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The Nonesuch
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The Nonesuch Oct 2019 Group Read Chapters 11-20
I am enjoying it very much. On some reads Tiffany annoys me too much but not really this time. I like the depiction of all the competition and microaggressions among the neighbors; the more mature hero and heroine; and I love the Chartleys, rather like the Tallants in Arabella though the roles of father and mother are more or less reversed here.
I'm appreciating Ancilla's character more this time.
that's a good point @Abigail, about the Chartleys vs The Tallants. For sure Arabella's Mother was more practical and open-minded or even modern. And here (not sure where in the books this happens so I'll spoiler it) (view spoiler)
Me too, Carol! Ancilla has a lot of quiet dignity and never lets anyone see that her current life is not what she would have chosen. And she's very clever at managing Tiffany.
Oh, those snide old cats (Mrs Mickleby and her cronies) are making life absolutely miserable for Ancilla. And she can't tell Waldo why she's so blue-deviled--she is too, too embarrassed and suffering from a deep sense of humiliation! I wanted to give Ancilla a hug and then take a swipe at Mrs. M.Great bit of writing there by GH.
I feel like Heyer did a good job at presenting us with an entire community even though many of the characters are more rough sketches than fully fleshed out.The Chartleys are fully realized and maybe The Squire, but the rest are kind of a blurr to me. But I totally believe this community is real as it makes up a pleasing whole.
and yes, the women are so petty and spiteful the way they treat Ancilla!
Yes, I find some of the minor characters a bit blurred! Patience is reminding me of her namesake in False Colours....very 'good'! In a way, I can see why Tiffany is both irritated and jealous of her....Patience is Melanie to Tiffany's Scarlett! (in my GWTW analogy).The whole scenario of the 'small neighbourhood' is reminiscent to me of Austen's similar creation of Meryton in P and P and (name of town which I've forgotten, High-something!) in Emma.
(I'm assuming GH had some connection to Yorkshire - it seems to feature in quite a few of her novels, eg Charity Girl/Harrogate, but I don't think any of them have actually been set there, have they? It's usually just a place people have either come from or have gone to!)
Venetia is set in Yorkshire and I think there are more but they aren't coming to mind right now.
Oh yes, so it is! I seem to remember the lengthy description of Harrogate in Charity Girl! And didn't Judith Taverner come from Yorkshire? (Can I say those ??)
Jackie wrote: "that's a good point @Abigail, about the Chartleys vs The Tallants. For sure Arabella's Mother was more practical and open-minded or even modern. And here (not sure where in the books this happens s..."Oh, I just read (heard!) that part, it was sweet and charming - and yes, reminded me of Arabella’s family, also! (I’m terrible at remembering all the names, just remember plot points...)
Abigail wrote: "Me too, Carol! Ancilla has a lot of quiet dignity and never lets anyone see that her current life is not what she would have chosen. And she's very clever at managing Tiffany."Exactly- she’d be a management consultant or writing self-help books today! “Handling the Narcissist Nutbag in your Life with a Smile” or something!
Barb in Maryland wrote: "Oh, those snide old cats (Mrs Mickleby and her cronies) are making life absolutely miserable for Ancilla. And she can't tell Waldo why she's so blue-deviled--she is too, too embarrassed and sufferi..."Oh, ok, now I’m remembering a bit more about this part - only starting chapter 10, so too soon for a happy ending, must be some tension or misunderstanding...I may fast-forward through it if sweet Ancilla is too sad, though! I’m a wimp, I don’t like seeing other’s discomfort or pain, even in a book!
Beth-In-UK wrote: "Yes, I find some of the minor characters a bit blurred! Patience is reminding me of her namesake in False Colours....very 'good'! In a way, I can see why Tiffany is both irritated and jealous of he..."Perfect! GWTW and Scarlett O. has occurred to me every time I’ve read this book.
Just read the part where poor Charlotte Underhill has a really bad toothache--it sure did make me very, very thankful for modern dentistry's nerve blockers. Novocaine (aka procaine) has been a very good friend over the years.
But I think Scarlett has some redeeming features, not totally, but her strength in adversity is what keeps everyone together. Not sure Tiffany would do anything in adversity except through a monumental hissy fit!!!!!
Ancilla is definitely an expert in kidology! But I suspect her influence over Tiffany would wane as the latter grew older. At the moment she is still 'impressed' that Ancilla is 'a real lady' etc, and knows more of the ways of the world than she does. Once Tiffany is let loose in London high society, I suspect she would start to despise Ancilla totally.
Abigail wrote: "Me too, Carol! Ancilla has a lot of quiet dignity and never lets anyone see that her current life is not what she would have chosen. And she's very clever at managing Tiffany."Jackie wrote: "that's a good point @Abigail, about the Chartleys vs The Tallants. For sure Arabella's Mother was more practical and open-minded or even modern. And here (not sure where in the books this happens s..."
Yes, exactly... quiet dignity and strong self-respect.
Chapter 14: Ancilla’s treatment of Tiffany is absolutely brilliant here.Chapter 15: (view spoiler)
I looked up “crim. cons.”, which appears at the end of this chapter. It means “criminal conversions,” which was an old legal cause of action for adultery, kind of like alienation of affections.
I thought it meant criminal conversation
Yes, I thought it was 'conversation'....a bit 'coy', but I suppose less shocking to say 'out loud' in polite society.I'm not sure GH treats them with the full gravity when she has characters saying they are gossiping about the latest crim cons, as the consequences of adultery (for women) were utterly draconian! They could be divorced by their husbands, totally rejected by society, forced to become outcasts and lose ALL access to their children. It was very, very dangerous for a woman to be divorced (at all), let alone for adultery.
That said, in high society I think the real crime was not the committing of the adultery (once the 'heir and spare' had been produced with no doubt about their paternity re inheritance!), but if it became publically known (rather than just 'accepted but not mentioned officially, etc).
That is really the core of the plot in (view spoiler) isn't it?
On the theme of crim cons, I believe in large Edwardian house parties it was not uncommon to have what was euphemistically called a 'mixing bell' run at about 6 am or so .... it was actually an 'unmixing bell'! It was a sign for all the wanderers to return to their OWN bedrooms, before the servants were up and about to witness any wrong folk in the wrong bedrooms!
good heavens, a mixing bell? never heard of that, how interesting it was understood people would be sleeping around like that!
It is conversation--autofill did me wrong. :)
Tadiana, I'm sure talking didn't much come into it, even if it was called 'conversation'!!! :) :)
Jackie, I think the sleeping around had to be done under very careful and precise circumstances, and between particular folk only! I think you had to be married, moving in high society, and definitely to have done one's marital duty and produced a legitaimate heir (and spare), whose paternity could not be doubted. (That said, I think not all peers were the sons of the men they inherited from!!!!!!!)The key thing was NOT to cause a scandal, that was the only real crime. I think the adulterous wives also had to be very circumspect and not flaunt their (equally married usually) lovers, as if their husbands kicked up the wives would suffer most.
I don't think any husband cared to be openly cuckolded, and his ego had to be protected, lest he become a laughing stock.
As ever, it was riskier for the women than the men.
And I don't think it was general necessarily in high society....just in the 'fast' set, mostly those who socialised with the (highly dissolute!) Prince of Wales, Bertie (Edward VII).
And I think it went without saying that any adulterous wives had to ensure their lovers were 'posh'.....at the very least, army officers (I think that is who Churchill's mother, Lady Randolph....Jenny Jerome....had an affair with when she was widowed quite young.)(So, I guess, if there were any peers whose heirs were not genetically theirs, at least they were probably the sons of other peers!!!)( There was huge intermarriage of course between the aristocracy, who all tended to marry each other....unless they married rich American heiresses!)
Barb in Maryland wrote: "Oh, those snide old cats (Mrs Mickleby and her cronies) are making life absolutely miserable for Ancilla. And she can't tell Waldo why she's so blue-deviled--she is too, too embarrassed and sufferi..."I find Ancilla's reaction to their cattiness interesting. She's not any kind of victim, and she's intelligent and self-confident, but they still manage to make her doubt what she thinks she knows. And when Mrs. Chartley, a sensible woman with a real regard for Ancilla, gets into the act, then Ancilla really becomes unsure of herself. Well, that's what love will do to you!
Sometimes I think that scandalous affairs are kind of like successful murders. We only hear about the ones who get found out, so does that mean that there are more incidents or less?
I could have shaken Mrs. Chartley for her
Barb in Maryland wrote: "I could have shaken Mrs. Chartley for her soul-killing well meaning advice. Grrrr..."She was a really kind woman, though, and it had to be difficult for her to warn Ancilla. She felt that she needed to give motherly advice because Ancilla's own mother was not near, and she was worried that Ancilla might be headed for a bad broken-heart (not like the rest of the tabbies who were just plain cranky and jealous!). Of course, that's why Ancilla actually listened to her, too...
Now that I think of it, Mrs. Chartley should have either asked Waldo his intentions or made her husband ask him. Well, I would have, anyway!
Abigail wrote: "I am enjoying it very much. On some reads Tiffany annoys me too much but not really this time. I like the depiction of all the competition and microaggressions among the neighbors; the more mature ..."I just see Tiffany as comic relief. I cant take her seriously.
She's something! I'm not sure what, but definitely something!
Karlyne, I agree - in the absence of any father or brother on the scene to 'protect' Ancilla, someone like the Rector should, indeed, have taken it upon themselves to challenge Waldo. He was, after all, a stranger to the community, and his only reputation was as a London 'toff' etc, and although he appeared to be a very gentlemanly sort, once his attentions to Ancilla because impossible to ignore (ie, after the ball), then yes, the 'leaders' of the community, especially the 'moral leaders', ie, the rector and his wife, should indeed step in to ensure she was not being 'led astray' etc.
Karlyne wrote: [Of Tiffany] "She's something! I'm not sure what, but definitely something!"My mother would probably have called her "a piece of work" -- a phrase which for her had a very flexible application to people she happened to be talking about, to express reactions ranging from admiration to exasperation.
Margaret - yes, excellent summing up by your mother! Another lovely old fashioned phrase is the priceless 'no better than she should be'.....it was usually applied to 'fast' young women, and definitely implied she was sailing 'close to the wind' when it came to respectable (or rather unrespectable!) behaviour. The grammatical syntax is a bit convoluted, but it speaks volumes! (Again, usually accompanied by a deliberate sniff and a raising of the eyebrows!)
I was thinking that one of the things that makes Ancilla and Waldo's romance unusual for the times, and even for GH, is that because Ancilla was a governess she seems to have had a lot more freedom to associate with unmarried gentlemen than would have been the case had she, say, been living with her aunt in London and still doing the Season etc. Even at 26 in London society she'd still have had to have been chaperoned everywhere, and any 'conversations' (criminal or not!!!!) with 'men' in general who were not her family would have been very circumscribed. However, as a governess, she was considered 'off the market' so to speak, and, indeed, she is herself cast in the role of chaperone to Tiffany and the other 'girls' (very young women), and so she is allowed to, say, gallivant around the countryside on the Knaresborough expedition with men, in a way I doubt would have been allowed if she were still a (seasoned) debutante of marriageable age.
If we are going to be reading Lady of Quality at any point it would be interesting to compare (view spoiler) with the freedom that Ancilla has now she is 'only the governness'.
I never thought of it before, but it's true: Ancilla has a lot more freedom than many a Heyer Heroine.
Beth-In-UK wrote: "I was thinking that one of the things that makes Ancilla and Waldo's romance unusual for the times, and even for GH, is that because Ancilla was a governess she seems to have had a lot more freedom..."Very interesting point!
I wasn't planning to read LoQ, but it might be worth a revisit in order to consider the comparison between Ancilla and Annis.
Ancilla was definitely a "very superior governess"; she not only was allowed to mingle in social gatherings, but she was expected to. Part of this, of course, was because she had a respectable family to back her up (the General!), and part of it was because she did command a very decent wage and people tend to treat those they pay well better. I think a lot of it was also Ancilla's personality; she simply commanded respect no matter where she was.
Yes, and I think added to those reasons was that Mrs Underhill her employer was very conscious that she herself was 'nouveau', and so having a governess as well bred as Ancilla both gave her cachet amongst 'the tabbies', but also Ancilla was skilful at 'guiding' Mrs U as to the ways and manners of the class Ancilla came from (ie, 'the gentry class'). I would think having Ancilla by her side would have reassured Mrs U that she herself would not make any social solecisms as Ancilla would ensure they didn't occur. In a way, Ancilla was Mrs U's 'teacher' as much as she was Tiffany and Charlotte (not that either of those two were keen on academic learning!)
Reading the section where Mrs Chartley is worried that Julian might be 'fickle' and whether to believe his courtship of Patience or not, I find I am siding with her, as after all, Julian is something of an unknown quantity (compared with the young men of the neighbourhood), and has been visibly besotted with Tiffany to boot. I too, as Patience's mum, would be cautious.In any case, I would want a much, much longer 'wooing' period between them before any irreversible decision were taken. Months, not weeks, in my book!
Beth-In-UK wrote: "Reading the section where Mrs Chartley is worried that Julian might be 'fickle' and whether to believe his courtship of Patience or not, I find I am siding with her, as after all, Julian is somethi..."I agree completely about a longer courtship in real life but the books never go on that long (and it would get a bit dull).
Not only dull, but it would allow time for scheming misses to try to interfere between the couple! (view spoiler) Now, I know that's controversial, but it's the only long engagement I could think of in Heyer.
This section opens with a bang. Oh Tiffany! She acts like a spoiled toddler when she doesn't get her own way. Her behavior is horrid and shocking. She needs a good smack. In a way, the scene with Mrs. Chartley reminded me a bit of Pride and Prejudice when Aunt Gardiner assumes Lizzy knows more about Darcy's thoughts and actions than she really does. Yet, she doesn't interfere. The difference is that Darcy had already confided a lot to Lizzy and opened up to her even if the first things he said were rude, he IS always honest with her. Waldo has gotten Ancilla to open up to him but he hasn't with her yet.
(view spoiler)
Poor Ancilla ends up overthinking her relationship with Waldo. I can relate to the head vs. heart debate and overthinking everything.
I'm always struck by the fact that Heyer heroines almost never have a gal pal or close sister to confide in and ask advice. In Sense & Sensibility Elinor CAN'T confide in Marianne because she promised not to and because Marianne is too much a drama queen wrapped up in her own romantic drama but at the end she does confide in her sister when she can't hold it in anymore. In Pride & Prejudice Lizzy confides everything she can to Jane and Lizzy always knows what Jane is feeling because they're so close. I feel bad for Ancilla that she doesn't have anyone to confide in. Her family is far away and her situation doesn't allow her to have gal pals. It's a sad situation.
I went back to sleep after that and I will read again if I can't sleep tomorrow morning or at the latest tomorrow night, a work night so I can't read for long.
QNPoohBear wrote: "This section opens with a bang. Oh Tiffany! She acts like a spoiled toddler when she doesn't get her own way. Her behavior is horrid and shocking. She needs a good smack. In a way, the scene with..."
Ancilla doesn't have anybody to talk things over with, so she just overthinks and talks to herself! I'm with you, QnPoohBear; even now that I'm old and wise (ha!), I do the same thing.
Uh-oh... the misunderstanding! Julian!!! Open mouth, insert foot!
I agree Ancilla has no chum to talk things through with, but I'm not sure it would have helped. I don't see her as 'overthinking' so much as making the kind of worldly assumptions that a woman in her situation would be logically expected to make - it IS unlikely that a fasthionable wealthy, much courted male like Sir Waldo would look twice at a humble governess, and it is also likely that such a man might well have bastards (Ok, not a whole clutch of them!)I think she is sensible to be cautious about her own feelings.
I also think Mrs Chartley is spot on with her warnings - and she does it from kindness and concern. All the more credit to her. I'm sure Ancilla's own mum would have been grateful to her!
Mod
But things do seem to go terribly quickly in Heyerworld, even if not in real-life upper-class Regencyworld. When you think that the Season was only from April to June and that a successful debutante would have met and nobbled Lord Right by the end of it ... and then there are the characters who only have a chance at one Season, whose families make sacrifices to get them there and who are counting on just those three months to meet the right man and get engaged to him! Really, to talk of love matches in those circumstances is quite starry-eyed, isn't it? Couples who believed they were in love weren't really in with more of a chance of happiness than the ones whose marriages didn't pretend to be anything other than an arrangement, were they?
If you are re-reading, did you find anything you had overlooked or forgotten about from previous reads? Feeling differently about any of the characters?
Please remember to use spoiler tags or to post spoilers in the spoiler thread.