Ultimate Popsugar Reading Challenge discussion
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October Group Read Discussion: A Graveyard Book
I'm finished this book. I had so many October ghost stories I started a little early. This was my first time reading a Neil Gaiman book. I enjoyed the descriptions of the graveyard and people. It was a 4 star for me.
Happy Reading!
I'm glad you enjoyed it, Linda! I had a mishap with the library on this. I saw it was available in Hoopla when I signed up for this months ago (which would mean no wait on getting it later). When I tried to access it a week ago I found it was no longer available on Hoopla (I didn't know they could take that away!). So while I planned to have at least started it by today, I'm number one in a hold line for a copy now.
Linda already answered my first question. Has everyone else read Neil Gaiman books before? How did it set your expectations for this one?
I have read "American Gods" and "The Ocean at the End of the Lane" which I gave four and three stars respectively. Based on that I'm expecting this to be something I'll enjoy, but it might not be "amazing." ;) We'll see.
Happy reading everyone!
Mod
I listened to the audiobook, which was a full cast audiobook, and a lot of fun.
What I didn’t realize, and kind of wish I had known, is that this is really a set of connected short stories rather than one full length novel. Once I understood that, it explained a lot about the structure that had been confusing me.
Nadine wrote: "I started reading Neil Gaiman back in the 80s with single issue Sandman comics, and I’ve been a fan ever since. I read The Graveyard book a few years ago. Looks like, aside from comics, I had read ..."Oh, that's good to know - thanks for clarifying that it's short stories!
Goodreads says I've finished Neverwhere and Stardust, pretty sure Coraline should be in there too.I've enjoyed all of his work before, but it did take me over a year to get through Neverwhere. My book is on it's way to my branch of the library. Hopefully I can pick it up tonight!
Soooo. I started this today, fully intending to space it out a bit over the week since I have some four other books in the works already. But again, Gaiman is screwing with my brain. As he is wont to do.After chapter 1 I could not resist to keep reading, hoping to find (some) answers to the questions raised there.
(view spoiler)
I had to forcibly stop myself at page 174/chapter 6 to get some stuff done at the flat, like feeding myself and the cats and such, but I guess I will finish this tomorrow at the latest...
My first Gaiman read was Neverwhere and ever since I am a fan. American Gods is one of my rare 5-star favourites.
Edit:
It is 3 am here and I just finished it. Technically "tomorrow". Ha!
I read it in August so it's pretty fresh in my memory.I have read other of Neil Gaiman's books before and they were pretty hit or miss for me.
While I didn't care for Good Omens: The Nice and Accurate Prophecies of Agnes Nutter, Witch or American Gods, I really loved Coraline and Norse Mythology
So I can say that I went into The Graveyard Book without expectation.
It was a 4-stars read for me. I would have love to know a bit more about the reasons behind the story.
Didn't know either about the short stories.
Mod
Somewhere I read an essay by him (either an afterword in my copy, or in one of his other books of essays) that said he wanted to write a story for his kid. What a gruesome start for a child's story!! (Though, this book is shelved in the children's room at my library - I tried to read it out loud to my daughters and my older daughter told me to stop, it was too gruesome.) That may also be where I read that he structured it as short stories, because I'm pretty sure I didn't just decide that on my own!
I listened to it on audio a few years ago, but I don't remember it as a cast production, so maybe I had a different version. This was my first Gaiman, then I read Ocean, which I liked better. I liked this one, but it did feel juvenile to me. Though the beginning is pretty rough for kids.
Britta wrote: "Soooo. I started this today, fully intending to space it out a bit over the week since I have some four other books in the works already. But again, Gaiman is screwing with my brain. As he is wont ..."Wow, I'm glad it was so engaging for you!
I ended up getting in on cd from the library so my listening will be determined by my driving, which isn't ideal. :/
Nadine wrote: "Fannie wrote: "I would have love to know a bit more about the reasons behind the story. ..."Somewhere I read an essay by him (either an afterword in my copy, or in one of his other books of essa..."
Ha, yea maybe his kid is especially tough when it comes to violent content in books?
I read American Gods earlier this year to fulfill another prompt. I've also read Coraline, and I've enjoyed both very much. I'm listening to the audiobook with Gaiman reading. My two older boys (10 and 8) are listening along with me, and so far we're all enjoying it.
Lauren wrote: "I'm glad you enjoyed it, Linda! I had a mishap with the library on this. I saw it was available in Hoopla when I signed up for this months ago (which would mean no wait on getting it later). When..."
I had 2 copies on Hoopla available, that's actually how i read and finished it today.
Gaiman is one of my very favorite authors. I've been lucky enough to go to a few panels/readings with him and he seems to be a genuinely great guy as well as a fantastic writer. I really loved this one, and I got teary at the end. It is definitely meant for a younger audience than American Gods, for instance, but it's still delightfully creepy and I love Bod. All of his books have different vibes and despite the fact that I adore him, I haven't read all of his works yet.
Sometimes people say that food is "too rich" for them. I, frankly, don't understand that and can eat a double chocolate cheesecake down to licking the plate. BUT I do find that some books are almost too rich and that's what Gaiman is like for me. I get sucked in and then have book hangovers for days or even weeks after. So I space them out. :)
Ugh! I ordered this from the library and I guess I didn't pay attention because I got the graphic novel adaptation! I'll read that but order the regular book and then compare.
Johanna wrote: "Ugh! I ordered this from the library and I guess I didn't pay attention because I got the graphic novel adaptation! I'll read that but order the regular book and then compare."I did that on the Handmaid's Tale books. I also read both because I wanted to see the difference in the story.
Mod
John wrote: "Lauren wrote: "I'm glad you enjoyed it, Linda! I had a mishap with the library on this. I saw it was available in Hoopla when I signed up for this months ago (which would mean no wait on getting ..."
I guess my library took their Hoopla copy and gave it to your library. ;)
The CD audio version is ok, but not ideal. And it seems to be the single narrator version rather than the full cast. Oh well.
Juliebean wrote: "Gaiman is one of my very favorite authors. I've been lucky enough to go to a few panels/readings with him and he seems to be a genuinely great guy as well as a fantastic writer. I really loved this..."I'm glad you've enjoyed his reading events! And thanks for the comparison with rich food. :)
I'm about a third of the way through the book (on audio). So far I'm enjoying the descriptive scenes, but I'm having trouble identifying plots/action in the stories... anyone else? I like the characters we've come across so far though! Who are everyone's favorite characters, outside of Bod?
I'm around two-thirds through, and enjoying it, although I'm glad for Nadine's heads-up that it's more like a short story collection. Makes sense for a kid's bedtime stories - you read a story every night.Lauren wrote: "Has everyone else read Neil Gaiman books before? How did it set your expectations for this one?"
I've read Sandman (amazing), American Gods (very good), and Neverwhere (pretty good). So I had high expectations for this one! And so far it's working out.
One thing I don't care for about Gaiman is that he seems to have a penchant for bland/milquetoast protagonists (Shadow is literally the most boring dude ever, and Richard Mayhew is such a spineless loser). But I figured this book would be different, since it stars a kid. In fact, Bod is great; he's plucky and impulsive and just has way more narrative agency than Shadow/Richard have in their respective books. He really is the star of the book, not just a passenger along for the ride.
Lauren wrote: "I like the characters we've come across so far though! Who are everyone's favorite characters, outside of Bod?"
Silas for sure! He and Bod are the only two that stand out to me, but I like them both a lot.
Drakeryn wrote: "I'm around two-thirds through, and enjoying it, although I'm glad for Nadine's heads-up that it's more like a short story collection. Makes sense for a kid's bedtime stories - you read a story ever..."I don't remember much about the character Shadow, so he may have indeed been a pretty bland character.
I've also liked Scarlett and the witch (Liza Hempstock) so far.
And right after I commented about a lack of plot/action the pawn shop scene happened, so things are picking up. :)
Mod
Back to THIS book!! It’s been a few years for me so I don’t remember details. I think my favorite character was Mrs Owens! She’s not in it much. She’s so no nonsense, I liked that.
And of course I liked Silas, he’s brooding and mysterious and just a tiny bit intimidating.
When we first meet the witch Liza, I didnt like her much, she was too coy, and seemed like a jerk, but her character grew on me as we got to know more about her.
I liked the Lady on the Grey because she is mysterious, powerful, and benevolent, but we really don’t get to know her well. I wanted to know more about her.
So I really don't remember this book... whoops! I just looked up the entry on wikipedia and some of it came back to me. But I would say that the character that has stuck with me the most is actually Jack. He's perfectly creepy and evil, but I really love the word play of Jacks of All Trades and Jack Frost. I just thought that was totally clever.
Just finished the first chapter/story. Will probably read more than I should tonight.So far I'm super reminded of Lincoln in the Bardo.
Katie wrote: "Just finished the first chapter/story. Will probably read more than I should tonight.So far I'm super reminded of Lincoln in the Bardo."
Now that my digital audiobook came in I have the full cast version, and it is a bit like Lincoln in the Bardo. That one was too much for me though, I couldn't follow it. Luckily this one is easier for me, as far as keeping track of the characters and what's going on.
And now that I'm toward the end the action has certainly kicked in. :)
I found two discussion questions, if y'all want to answer one/both of these. 1. The graveyard is populated with characters we typically think of as evil. How does Gaiman play with this idea, particularly in the characters of Silas, Miss Lupescu, and Eliza Hempstock? What do these characterizations suggest about human nature?
2. “A graveyard is not normally a democracy, and yet death is the great democracy” (p. 29). How is death the great democracy? How does Gaiman explore the relationship between the dead and the living?
Mod
1. The graveyard is populated with characters we typically think of as evil. How does Gaiman play with this idea, part..."
ohhhhh I forgot about Miss Lupescu!!!! she was great!
I have no idea how to answer those questions. I mean, he plays with the idea by making them ... Not Evil. I'm not sure what else to say? I'm sure you all will have much better comments!!!
and, I guess death is a great democracy because no matter how rich or powerful or poor they were in life, they are all stuck together in the graveyard in death.
Nadine wrote: "I mean, he plays with the idea by making them ... Not Evil. I'm not sure what else to say?"haha this was my thought too
It's basically subversion of expectations, which is a common trend these days. Like, in classic literature, the dragon/beast/monster is assumed to be evil, the adventurers kill it and go home, the end. Modern literature tends to say: But what if the dragon isn't evil? Let's give her a voice, make her a real character, let her tell her story.
So Silas isn't a bogeyman, he's a guy with real choices over his (un)life; he used to be a bad dude, but now he uses his time and energy to be the caretaker of a lost little baby. And then you have a globe-spanning organization of respectable gentlemen who use their time and energy trying to kill said baby.
I feel like this kind of subversion is so common, it's basically the new norm. But whatever, I like it.
I just started it. My second time reading, but it's been years so I only remember vague bits of it. Got through the first chapter and am thus far adoring it.
Drakeryn wrote: "Nadine wrote: "I mean, he plays with the idea by making them ... Not Evil. I'm not sure what else to say?"haha this was my thought too
It's basically subversion of expectations, which is a commo..."
Agreed on these points. I just finished listening to it, and the "but what if the 'evil' characters aren't so evil, and that line is blurry?" theme is very strong at the end. As someone who works in criminal justice advocacy, I appreciate this trend and hope that it continues. ;)
I think you're right about the democracy part, Nadine. Although blending the boundaries of life and death, and making up for bad decisions in the past happens a bit too. So even if you did terrible things when you were alive, maybe you still have a chance to make up for it as a ghost? Kinda depends on whether we believe in ghosts or not... I'm working on writing a short story that includes ghosts, so I'm glad this was the book we selected for October!
Also, I really loved the author's note at the end, about his process of writing the book. Good stuff.
I only just recognized some of the direct Jungle Book parallels, mainly in the characters - Silas is Bagheera, Miss Lupescu is Baloo, the ghouls are the monkeys and the Sleer is Kaa.Might have to reread Jungle Book to see how similar or not the plots are.
Mod
Cendaquenta wrote: "I only just recognized some of the direct Jungle Book parallels, mainly in the characters - Silas is Bagheera, Miss Lupescu is Baloo, the ghouls are the monkeys and the Sleer is Kaa.Might have to ..."
Ha, nice work! He mentions the connection to "The Jungle Book" but I didn't think it through that far. Thanks for sharing. :)
Quickly going through the Wikipedia articles on The Jungle Book, there's even a story in it called "The King's Ankus" which seems, in broad strokes, practically identical to the brooch story - a cursed piece of jewellery which drives people mad with greed and which Mowgli/Bod eventually returns to the ancient gravesite it came from.
Cendaquenta wrote: "Quickly going through the Wikipedia articles on The Jungle Book, there's even a story in it called "The King's Ankus" which seems, in broad strokes, practically identical to the brooch story - a cu..."Wow, he really pulled a lot from that book then. Interesting!
Came across a subtle nod in the text to the aforementioned parallels:"I danced with the lady, Silas!" exclaimed Bod. His guardian looked almost heartbroken then, and Bod found himself scared, like a child who has woken a sleeping panther.
Mod
"I danced with the lady, Silas!" exclaimed Bod. His guardian looked almost heartbroken then, and Bod found himself scared, ..."
Nice :-)
I had to wait on the library for this one, so I'm starting a bit late.Question: Has everyone else read Neil Gaiman books before? How did it set your expectations for this one?
I've only read Good Omens and that was just this year. But because it was Neil Gaiman and Terry Prachett, I wanted to read some of their solo work before I made up my mind about them as authors. I really enjoyed Good Omens, so I'm hoping that this is as good.
Here's another discussion question I found for the group: "There is a rich tradition of orphans in children’s literature as well as a tradition of child-of-destiny themes in fantasy literature. Discuss how Bod fits squarely into both categories."
And I might add - how does Bod differ from other traditional orphan characters in books? I feel like there's less of an attempt to get the reader to feel sorry for Bod's situation here, compared to other books that include orphan protagonists...
Now that I've finished the book, I'll answer the rest of the questions.Who are everyone's favorite characters, outside of Bod?"
Miss Lupescu kinda stood out for me. She loves lists, and while kinda stiff has a soft heart after all - I love characters like that.
The graveyard is populated with characters we typically think of as evil. How does Gaiman play with this idea, particularly in the characters of Silas, Miss Lupescu, and Eliza Hempstock? What do these characterizations suggest about human nature?
I think the characters are a comment on human nature to declare anything different to be evil - and to write off people as just one thing - Silas was evil, but he became good, but most people don't want to admit that that is possible - Would you be comfortable hiring an ex-con? Eliza is also interesting, because unlike other stories where the witch is treated as a misunderstood victim, she got revenge.
"There is a rich tradition of orphans in children’s literature as well as a tradition of child-of-destiny themes in fantasy literature. Discuss how Bod fits squarely into both categories."
Well Bod is an orphan - he doesn't get to live the life he was 'supposed' to live, and instead grows up with an outsiders perspective on life - which always makes for good stories. And as far as the 'child-of-destiny" theme - he ends up being retelling of the old Greek stories where attempts to avoid a prophecy end up causing it to happen.
I'm just beginning the book today. The only Gaiman book I've read is Stardust, and that was so long ago that I remember little about it. I liked it but didn't love it.
Neil Gaiman is a real hit-or-miss author for me. I love some of his books, and really have to struggle to stay interested in others. I started this one in 2017, and lost interest 100 pages in and it's been languishing on my Currently Reading list ever since. I decided to give it another shot, and it was pretty good, although I have trouble with the murdery beginning in what is marketed as a childrens' (not YA) book. This is one of those books I wish I had read as a young teen, when I would have really appreciated it. 3.5⭐
Suki wrote: "Neil Gaiman is a real hit-or-miss author for me. I love some of his books, and really have to struggle to stay interested in others. I started this one in 2017, and lost interest 100 pages in and i..."I'm glad you gave it another shot! I found the first half to be pretty slow (after the opening scene) but I think it definitely picks up in the second half.
Here's another question for the group: "Boundaries—between the living and the dead, between the graveyard and the world—are an important part of the novel. How does Bod test these boundaries? What are the consequences of Bod’s actions?"
The scenes with Silas and the car and Scarlett in the graveyard toward the end stand out for me with this question...
Mod
"Boundaries—between the living and the dead, between the graveyard and the world—are an important part of the novel. How does Bod test these boundaries? Wha..."
It's been a while since I've read it, but my memory says that Bod is CONSTANTLY testing boundaries. The entire adventure with the demons (? were they demons? trolls? something ...) was because he tested a boundary. His friendship with the girl. His friendship with the witch. He is constantly pushing the boundaries, trying to escape, trying to get out. Which is, of course, totally normal for any kid!
Nadine wrote: "Lauren wrote: "Here's another question for the group: "Boundaries—between the living and the dead, between the graveyard and the world—are an important part of the novel. How does Bod test these ..."
Very true!
The graveyard is populated with characters we typically think of as evil. How does Gaiman play with this idea, particularly in the characters of Silas, Miss Lupescu, and Eliza Hempstock? What do these characterizations suggest about human nature?What I really liked was the idea of the after life being an opportunity for a second chance. My kids and I are listening to the audiobook, and we normally listen in the car so I don't always pay great attention when zipping down the freeway. I missed the part were Silas was a crook when he was alive until I read it in a comment. So he gets the chance to be a "good" person by being Bod's guardian. The Owens did not have children when they were alive, but raising Bod in the graveyard gives them the opportunity to raise a child. Liza didn't seem to have friends while living and died with a curse in her mouth. With Bod, she has the chance to develop a friendship and to be a helper.
In many major religions, there is an emphasis on having good behavior in THIS life. The person you are here effects your afterlife.
But in "The Graveyard" the afterlife is a place for second chances and redemption. I really like that idea. Even though the story is grim, I think it is also very hopeful.
Lauren wrote: "The scenes with [...] Scarlett in the graveyard toward the end stand out for me with this question..."oh man that scene made me SO MAD (not directly related to your question but I gotta rant for a sec)
(view spoiler)
Lauren wrote: "And I might add - how does Bod differ from other traditional orphan characters in books? I feel like there's less of an attempt to get the reader to feel sorry for Bod's situation here, compared to other books that include orphan protagonists..."
You think so? I feel like, most of the time I read stuff with orphaned protagonists, it's just a plot device to get the parents out of the way so that the kid can be on his own and unsupervised. Especially in visual novels: half of the protags are orphans, and the other half have parents constantly away on business so they have the house to themselves.
But here, even though Bod's an orphan, his adoptive family is such a strong presence in his life that he doesn't feel like an orphan. Even though I didn't get attached to most of the villagers as individuals, I really liked how they all came together to raise Bod and look out for him.
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