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Persuasion > Chapters 8-10

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message 1: by [deleted user] (last edited Oct 26, 2014 02:42PM) (new)

A character of decision and firmness.


message 2: by Hana (last edited Nov 04, 2014 12:40PM) (new)

Hana | 78 comments Mod
I just finished Chapter 8. "Anne did not wish for more such looks and speeches. His cold politeness, his ceremonious grace were worse than any thing."

So mortifying, so painful! I'm reading this too quickly because I so need to find out how they break through this terrible barrier.


message 3: by Mary (new)

Mary Catelli | 48 comments Oh, yes.

But you can also go back and re-read and savor the details after the narrative thirst has been quenched.


Tadiana ✩Night Owl☽ | 108 comments Mod
The ending of Chapter 8 just breaks my heart: (view spoiler)It kills me.


Tadiana ✩Night Owl☽ | 108 comments Mod
Hana wrote: "So mortifying, so painful! I'm reading this too quickly because I so need to find out how they break through this terrible barrier."

This is a fairly short book, so don't rush through it too quickly! Lol. My husband would roll his eyes so hard to hear me say that. He was just giving me grief last night about my (occasional. Okay, somewhat frequent) habit of reading the ending of a book while I'm still in the middle.


message 6: by Samanta (new)

Samanta   (almacubana) I do that too sometimes :D


message 7: by Hana (new)

Hana | 78 comments Mod
Oh yes! The ending of Chapter 8 is a heart-breaker. I have an idea how it ends, but I'm not sure, and mostly I'm not sure how they get there. Right now it looks pretty hopeless.

I read too quickly and I confess to skimming, but I rarely skip to the end unless I'm seriously bored with the story. One of the dangers with classics is that all the commentaries assume you already know.

I learned that the hard way with North and South and a dreadful spoilery 'academic' essay. And then another 'academic' did the same with Georges. My copy of Persuasion has this long, long essay at the beginning. No way am I going near that thing!!!


Tadiana ✩Night Owl☽ | 108 comments Mod
I tend to skip to the end of a book when I'm either (a) getting bored, or (b) need to go to bed and can't stand to do it without finding out what happens in the story. :D


Tadiana ✩Night Owl☽ | 108 comments Mod
Okay, I've knocked off The Stormy Petrel and written my review, so now I'm ready to dive into Persuasion again. :D Hana, have you finished it?


message 10: by Hana (new)

Hana | 78 comments Mod
Almost! I'm at about Ch. 19, but have to knock of to, you know, do some work :D


Tadiana ✩Night Owl☽ | 108 comments Mod
I just work part-time for family reasons, but I need to get to work now too. I'll hit Persuasion hard tonight.


message 12: by Hana (new)

Hana | 78 comments Mod
I work part-time, too. At 63, after 20 years on Wall Street, I've earned the delightful chance to do what I love doing (teaching and financial coaching) and I get to play in between classes and sessions with clients.

Okay, back to the Powerpoints for my upcoming Index Fund Investing course....


message 13: by Samanta (new)

Samanta   (almacubana) That sounds fun! :D I'll be joining you with reading soon. I just have to finish Jane Eyre first.


message 14: by Hana (last edited Nov 05, 2014 01:54PM) (new)

Hana | 78 comments Mod
Samanta, enjoy Jane Eyre--it will make a very interesting contrast to Persuasion.

In the thread for Chapters 1-4 Qnpoohbear cites (and disagrees with) an academic introduction to her edition that views Wentworth as 'witty, brilliant, headstrong and therefore similar to Jane Austen's rakish characters who seek their own pleasure through luck and risk rather than through virtuous conduct and steady propriety.'

Chapter 8 is the proof that the academic view is totally wrong.

Even though the focus is on Anne's pain in this chapter, when we see Captain Wentworth at the Musgroves it is very clear that he is respected, and even deferred to. He handles Mrs Musgrove's foolish probing about her son with a great deal of tact and sensitivity.


message 15: by QNPoohBear (new)

QNPoohBear | 69 comments cH. 8 is so heartbreaking!
A quote I underlined is very telling ". Once she felt that he was looking at herself, observing her altered features, perhaps, trying to trace in them the ruins of the face which had once charmed him; and once she knew that he must have spoken of her..." She's so aware of him and what he thinks of her. Her sense of herself is heartbreaking. She doesn't dance which indicates she thinks of herself as no longer marriagable and the Musgroves don't even notice.

This kills me: "Anne did not wish for more of such looks and speeches. His cold politeness, his ceremonious grace, were worse than any thing." She wants to forget him but she can't and longs for his good opinion.


message 16: by Hana (new)

Hana | 78 comments Mod
Her self-esteem has been ripped to shreds. She's been verbally abused by her family for so many years. I haven't been keeping count, but she is belittled time and again by both her sisters and her father.

And now, to be on the receiving end of cold looks or even pointed comments or overheard remarks from her once-beloved is total devastation. He's not an insensitive man in general, but this is bad.

I wonder if Wentworth can possibly understand how hurt she is--and specifically how hurt she is by his behavior.


message 17: by Samanta (new)

Samanta   (almacubana) I don't think so....he is too hurt himself and thinks bad of her so he does not see what his behaviour and his words are doing to her.


message 18: by Hana (new)

Hana | 78 comments Mod
I tend to agree with you, Samanta, though there have been some suggestions in earlier threads that he is deliberately trying to hurt her. I'm going back and forth on that score. He may not be doing it consciously--I hope not anyway!

I think Anne is really good at hiding her feelings; She's learned that thanks to her toxic family. That's probably part of the problem--he may think she has no feelings for him or, worse yet, views him with contempt.


message 19: by Mary (new)

Mary Catelli | 48 comments Not to mention that if you meet an old flame and did not want to revive it, how would you act? It's not like there's some magical behavior that will make meeting you painless.


message 20: by Samanta (last edited Nov 07, 2014 07:54AM) (new)

Samanta   (almacubana) Hana wrote: "I tend to agree with you, Samanta, though there have been some suggestions in earlier threads that he is deliberately trying to hurt her. I'm going back and forth on that score. He may not be doing..."

He might not be hurting her verbaly on purpose, but he is definitely flirting on purpose. :D The question is, is he doing that for her or for himself. ;)


message 21: by Mary (new)

Mary Catelli | 48 comments Well, he does want to get married.


message 22: by Samanta (new)

Samanta   (almacubana) I was more in line of thinking he is doing this to prove to himself that he is over Anne. It's just...I just can't convince myself that a man like Wentworth, after being in love with a woman like Anne (no matter how bad that ended or how angry he is),would stoop so low and marry a silly girl.

Anyway, what is it with men and silly girls/women?!


message 23: by Hana (last edited Nov 07, 2014 08:45AM) (new)

Hana | 78 comments Mod
Yes, I think the flirting is deliberate but in Jane Austen's day and age leading a girl on that way was pretty dangerous. He's said that he's shopping for a wife, but throughout chapters 8-10 he seems to be dangling after the Musgrove girls in a way that could be misconstrued by the girls and their parents.


Tadiana ✩Night Owl☽ | 108 comments Mod
Hana wrote: "Yes, I think the flirting is deliberate but in Jane Austen's day and age leading a girl on that way was pretty dangerous."

Everybody hang onto that thought. :)

I don't think Wentworth ever deliberately tried to hurt Anne, other than by determinedly flirting with others in front of her, and treating her with cold politeness. I think his rude remarks about her appearance were made in shock, on the spur of the moment. His other remarks about valuing resoluteness and a determined heart, now those I believe he wanted Anne to hear.


message 25: by Hana (new)

Hana | 78 comments Mod
That's a good distinction, Tadiana. It absolutely makes sense that he wanted her to overhear the comments on resoluteness.

I had another completely different thought about the altered appearance comment that I'll note in the Chapter 17-19 thread.


message 26: by Mary (new)

Mary Catelli | 48 comments Tadiana wrote: "Hana wrote: "Yes, I think the flirting is deliberate but in Jane Austen's day and age leading a girl on that way was pretty dangerous."

Everybody hang onto that thought. :)"


Hang on REALLY HARD.


message 27: by Hana (new)

Hana | 78 comments Mod
Oooh! Read fast, everyone! I'm hanging out at Chapter 18 (a humdinger!) and dying of suspense :)) but I'll be good and wait for you all with Nicholas and Alexandra to keep me company. I'm signing off til Sunday--see you all then!


Tadiana ✩Night Owl☽ | 108 comments Mod
Hana, I'm surprised you have the fortitude to wait for everyone to catch up with you! Especially when this is your first time reading Persuasion. I'm in Chapter 19 now, but maybe I'll slow down too and enjoy the details and discussion before forging ahead again.


message 29: by QNPoohBear (new)

QNPoohBear | 69 comments I think Wentworth is really hurting and determined to show Anne that he is over her. He flirts with the Musgrove girls with an eye towards marrying one. Alas, this time HIS family doesn't approve. Sophy is an astute big sister. She knows her brother better than he knows himself. She wants him with someone good enough ... perhaps someone like Anne? Probably someone more like herseelf. Anne is wise too. She sees he is not in love with them and they are not in love with him either. They're very young and he's likely the first man from outside the neighborhood/schoolmates' brothers they've ever met. He's handsome, wealthy and a hero. What else can make a silly young lady's heart beat quickly?

One of my favorite scenes is in Ch. 9 when Wentworth takes little Walter off Anne's neck. He touched her! She's physically attracted to him and reels from the shock. He touched her again in Ch. 10. Her feelings go against everything she wants to believe about herself and what she's been taught. This is sexual attractiion, Jane Austen approved, at least that's what I have underlined from a class many years ago.

I love when Frederick helps Anne into the Crofts' carriage. Coming so soon after his condemnation of her but yet he's so kind and thoughtful. It shows a diffent side of him. He would like to think she refused Charles because she was still in love with him (Fred.) but his wounded pride wants to think she was too snobby to marry a squire's son.


message 30: by Samanta (new)

Samanta   (almacubana) A little bit of Jane Austen's humour:

"Personal size and mental sorrow have certainly no necessary proportions. A large and bulky figure has as good a right to be in deep affliction as the most graceful set of limbs in the world. But, fair or not fair, there are unbecoming conjunctions, which reason will patronize in vain-which taste cannot tolerate-which ridicule will seize"

I wonder if she had anyone in mind when she was writing this. :)


message 31: by Hana (new)

Hana | 78 comments Mod
She had such a sharp eye for human foibles!


message 32: by Hana (new)

Hana | 78 comments Mod
Qnpoohbear, I also loved the scene with little Walter. Ah how those fleeting touches inflamed passions in the olden days. North and South was full of those delights as well!


message 33: by Mary (new)

Mary Catelli | 48 comments it also depicts his character in action. We have, after all, only heard his attractiveness described.


message 34: by QNPoohBear (new)

QNPoohBear | 69 comments Hana wrote: "She had such a sharp eye for human foibles!"

She sure does. She skewers vain people like Walter Elliot. I'll quote the passage in the next thread. There is plenty of humor in this novel - it's just more subtle than in Pride and Prejudice.


message 35: by Marquise (new)

Marquise I have to say I almost wish they dumped Mary in some lake after her selfish comment to Anne in last chapter, because you can see the effect of it is that now Anne also "filters" Wentworth's behaviour through Mary's interpretation of his comment about how changed Anne was, despite the fact that he keeps giving her little hints that the feelings aren't as dead as she thinks.

The first crack in Wentworth's supposed polite coldness is when he takes little Walter off Anne's back when she's tending to the other, sick nephew. There you can see he does care for her still, so it's painful that she waves it away thinking he doesn't even want to be thanked and is avoiding being thanked. He again gives her another hint as to his feelings later, when they go for a walk as a group and he asks his sister to carry Anne back home in their carriage, because she's too tired, but she'd heard him and Louisa talking, and thinks he's just being polite and friendly. What he told Louisa was praise for herself, but Anne takes it as an indirect indictment of her character, her lack of firmness, which I don't think he's implying.

So thanks again for nothing, Mary!


message 36: by QNPoohBear (new)

QNPoohBear | 69 comments Marquise those little moments are why I love Wentworth so much. He tries so hard to flirt with Louisa but in his heart he can't be cold towards Anne. He's the only one who talks sense into that horrible kid and I just love when Wentworth puts his hand on Anne's back to help her into the carriage. A brief scene featuring sex appeal from Jane Austen.


message 37: by Marquise (new)

Marquise QNPoohBear wrote: "Marquise those little moments are why I love Wentworth so much. He tries so hard to flirt with Louisa but in his heart he can't be cold towards Anne. He's the only one who talks sense into that hor..."

Indeed! It was wonderful. I love these little gestures that are so telling and reveal so much without words. It's the best way to hint at the depth of feelings without actually spelling it out for the reader, and without overdoing the sexual tension as is common in romance.


message 38: by QNPoohBear (new)

QNPoohBear | 69 comments Marquise wrote: "QNPoohBear wrote: " It was wonderful. I love these little gestures that are so telling and reveal so much without words. It's the best way to hint at the depth of feelings without actually spelling it out for the reader, and without overdoing the sexual tension as is common in romance.
"


Yes exactly! A look, a touch, a small gesture ... those mean more to me in a romance than all the bodice ripping that happens in novels written in our time.


message 39: by Karlyne (new)

Karlyne Landrum | 102 comments QNPoohBear wrote: "Marquise wrote: "QNPoohBear wrote: " It was wonderful. I love these little gestures that are so telling and reveal so much without words. It's the best way to hint at the depth of feelings without ..."

There is nothing more physically romantic than the moment when two people look at each other and recognize themselves. It really is the small stuff that makes life worthwhile.


message 40: by Marquise (new)

Marquise Agree with both of you, QNPB and Karlyne. Many of my favourite romantic moments are neither sexual nor involve even a kiss. :)


message 41: by Marquise (new)

Marquise By the way, I found by pure chance this illustration of one of the two "small gestures"!


It's by Charles E. Brock for the illustrated edition, which I didn't know existed and am, of course, going to buy right now! I already have the illustrated S&S and P&P editions, and love both. :)


message 42: by Karlyne (new)

Karlyne Landrum | 102 comments Marquise wrote: "By the way, I found by pure chance this illustration of one of the two "small gestures"!


It's by Charles E. Brock for the illustrated edition, which I didn't know existed and am, of course, going..."


Oh, my, look at those curly-headed darlings!


message 43: by Marquise (new)

Marquise Aren't they beautiful? I'd recommend this edition if only for the illustrations, it's not expensive and I've seen that the artist also illustrated other Austen novels. Time for me to acquire new editions! :D

They can also be seen online if you can't get them, but for avoiding spoilers I've not seen them all yet, and will post a link to the online collection when we're finished.


message 44: by Andrea AKA Catsos Person (last edited Oct 21, 2015 12:54PM) (new)

Andrea AKA Catsos Person (catsosperson) | 70 comments I like these little clues that you all mention that indicate FW is not indifferent to Anne.

Sadly, I don't think that she is aware yet.


message 45: by QNPoohBear (last edited Oct 21, 2015 05:29PM) (new)

QNPoohBear | 69 comments No Anne still thinks Frederick loathes her for rejecting him. Her self-esteem is close to nil thanks to her awful father and sisters.

The C.E. Brock novels are available online for free http://www.mollands.net/etexts/persua...


message 46: by Karlyne (new)

Karlyne Landrum | 102 comments And being a woman, she takes to heart very much the comment about her altered looks.


message 47: by Marquise (new)

Marquise QNPoohBear wrote: "No Anne still thinks Frederick loathes her for rejecting him. Her self-esteem is close to nil thanks to her awful father and sisters.

The C.E. Brock novels are available online for free http://www..."


Thanks, QNPB! That's the site I meant, only that I didn't link yet to avoid spoilers until we're done reading.


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