All the Light We Cannot See - Whole Book Discussion [Spoilers] (November 2014)

[Lily]

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: ""And it is a weakness of this book that it has many aspects of genre fiction, despite the huge amount of research that has gone into it."

This is literary snobbishness in its most transparent, bal..."

Xan -- well, I don't understand well enough "aspects of genre fiction" to really judge. If what is meant here is that the writer has allowed the plot to drive the characters rather than the character development to create the story, is the statement perhaps justified, as some of the discussion here has suggested the author did allow?

Would others who better understand the significance of being labelled "genre fiction" please help us understand here. What aspects of the book do cause it to be so labelled?

[Marc]

Cartwright's piece is less a review and more a quick book summary with a paragraph of unexplained criticisms thrown in at the end. Without pointing out what "aspects of genre fiction" he's talking about, nor explaining how they weaken the book in is opinion, his points seem merely dismissive.

That being said, I did feel what he mentioned--that almost-immediate inevitability that the two characters would meet and I thought within the first 70 pages or so: "Oh, please don't let this be a huge book where we just wait for the two children on opposite sides of the war to meet and either fall in love or have the boy save the girl!" It seemed sort of predictable, cliche, and I was worried there really wouldn't be much room for character growth. I think Doerr takes us through the story in a rather lush and beautiful way, but the story itself doesn't have too much to tell us on a deeper level (no real exploration of the war, no real moral struggle for the characters--for the most part) and Doerr seems to shield the reader from most of the direct horrors throughout the book until the end. The short, fairy-tale like chapters gave it a really wistful, ephemeral feel, but I think they also worked against the narrative--you can't sustain that type of lightness and dreamlike quality in such a long work. It's like too much sugar.

[Xan]

Now that's a conclusion supported by argument. Thank you, Marc. But your criticism isn't genre related -- at least I don't see it that way. Your criticism is that of a weakness in the story that writers of any genre or literary work can fall prey to. I don't find this as troubling as you do. We know the two will meet because the publisher's blurb about the book says so, and if anything, the blurb is misleading, because it leads us to believe (1) they will meet much earlier than they do, and, (2) the meeting will mean more to the story than it does. I think the book is outstanding for what it does do.

But to Cartwright's review: The very fact that we don't know what he means is part of the problem. He asserts a conclusion without a supporting argument. I am left believing he believes the very fact that the story has elements of genre fiction -- whatever those elements might be -- lessens the literary worth of the book, and no explanation is needed. It's guilty of genre. That's literary snobbishness. I see too much of this kind of unsupported criticism to dismiss it. It's so bad, that when a literary work comes along that is also genre fiction, critics (and publishers) refuse to admit it is genre fiction for fear the book will be denied the accolades and awards it deserves.

[Marc]

You're right, Xan. None of my criticism was genre-related and I agree with you that there is a lot of knee-jerk reaction to anything that might have elements of genre. I'm wondering if this type of criticism is tied to the topic that seems to keep coming up: plot-driven vs. character-driven writing (a distinction I think is often blurred). I've been thinking about starting a separate thread about how we define "literature" and looking at the history of the novel (looks like your and Lily's exchange gave me the impetus I needed).

I almost never read book blurbs so I rarely know what a book is about (unless I get several dozen pages in and feel I'm completely lost)! I did enjoy the book quite a bit.

[Lily]

Marc wrote: "...It's like too much sugar. ..."

Those are most helpful comments, Marc, but I will take issue a bit with "too much sugar." I think my reaction relates to what I saw as the horror embedded in the story -- a father who disappears, Etienne -- a man still traumatized by the prior war who must find it within himself to act, the story of Frederick, those like Dr. Hauptmann and Volkheimer who were pulled into an evil system, the contrasts between the people in San Malo (Madame Ruelle, Madame Manec, Levitte), the venal Von Rumpel and his wife and their daughters, the sadness and fears of Jutta, Frau Elena's futility in guarding the orphanage, in fact, the very strafing of a city based on false information about enemy presence. The sad, quiet tidbits on what survival looks like. A sense in which the very structure of the story conceals its message of hope, of the possibility of light.

As I write this, two thoughts come to me -- much of the story feels embedded in the minor characters and, yes, what happened to the characters later maybe isn't as superfluous as seemed on initial reading.

I'm still not satisfied with understanding all the roles of Jules Verne to the story-telling.

[Xan]

Marc,

I would participate in that thread.

[Marc]

Xan, I put the thread up here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/12020516-defining-literature-the-history-of-the-novel

Lily, I do think there is horror embedded in the story and some of it cuts through the lyricism and beauty of the writing, but a lot of it was dulled/masked for me personally (probably puts me in the minority of readers). I'm still trying to sift through my reactions to this book (been about a month since I read it--initial thoughts were that it was beautiful but I felt I was being directed a little too much into what to think and feel about things; again, that's just my personal reaction to it). I also don't know what to make of the Jules Verne references, but I haven't read him, which makes it even more unclear.

[Lily]

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Marc, I would participate in that thread."

What seems to be a most informative new tome on the novel has been published: The Novel: A Biography by Michael Schmidt (be careful as to who appears if you search for the author -- I am very confused at the moment by what is on the GR data base -- it seems to vary by edition and sometimes links to an entirely different author. Amazon seems to provide a clearer linkage.)

I used it for a discussion of John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress, but am intrigued enough that I may find myself investing in it, if I can figure out shelf space!

[Lily]

Marc wrote: "Lily, I do think there is horror embedded in the story and some of it cuts through the lyricism and beauty of the writing..."

Marc -- I don't know that the horror does cut through the lyricism and beauty of the writing (and the writing versus the story itself) -- and that is what makes the title troubling to me at times. It seems both a story of the light that is hidden and the horror that is as well. But war stories usually show the horror. Something troubling issues from one that suggests light quite the way this one does. Yet somehow it kind of belongs to survival, with its guilt and hope and relief and sadness. Then the troubling image of the invaluable diamond among the mollusks in the sea, somehow representing all the confiscated art still being found in hidden caches?

I continue to have a hard time figuring out why I like this novel, and what is it, really. That mystery may be part of the allure?

[Lily]

http://www.euronews.com/2015/05/26/wh...

Has a good picture of Saint-Malo, and some of Doerr at local book-signings.

Plot summary: (view spoiler)["The plot takes place in Saint-Malo and recounts a love story involving a blind French girl and a young German soldier whose talents are employed by the Nazis for their youth education programs and the hunt for French Resistance fighters during the occupation. (hide spoiler)]

"Critics lauded Doerr’s writing for its rich imagery and the sense of emotional detail. In February 2015 when the book had spent 38 weeks on the New York Times Best Seller list for hardcover fiction – an incredible success for a writer who had been anything but a household name – Doerr wanted to present his acclaimed book in Saint-Malo, the town that inspired the tale. He presented it at the International House of Writers and Poets during the ‘Etonnants Voyageurs’ Festival, an international book and film event started in 1990. Each year, around 200 writers from around the world gather in Saint-Malo for three days.

"Years ago, when Doerr went to Saint-Malo for the first time, he came to speak about two ideas: firstly the importance of communication, the light we literally cannot see on the electromagnetic spectrum, namely radio waves. It’s an allusion to the idea that waves can be transformed into words, into ideas and finally into acts.

"Doerr’s second idea was to try to get into the mind of a young soldier fighting for the Nazis – or any other relentless, uncompromising and ultimately evil cause..."

Does he succeed on that second idea?

[Maureen]

Lily wrote: "http://www.euronews.com/2015/05/26/wh...

Has a good picture of Saint-Malo, and some of Doerr at local book-signings.

Plot summary: [spoi..."

I think Doerr is successful in portraying the mind-set of young soldiers fighting for the Nazis; in fact he shows the complexity and varying attitudes of these soldiers from Werner, who never loses his humanity, to the cruelty of the boys at the Nazi Youth camp who destroy Frederick, to the varying attitudes of Volkheimer, and to the mindless brutes whom Werner is with while in the field under Von Rumpel's command (I hope I am remembering some of these details correctly.).

[Maureen]

Also, thanks Lily for another good article on this novel!

[Lily]

Maureen wrote: "Also, thanks Lily for another good article on this novel!"

Thanks, Maureen. So long as Google keeps feeding me, I'll keep sharing!

[Lily]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/05/boo...

Another NYT article, this one featuring the author.

"If you had to name one book that made you who you are today, what would it be?

"Here’s a strange answer: “Be True to Your School: A Diary of 1964,” by Bob Greene. I don’t remember much about the book itself, but our 10th-grade English teacher, Mr. Jay, had us read the book, then keep a daily journal. I fell immediately in love with the ritual, the work of transcribing my days into sentences. When summer arrived, I didn’t stop; I haven’t really stopped since. I like to think that maintaining that practice all these years — translating experience into language — has helped me become a more attentive person."

That last sentence is delightful -- I never attained it myself and haven't been successful in teaching it to my kids.

The article is full of references to other books -- if I had the time, I'd quote more and provide the Goodreads links. But read the article and see if any catch your attention.

[LindaJ^]

Loved reading about Doerr's love of books and even noted a couple I need to explore a bit more. Thanks for posting Lily.

[Lily]

Linda wrote: "Loved reading about Doerr's love of books and even noted a couple I need to explore a bit more. Thanks for posting Lily."

Glad you enjoyed it, Linda. Reminds me that I might go back and pull his list or at least few suggestions.

[Lily]

Here's one piece from the article referred to above, with Goodreads links:

"Whom do you consider the best writers — novelists, essayists, critics, journalists, poets — working today?

"I’ll read anything Anne Carson writes, anything J. M. Coetzee writes and anything Cormac McCarthy writes. I’ll drop whatever I’m doing to read a new Mary Ruefle essay. Andrea Barrett constructs wondrous short stories about wonder. Maggie Nelson’s intellect is dazzling. Marilynne Robinson is an idol. Pynchon for pure linguistic joy. Steven Millhauser continues to make astonishing things, and I’ll be eager to read Hilary Mantel’s last Cromwell novel. In terms of young writers, or younger than me, anyway, I think Karen Russell has a special manic language superpower. And I think Elif Batuman and Teju Cole are exploding with promise."

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/05/boo...

[Lily]

Here's another (see @117 for link to original article):

"What genres do you especially enjoy reading? And which do you avoid?

"Oh, I don’t know if I avoid genres, per se; I’m not sure it’s useful to think in terms of them at all. Why, for example, shelve “In Patagonia” with travel books and “A Moveable Feast” with novels? If the sentences are meticulously made, I’ll read anything, whether it’s as destabilizing as a Gary Lutz short story or as melancholy as a Chris Ware comic. The only books I give up on are texts where the writer’s attention is concentrated so heavily on narrative questions that his or her use of language becomes careless."

[Lily]

A pleasant little review that comes close to revealing some story points, but is more interesting for the perspective of the reviewer towards the story:

http://kwbu.org/post/likely-stories-a...

You might want to note the other titles in the picture accompanying the article.

[Caecilia]

I read the book about one year ago - with my long-time book forum. And while I cannot explain it well enough, for me - it did not live up to eg "The Book Thief" by Markus Zusak.

Perhaps, the story of Marie felt a slight nudge too pushy on the sentimental side - I am not sure. All in all, it is a book I have recommended to friends and family. The storytelling is smooth, it reads lightly - but, it just wasn't all that my kind of book.

[Marc]

Caecilia, Did I see on your shelves that you rated All the Light slightly higher than The Book Thief? The latter is still on my to-be-read list, and while I did enjoy All the Light (and rated it relatively high), I found that it felt like one knew what was going to happen and the fairytale-like delivery was strained a bit by the length of the book. I still enjoyed it despite these complaints.

[Lily]

Although I would consider myself a "fan" of AtLWCS, I do think The Book Thief is a well written novel, especially intriguing for its unusual narrator. It comes close in on the dangers and risks individuals and families took during those harrowing years. Still, although both deal with young people and the war, I see them as two quite dissimilar books that look at different aspects of a large and complicated time and place. I'm not quite sure why so many seem to sort of do an either-or in comparing them. I would be interested in those who do so saying more about their whys and wherefores. I hope most of us have read and will continue to read about the many facets of that time. Undoubtedly, there are and there will be places and times where its issues will have to be faced again and again. If only our reading can help us find some ways to avoid or deal in more humane ways, both as individuals and in structuring our institutions and political systems. At least such is my (optimistic) hope.

[Lily]

PS -- It seems to me that AtLWCS "shows" the ten years it took Doerr to write it in the delicacy and intricacy of the story telling. It is a book that I suspect improves with each reading -- the reader will notice aspects not apparent when read for plot, as most first reads are for many of us. I have not re-read the entire book, but I have parts of it. Is it a book that would stand up to multiple reads? I'm not so sure about that -- I have a sense it might be fairly exhaustible in about three close reads.

As for The Book Thief, it too could probably stand up well to two or three reads. I know I rather wanted a second read when I finished it; the story had been seemed convoluted and folded upon itself enough. (But I was reading it alongside something else at the time. ) For either book, I think a re-read might reveal the author along with the story. Also, the intricacy of the writing, both in individual sentences and phrases and in the overall structure of the storytelling.

[Luella]

Terry wrote: "These two reviews are interesting in that they both find the novel flawed, but in very different ways, one almost because of the prose and one despite it:

http://www.npr.org/2014/05/10/3104598......"

I agree with the guardian article a bit. I was thinking about the strangeness there sort of what Hollywood does giving everyone a British accent if its a foreign movie no matter where in the world it takes place.

I also agree that the overwriting made the book waaay too long. He could have cut probably about 100 or so pages off the book and lost nothing of the story.

Here's a review I posted elsewhere "It was an interesting bit of history but I got tired of the author's writing style, seemed like a lot of repetition could have many shaved just a few pages off the book. Also yes that bit about the old Nazi did seem out of place a bit, as someone else had mentioned like I say something about the writing bugged me. Like its in the style of now I guess multiple authors jumping around but it did get irritating after a while. I get that the story made more sense weaved this way. But that method almost seems over done to me at this point..

I dunno I kind of liken it to the Da Vinci Code. Compelling story but not the best writing although this author's writing wedges out that book this book seemed too drawn out like Dickens in A Tale of Two Cities. It would have worked great in a something published in parts. Was this published in parts at one point?

Either way I do think we can thank the author for bringing up Saint-Malo just as Vonnegut brought up the bombing of Leipzig in his famous time-jumping novel Slaughterhouse-Five.

Both events were as we can see it now horribly unnecessary. While All the Light We Cannot See's story was interesting for its perspective I would hands down read Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse before I would ever touch this novel again. That one stuck with me and I doubt All the Light We Cannot See will. If anything the images of the sea in Saint Malo and the brutality of the boys in the school brought me right back to another classic, Lord of the Flies.

It's like Doerr tried to include cram all sorts of things into this novel and only executed one well, and that was imagery if anything stays with me from this one it will be his well crafted (although at times long winded and too often repeated) imagery throughout the story. "