SciFi and Fantasy Book Club
discussion
"The Outside" First Impressions *No Spoilers*
SciFi and Fantasy Book Club
discussion
"The Outside" First Impressions *No Spoilers*
Allison Hurd
Welcome to the tentacled winner of the mod curated sci fi poll for October!
So, whatcha think of the beginning?
Please leave all commentary regarding any plot points, character growth/later introductions or specifics for the full discussion thread open on the 7th!
For those looking for content warnings, this month they appear to be minimal, however: (view spoiler)
So, whatcha think of the beginning?
Please leave all commentary regarding any plot points, character growth/later introductions or specifics for the full discussion thread open on the 7th!
For those looking for content warnings, this month they appear to be minimal, however: (view spoiler)
Anna
Kate wrote: "From the first couple of paragraphs this tentacled winner wrapped tighter around my heart and wouldn’t let go."
This quote is a tentacled winner! :D I'm glad you're enjoying it!
This quote is a tentacled winner! :D I'm glad you're enjoying it!
Allison Hurd
I looooved the opening so much. I got an honest to goodness chill down my spine and everything!
Gabi
I must admit that I have a hard time with it. It's the second time ( after "Ninefox Gambit") that my brain functions seem to be incompatible with the writing style. I have problems concentrating on the text. I've already finished but I have to re-read large parts of the book to form any kind of opinion.
Travis Foster
Three chapters in and loving this. It’s grabbed me. I’m listening to the audio book, which is fantastic. Fingers crossed the good start continues...
Raucous
Kate wrote: "... From the first couple of paragraphs this tentacled winner wrapped tighter around my heart and wouldn’t let go..."
Yes! That's one of the most compelling openings that I can ever remember reading. Wow. There's so much implied but not directly stated in those paragraphs. Shudder. I'm really looking forward to seeing where she takes the book from there.
Yes! That's one of the most compelling openings that I can ever remember reading. Wow. There's so much implied but not directly stated in those paragraphs. Shudder. I'm really looking forward to seeing where she takes the book from there.
Kristjan
I am currently on Chapter 9
It took me a bit to actually get into the story; the start seemed to rely so much on existing religious stereotypes that it initially seemed to be setting up a satirical attack on anyone who holds strong religious views ... and I reflexively responded more negatively than I should have. It was not until I got several chapters in that I realized how foundational this context was for the over all world building, which so far is extraordinary. This book is on track to become one of my favorites.
I would not consider this as hard sci-fi (yet ... this may change depending on how they handle any explanation of Outside); however, it is closer than most within the sci-fi genre and was very well done (I would put this in the same neighborhood as the Expanse series).
It took me a bit to actually get into the story; the start seemed to rely so much on existing religious stereotypes that it initially seemed to be setting up a satirical attack on anyone who holds strong religious views ... and I reflexively responded more negatively than I should have. It was not until I got several chapters in that I realized how foundational this context was for the over all world building, which so far is extraordinary. This book is on track to become one of my favorites.
I would not consider this as hard sci-fi (yet ... this may change depending on how they handle any explanation of Outside); however, it is closer than most within the sci-fi genre and was very well done (I would put this in the same neighborhood as the Expanse series).
Dan Drake
My own first impressions: gods? Huh? Humans have managed to colonize other planets with computers made from...vacuum tubes? What is going on here?
I'm intrigued!
On the other hand, I think the main-character-is-autistic is kinda done in a heavy-handed way. Hoffman is telling us, not showing us that she's autistic.
I also got the sense that Hoffman thinks of austism as a binary condition: you are or aren't. But I think of it as a spectrum, and that many autism-associated traits just a part of normal human neurodiversity. Okay, so Yasira is on the extreme end of the distribution, but Hoffman seems to be working a bit too hard at it -- and then, as I've kept reading, I really don't see how Yasira's autism is actually relevant to or affecting the story.
That's not a big complaint, though. Bring on the gods and monsters!
I'm intrigued!
On the other hand, I think the main-character-is-autistic is kinda done in a heavy-handed way. Hoffman is telling us, not showing us that she's autistic.
I also got the sense that Hoffman thinks of austism as a binary condition: you are or aren't. But I think of it as a spectrum, and that many autism-associated traits just a part of normal human neurodiversity. Okay, so Yasira is on the extreme end of the distribution, but Hoffman seems to be working a bit too hard at it -- and then, as I've kept reading, I really don't see how Yasira's autism is actually relevant to or affecting the story.
That's not a big complaint, though. Bring on the gods and monsters!
Allison Hurd
Dan please be careful of spoilers! this is flirting with the line, if it's not over it. it's tricky, so i'm not upset, just gotta be careful of others :)
Sarah
I’m so jealous of you all having a good time with this. I didn’t put my copy on hold quick enough and now I have to wait a few weeks.
Glad to see positive feedback though!
Glad to see positive feedback though!
Michael
I'm at 25% and just now feeling safe to come to this first impressions thread! This book has a lot of surprises, and doesn't really let you know what the plot (might be) about until quite a bit into it.
I'm not an expert on neurodiversity, but I do actually feel the author "shows" a lot of Yasira's autism through her actions and interactions with people. She does bring up the topic of autism a lot in her head, but it might be natural for someone who is constantly reminded of that fact by others.
I'm loving the world building, a lot of it is "aha" moments that I'd love to discuss in the spoilers thread. The writing has not been a problem for me, though I am sometimes caught off guard by the tone switches between light and whimsical to serious and analytical. I often end up enjoying both, though.
And I like the little intros at the beginning of each chapter, that I will forever associate with Dune just because that was my first memorable exposure to the technique. I find myself going back to earlier chapters to reread those blurbs now that I have more context.
I'm not an expert on neurodiversity, but I do actually feel the author "shows" a lot of Yasira's autism through her actions and interactions with people. She does bring up the topic of autism a lot in her head, but it might be natural for someone who is constantly reminded of that fact by others.
I'm loving the world building, a lot of it is "aha" moments that I'd love to discuss in the spoilers thread. The writing has not been a problem for me, though I am sometimes caught off guard by the tone switches between light and whimsical to serious and analytical. I often end up enjoying both, though.
And I like the little intros at the beginning of each chapter, that I will forever associate with Dune just because that was my first memorable exposure to the technique. I find myself going back to earlier chapters to reread those blurbs now that I have more context.
Gabi
Everybody here is so enthusiastic for the book. I really have to try it again.
Anna
Gabi wrote: "Everybody here is so enthusiastic for the book. I really have to try it again."
You really don't, it's impossible to love every book! If I reread each group book I thought was OK and others loved, I'd never get to read new books. What I love is reading why people loved it even if I didn't, that way I get something out of it even if it didn't grab me like everyone else.
You really don't, it's impossible to love every book! If I reread each group book I thought was OK and others loved, I'd never get to read new books. What I love is reading why people loved it even if I didn't, that way I get something out of it even if it didn't grab me like everyone else.
Gabi
Anna wrote: "Gabi wrote: "Everybody here is so enthusiastic for the book. I really have to try it again."
You really don't, it's impossible to love every book! If I reread each group book I thought was OK and ..."
I want to re-read it, cause it is not a case of being completely underwhelmed by the book (like it was with Gideon or Drowning Deep where a re-read won't change a thing), but a case of not being able to concentrate due to ... I don't know what.
You really don't, it's impossible to love every book! If I reread each group book I thought was OK and ..."
I want to re-read it, cause it is not a case of being completely underwhelmed by the book (like it was with Gideon or Drowning Deep where a re-read won't change a thing), but a case of not being able to concentrate due to ... I don't know what.
Anna
We won't stop you! :D I just don't want anyone to feel like they have to put a ton of effort into group books. There are so many other books out there waiting for you! I hope your reread provides some clarification as to why you couldn't connect with it.
Don Gagnon
“Or have you forgotten the fate of the galaxy is at stake.”
—Ada Hoffmann, “The Outside” (2019, Jun. 11)
—Ada Hoffmann, “The Outside” (2019, Jun. 11)
Allison Hurd
I keep seeing that there's been a post here and then it's gone, which is...ominous. I hope all of you are on the planet you intended to be on.
Gabi
Allison wrote: "I keep seeing that there's been a post here and then it's gone, which is...ominous. I hope all of you are on the planet you intended to be on."
LOL! That was me. I deleted it, cause it is better for the spoiler thread.
LOL! That was me. I deleted it, cause it is better for the spoiler thread.
Hank
20% in and enjoying it.
Allison Hurd
XD
Raucous
Gabi wrote: "Allison wrote: "I keep seeing that there's been a post here and then it's gone, which is...ominous. I hope all of you are on the planet you intended to be on."
LOL! That was me. ..."
You weren't the only one. I wrote a comment on weird parallels in the discussions for this book and A Night in the Lonesome October, couldn't decide if/where it belonged or if it might unintentionally spoil something and finally gave up and deleted it.
LOL! That was me. ..."
You weren't the only one. I wrote a comment on weird parallels in the discussions for this book and A Night in the Lonesome October, couldn't decide if/where it belonged or if it might unintentionally spoil something and finally gave up and deleted it.
Anna
Ooh, that's a tough one. Perhaps in the Outside spoiler thread, in tags? Or in the Lonesome October thread, again with tags!
W. Hartman
I’m at 16%.
Very good so far. I like the language and the pace, though at one moment I got bored and I can’t figure out why.
But it passed.
I understand the main character is autistic (don’t believe this is a spoiler) - but I don’t see it in the text. Don’t feel it.
Frankly, I don’t care too much. The storyline is too good.
Looking forward to read more.
Very good so far. I like the language and the pace, though at one moment I got bored and I can’t figure out why.
But it passed.
I understand the main character is autistic (don’t believe this is a spoiler) - but I don’t see it in the text. Don’t feel it.
Frankly, I don’t care too much. The storyline is too good.
Looking forward to read more.
Bonnie
Just started and loving the characters and storyline. It's a little hard reading in a way (for me) because of the science part of the fiction, which knowing me, I may be skimming a lot. I don't like to think so much when I'm reading for entertainment.
Kaa
30%. I am really liking this - I didn't know what to expect from the book, and I'm enjoying being surprised.
Kaa
However, it makes me a bit uncomfortable to be adjudicating (in this discussion) whether an autistic character written by an autistic author is "autistic enough".
Kristjan
Allison wrote: "Dan please be careful of spoilers! this is flirting with the line, if it's not over it. it's tricky, so i'm not upset, just gotta be careful of others :)"
So I need a little help here ... I have re-read Dan's comment several times after finishing the book and I am not clear on what the spoilers might have been. (view spoiler) You mention that this was tricky ... What did I miss?
So I need a little help here ... I have re-read Dan's comment several times after finishing the book and I am not clear on what the spoilers might have been. (view spoiler) You mention that this was tricky ... What did I miss?
Allison Hurd
the tech used, the size of the universe, later discussion of the character's condition...
that all tells people who are spoiler phobic a lot about the book that they otherwise would have discovered for themselves. We try to keep the first impressions thread very general-- we've only recently allowed generic thoughts like "I loved it" because that suggests to people things about the whole book, not just the beginning.
so in this thread, vague is definitely better! the full spoiler thread is up now and ready for whatever!
that all tells people who are spoiler phobic a lot about the book that they otherwise would have discovered for themselves. We try to keep the first impressions thread very general-- we've only recently allowed generic thoughts like "I loved it" because that suggests to people things about the whole book, not just the beginning.
so in this thread, vague is definitely better! the full spoiler thread is up now and ready for whatever!
Kristjan
Allison wrote: "the tech used, the size of the universe, later discussion of the character's condition...
Thank you
Thank you
Allison Hurd
sure thing! it's hard to gauge, and we try not to be jerks about it, so we appreciate folks getting to help us find the line :)
Oleksandr Zholud
I just started (15% in) and I agree that the protagonist doesn't sound autistic. According to https://medlineplus.gov/autismspectru... common symptoms are problems with communications and social behavior, but she talks great, even on wisecracking side...
Anna
I have to point out that the autism spectrum disorder here is own voices.
Anna
Kaa wrote: "However, it makes me a bit uncomfortable to be adjudicating (in this discussion) whether an autistic character written by an autistic author is "autistic enough"."
Kaa said it better.
Kaa said it better.
Oleksandr Zholud
Anna wrote: "I have to point out that the autism spectrum disorder here is own voices."
Both you and Kaa said it well. I cannot be a judge whether a protagonist is autistic but I can comment how the description "feels" for me. Can my feelings be wrong - definitely.
While there can be said a lot of good things about the idea of 'own voices' I disagree that in all cases they would be above the alternative by the very definition. Just one example: Ian Flemming worked with Britain's Naval Intelligence Division as a naval intelligence officer during the WW2. Later as a journalist he also dealt with intelligence. However, his James Bond, maybe the iconic spy, is quite far from what real spycraft is all about. It is not because he was unaware, but because his goal wasn't to show how intelligence works, but write an entertaining story. After all, what were are reading is fiction and the author isn't required to be true to the point and can take an artistic licence if they assume that a character will be more interesting this way.
Both you and Kaa said it well. I cannot be a judge whether a protagonist is autistic but I can comment how the description "feels" for me. Can my feelings be wrong - definitely.
While there can be said a lot of good things about the idea of 'own voices' I disagree that in all cases they would be above the alternative by the very definition. Just one example: Ian Flemming worked with Britain's Naval Intelligence Division as a naval intelligence officer during the WW2. Later as a journalist he also dealt with intelligence. However, his James Bond, maybe the iconic spy, is quite far from what real spycraft is all about. It is not because he was unaware, but because his goal wasn't to show how intelligence works, but write an entertaining story. After all, what were are reading is fiction and the author isn't required to be true to the point and can take an artistic licence if they assume that a character will be more interesting this way.
Allison Hurd
FWIW, this character reads very similarly to...gosh, at least 4 of the autistic people I know :) It is a spectrum disorder, meaning that not everyone is at the most severe end of the spectrum. I think you'd be surprised by how many you people you pass every day and converse with are neuro-atypical but don't really come across "differently" than you or me.
Oleksandr Zholud
Allison wrote: "I think you'd be surprised by how many you people you pass every day and converse with are neuro-atypical but don't really come across "differently" than you or me."
I know three families with autistic children, I just don't know them well enough, and communicated with parents, not kids. As for a broader spectrum of neuro-atypical conditions, I have them both as family and friends and I hope that my words don't sound as a disrespect to other people. If it did, it wasn't intentional and I apologize
I know three families with autistic children, I just don't know them well enough, and communicated with parents, not kids. As for a broader spectrum of neuro-atypical conditions, I have them both as family and friends and I hope that my words don't sound as a disrespect to other people. If it did, it wasn't intentional and I apologize
Allison Hurd
It's an important discussion...there is some frustration for people who have "invisible illnesses" because so few people believe that they are indeed sick or need accommodations etc. unless they're experiencing crisis or severely and obviously impaired in some way.
I'm definitely not aiming this at any one person though, for the record. It's one of those things where there's bleed between art and life that can be delicate.
I'm definitely not aiming this at any one person though, for the record. It's one of those things where there's bleed between art and life that can be delicate.
Oleksandr Zholud
Allison wrote: "It's an important discussion...there is some frustration for people who have "invisible illnesses" because so few people believe that they are indeed sick or need accommodations "
True. Also some people prefer to hide their psychological problems due to possible stigmatization.
True. Also some people prefer to hide their psychological problems due to possible stigmatization.
Allison Hurd
Oleksandr wrote: "Allison wrote: "It's an important discussion...there is some frustration for people who have "invisible illnesses" because so few people believe that they are indeed sick or need accommodations "
..."
Also a great point.
..."
Also a great point.
Kristjan
Allison wrote: "It's an important discussion..."
Absolutely ... and I hope it is not something that folks shy away from, since I can understand several of the view points expressed thus far. Perhap it will become a vehicle to better understand the 'neuro-atypical' (not sure I like this term any better though).
While Autism is a spectrum disorder, it is also a distinct label which was [IMHO] unfortunately used by the Author as a shortcut for her characterization of the main protagonist. As noted by some readers already, this label is colored by personal experience and can prove to be a distraction when the term and experience don't match up. While I saw several characteristics that I am familiar with, I would have preferred to have avoided this label and its associated baggage in favor of letting the behavior and character descriptions speak for themselves. YMMV
Absolutely ... and I hope it is not something that folks shy away from, since I can understand several of the view points expressed thus far. Perhap it will become a vehicle to better understand the 'neuro-atypical' (not sure I like this term any better though).
While Autism is a spectrum disorder, it is also a distinct label which was [IMHO] unfortunately used by the Author as a shortcut for her characterization of the main protagonist. As noted by some readers already, this label is colored by personal experience and can prove to be a distraction when the term and experience don't match up. While I saw several characteristics that I am familiar with, I would have preferred to have avoided this label and its associated baggage in favor of letting the behavior and character descriptions speak for themselves. YMMV
Allison Hurd
It's always hard when an uncommon trait is brought up in a book in the early going. There's a sort of fight between reader bias/expectation and author's point of view, another fight between including it as realistic without making it a story that exploits the hardships of others or falling into harmful tropes...
I'll discuss my thoughts more in the full discussion thread, but I am glad you are all contemplating this and willing to see the other side.
I'll discuss my thoughts more in the full discussion thread, but I am glad you are all contemplating this and willing to see the other side.
Allison Hurd
(While I agree, reminding this is the no spoilers thread!)
Allison Hurd
Thanks for lookin' out :)
Lena Fickle
I'm only 12 percent in, but I'm living how much I'm able to relate to Yasira! I've read sorry stories with autistic protagonists before, but this is the first novel I've read with an autistic protagonist! It feels so nice to have autistic representation in a novel!
Yasira's narration feels accurate to how I think. I'm always thinking about how to relate to neurotypicals and about sensory needs, social differences, ableism, insecurities, etc. I feel this is a great representation on that regard.
Yasira's narration feels accurate to how I think. I'm always thinking about how to relate to neurotypicals and about sensory needs, social differences, ableism, insecurities, etc. I feel this is a great representation on that regard.
Oleksandr Zholud
Lena wrote: "I'm only 12 percent in, but I'm living how much I'm able to relate to Yasira!"
It is great to hear that!
It is great to hear that!
Gabi
Lena wrote: "I'm only 12 percent in, but I'm living how much I'm able to relate to Yasira! I've read sorry stories with autistic protagonists before, but this is the first novel I've read with an autistic prota..."
I felt the same and it is great to hear it confirmed by somebody who knows a thing or two about it.
I felt the same and it is great to hear it confirmed by somebody who knows a thing or two about it.
Sarah
So.
Of all the group books this year, this one is most directly, firmly in my lane.
Which is why I’m baffled that I’m not enjoying this even remotely right now.
I feel like the dialogue seems very forced and it’s making me crazy. And the heavy focus on in-world religion is really off putting to me. I’m only 6% in so admittedly, not a good enough sample to judge the book on, but if I was browsing and read the sample it would have been an immediate “Nope” for me.
Of all the group books this year, this one is most directly, firmly in my lane.
Which is why I’m baffled that I’m not enjoying this even remotely right now.
I feel like the dialogue seems very forced and it’s making me crazy. And the heavy focus on in-world religion is really off putting to me. I’m only 6% in so admittedly, not a good enough sample to judge the book on, but if I was browsing and read the sample it would have been an immediate “Nope” for me.
Michael
Kristjan wrote: "So I need a little help here ... I have re-read Dan's comment several times after finishing the book and I am not clear on what the spoilers might have been.
As a spoiler-phobe myself, I can say I never read the cover blurbs. Some of them give half the story away!
(I didn't even want to know about (view spoiler), which is why I skipped even this first impressions thread until I was well into the book!)
As a spoiler-phobe myself, I can say I never read the cover blurbs. Some of them give half the story away!
(I didn't even want to know about (view spoiler), which is why I skipped even this first impressions thread until I was well into the book!)
Michael
Kristjan wrote: "Perhaps it will become a vehicle to better understand the 'neuro-atypical' (not sure I like this term any better though)"
I noticed once in the book Ms Hoffman used the term "nonneurotypical", not sure if that is the preferred language but i thought it had a better ring to it....
I noticed once in the book Ms Hoffman used the term "nonneurotypical", not sure if that is the preferred language but i thought it had a better ring to it....
Kristjan
Michael wrote: "Kristjan wrote: "Perhaps it will become a vehicle to better understand the 'neuro-atypical' (not sure I like this term any better though)"
I noticed once in the book Ms Hoffman used the term "nonneurotypical"
My daughter, who keeps up with these types of things, said that while the vocab is still developing, the preferred term in the US appears to be "neurodiverse" (neuro-atypical apparently being an early term still favored in some communities).
All About Recognizing a Neurotypical
I noticed once in the book Ms Hoffman used the term "nonneurotypical"
My daughter, who keeps up with these types of things, said that while the vocab is still developing, the preferred term in the US appears to be "neurodiverse" (neuro-atypical apparently being an early term still favored in some communities).
All About Recognizing a Neurotypical
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