic in him. He's been the real force behind the resurgence in English magic. Norrell is ineffective as a leader, and could never have pulled this off without Childermass. (hide spoiler)]

[Srividya]

I just started this one and have not read much, hope to rectify that soon! I hope there is someone who is still reading it and will join me when I start discussions...

[Sarah]

Oh I will. I can read this book, but not quickly.

[Srividya]

Great Sarah. I still have Mudbound to finish as well.

[Cynthia]

I'm still reading. I have about 25% left.

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

I'm re-reading. Only about 25% in

[Vicki]

Still reading on page 224

[Beth]

chapter 31 -
(view spoiler)[I like the bit about Goya's sketch of Jonathan Strange and the dead Neapolitans. (p 333): "In Madrid the Spanish artist, Francisco Goya, made a sketch in red chalk of Jonathan Strange surrounded by the dead Neapolitans. In the picture Strange is seated on the ground. His gaze is cast down and his arms hang limp at his sides and his whole attitude speaks of helplessness and despair. The Neapolitans crowd around him; some are regarding him hungrily; others have expressions of supplication on their
faces; one is putting out a tentative finger to stroke the back of his hair. It is, needless to say, quite different from any other portrait of Jonathan Strange." (hide spoiler)]

chapter 38 - A great quote about the Raven King on the last page. I just love these kinds of details that hint at something larger than the main story:
(view spoiler)[
"No one knows why in 1138 he caused the moon to disappear from the sky and made it travel through all the lakes and rivers of England. We do not know why in 1202 he
quarreled with Winter and banished it from his kingdom, so that for four years Northern England enjoyed continual Summer. Nor do we know why for thirty consecutive nights in May and June of 1345 every man, woman and child in the kingdom dreamt that they had been gathered together upon a dark red plain beneath a pale golden sky to build a tall black tower. Each night they laboured, waking in the morning in their own beds completely exhausted. The dream only ceased to trouble them when, on the thirtieth night, the tower and its fortifications were completed." (hide spoiler)]

chapter 39 - (view spoiler)[I really love the conversation between Strange and Norrell in this chapter. It's one of the most intense scenes in the book.

The footnote about the glovemaker's child is one of my favorites in the whole book. Also, this scene reveals that Norrell's resentment of the Raven King isn't just philosophical, but a result of disappointment: "Do you think that he cares what happens to England? I tell you he does not. He abandoned us long ago."

Of course Norrell is partly wrong about magic being "all that either of us cares about," since Strange has Arabella.

Favorite quotes from chapter 39:

"One room contained nothing but a high mirror. Room and mirror seemed to have quarreled at some time for the mirror showed the room to be filled with birds but the room was empty. Yet the glovemaker's child could hear birdsong all around her."

"We are magicians. It is the beginning and end of me and the beginning and end of you. It is all that either of us cares about. If you leave this house today and pursue your own course, who will you talk to? - as we are talking now? - there is no one. You will be quite alone." In a tone almost of pleading, he whispered, "Do not do this!"

"I am certain now to get no sight or smell of the books which matter! How is a magician to exist without books? Let someone explain that to me. It is like asking a politician to achieve high office without the benefit of bribes or patronage."

"Yes, he does love me. Or at least he tells me that he does. But what good is that to me? It has never warmed me when I was cold - and I always am cold, you know. It has never shortened a long, dreary ball by so much as a minute or stopped a procession through long, ghostly corridors. It has never saved me from any misery at all." (hide spoiler)]

[Srividya]

Have just read about 50 pages. I know that's not much but got distracted again by other reads! Anyway, coming back.. I am loving the style of writing and Mr. Norrell's character. It is humorous in parts, without being in your face kind of humour and yet quite enchanting in its own way. I am taking it slow because I really want to savour the story without rushing through it.

I quite agree with the points being made towards a Dickensian style of writing.

(view spoiler)[Loved the scene in the Cathedral but then found it a little anti climactic when nothing happens after that, except for the disbanding. I wonder whether this has some significance to the entire tale or was it just to show Mr. Norrell's prowess as a magician. I can't help feel a niggle in the back of my head that something major is going to happen in the next few chapters!

Mr. Honeyfoot was just too funny and naive, if I can use that word. He simply believed and isn't that a wonderful thing?

Childermass seems to be a force to reckon with behind his nonchalance, doesn't he? (hide spoiler)]

[Beth]

A quick note about the roles of women - I think they are actually even more sidelined in this book than I expect in novels set in this period.

Yes, women's roles were limited, but on the other hand there are many books from the 19th c in which women have a bit more agency than here. (Some examples I've read: Bleak House, Jane Eyre, Romola.)

On the other other hand, this isn't that kind of book, probably for good reason. The restoration of English magic wouldn't have been accepted if it had been a serious challenge to the status quo. In this post (spoilers for chapter 30, but not beyond that) Susanna Clarke has some interesting things to say about this, and answers some other questions.

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

Slowly making my way through.
Chapter 23 is one of my favourites.
There were so many lines I was highlighting! For example:
"Tue, Laurence Strange had objected strongly to the lady's poverty, but he had put it out of his power to make any serious difficulty when he froze himself to death"

(view spoiler)[ I just love the differences between Strange and Norrell in terms of personality and also how and why they decided to become magicians. (hide spoiler)]

[Alanna]

I was finding myself less and less willing to pick it up, so I took a few days' break. Now I'm around page 650 (out of 1000)* and I'm so worried about (view spoiler)[ Arabella (hide spoiler)]!

*Sorry, I left my book at work so I can't give a chapter reference.

[Sarah]

Well I feel like I will never finish this book. I think I need a strategy. I have so many others I am reading that I am trying to finish so I can start a couple other BRs and library books I need to finish. Maybe I can read a little this weekend.

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

I'm going quite slowly too. Mainly because it is a re-read so I'm prioritising other books. But I'm loving it and will hopefully get a good chunk done this weekend!

[Alanna]

I absolutely flew through the last 400 pages today, and...woooow.Just wow. I read somewhere (I think) that Clarke is writing a sequel, and I really hope that's true.

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

Don't hold your breath... it took her 10 years to write this! ;)
The Ladies of Grace Adieu and Other Stories is a 'kind of' sequel. It is a set of short stories set in the same world

[Beth]

Chapter 41 - favorite quote
(view spoiler)["Houses, like people, are apt to become rather eccentric if left too much on their own; this house was the architectural equivalent of an old gentleman in a worn dressing-gown and torn slippers, who got up and went to bed at odd times of day, and who kept up a continual conversation with friends no one else could see." (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 42 favorite quote
(view spoiler)["He understood for the first time that the world is not dumb at all, but merely waiting for someone to speak to it in a language it understands. In the fairy's song the earth recognized the names by which it called itself."

Apparently John Murray (who publishes Strange's book) was a real publisher during this period. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 43 - spoilers for the rest of the book:
(view spoiler)[The title, The curious adventure of Mr Hyde, is probably a reference to Dr Jekyll & Mr Hyde, referring to the theme of doubles, since the Arabella who "dies" is really the moss-oak. (hide spoiler)]

I've finished the reread but I'll comment on volume III later. I kind of wish this was a formal buddy read with questions, but I don't usually read the books for those discussions.

Alanna and Karen, there is another novel in the same setting in progress, described in this interview:
"I'm working on a book that starts a few years after Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell finishes, but focuses on some different characters. I got interested, while writing S&N, in Childermass and Vinculus and the people basically a bit lower down the social scale and less intrigued by the sort of Jane Austen stratum. Which is actually what really happened to Jane Austen. I mean her characters that she's writing about by the end of her career were actually a bit further down the social scale than the ones she started off with in Pride and Prejudice, where at least the heroes are incredibly rich."

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

Great quotes Beth!

Thanks for the article, yes I would say she is referring to The Ladies of Grace Adieu and Other Stories in that :)

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

I'm still going... Up to chapter 43

Interesting how at this point (view spoiler)[ Strange is slightly turning into Norrell! Shutting himself off from the world and immersing himself in books (well, writing in this case)
(hide spoiler)]

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

I'm now at chapter 63... The home stretch!

(view spoiler)[ Strange's character has changed so much and I really like this part of the book and how it becomes a little darker and there is quite a lot of suspense as we hope that Lady Pole, Stephen and Arabella are rescued... but then we don't know how they can be or what happens once they are. I also wonder how people feel about Norrell at this point. I find myself feeling a little sorry for him in an odd kind of way.
(hide spoiler)]

[Beth]

chapter 53: (view spoiler)[I thought this bit was interesting, about Strange's motives - he says (referring to himself in 3rd person): "He tells himself he is doing it to get himself a fairy-servant and further the cause of English magic. But really he is only doing it to terrify Mr Norrell!"

I didn't expect that, and I wouldn't have guessed it if it hadn't been pointed out. (hide spoiler)]

Karen, I feel sorry for Norrell too. I particularly like this bit from chapter 63, (view spoiler)[ after Norrell describes some examples magical duels to Lascelles:
"And did such duels ever end in the death of one of the magicians?"
"What?" Mr Norrell stared at him, horror-struck. "No! That is to say, I do not know. I do not think so."
Lascelles smiled. "Yet the magic must exist surely? If you have your mind to it, I dare say you could think of half a dozen spells that would do the trick. It would be like a common duel with pistols or swords. There would be no question of a prosecution afterwards. Besides, the victor's friends and servants would be perfectly justified in helping him shroud the matter in all possible secrecy."
Mr Norrell was silent. Then he said, "It will not come to that."

Choosing Lascelles over Childermass was pretty stupid. (hide spoiler)]

So I have a question about chapter 64, if anyone else has read that far.(view spoiler)[ Why does Lady Pole assume that Strange has betrayed Arabella somehow? Is she just assuming the worst about him, because of her experience with Norrell? (hide spoiler)]

I'll probably be back to talk about the ending later.

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

Hi Beth
Yes, I think that is right. (view spoiler)[ Lady Pole doesn't trust magicians and she assumes that Strange hasn't looked for, or tried to help Arabella. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah]

I am not in the home stretch. I keep not getting this book read. A snail's pace on this one, and now no points for the freaking door stopper.

[Vicki]

I keep reading something else and then coming back to Strange & Norrell to try and get it finished and stored away. Only on chapter 42!

[Moderators of NBRC, Challenger-in-Chief]

*********THIS BUDDY READ IS BEING REVISITED!***********

Date to start reading June 22, 2018

[kat (wanderfulbooks)]

Hi Victoria! Do you want to set specific page/chapter to read a day? Or just discuss and put spoiler tags as we read along?